Cyan Hirijikawa

Melee VS ranged classes / disadvantage

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range classes here have no disadvantage (lower hp/def) over melee. They have only profit in ranged attack form. *cricket* wizard should be more vulnerable than heavy armored guy with giant poleaxe imho.

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Kohashi   
4 hours ago, Zerecas said:

Because asking for some unnecessary boosts is equal to have the range classes getting screwed all over in other aspect, such as PvP.

 

But why is it related? Because Blade and Soul skill effects are universal which shares the same input throughout the PvP and PvE.

I've never heard of Blade and Soul developers making an exemption and applied a PvE-effect-only skill.

I don't know the motive behind of adding blue buff onto Assassin, perhaps it is to boost their performance as a dps role in PvE, but guess what?

If you boost melee in PvE, you boost them in PvP even further as if the current skill sets for them aren't enough, which is still laughable at their 'balance' as of now, just take a look at the top ranking.

 

PvE borderline and there we have got SSP and BlackWyrm, a mixture of PvP and PvE.

KFM've got upperhand with their evasion buff in OwPvP, so what kind of buff are you asking for, damage? To make them stronger than before while owning a bunch of players with the 1v6 dream? etc.

Ever heard of range classes tanking BlackWyrm perfectly? Never in my case.

 

 

________________________________________

Besides, as a range class won't save you from the death that much in SSP,

Both Mane bosses and Captain bosses all have the AoE that hit even the range classes. If you got the aggro, you're as good as a corpse, because we don't have spam-able blocking skill nor resistance skills that save us from melee and AoE hit.

 

If you think its all easy and cool to play FM in PvE then go ahead, every roles are expected to be perform by FM if in case, FM got the aggro, which is highly likely to be happen. Main dps, tank, support roles all in one run, are you prepare for that? Furthermore, if your party have melee players in it, instead of running and hitting, you'd better be standing still or close to the boss so the melee can dps too, in this case. are you a range or a melee without block and resist? In this case, are you prepare for this too?

Since when SSP is considered a pvp event? Lets be real that it's PVE all day and specially with all the faction domination in place these days. Plus the person specifically referred to arena, ladder/rank type of scenarios and not SSP.

 

And yes it's extremely easy to play FM in PVE and level up. Have you ever tried to play a KFM, for example, into grimhorn valley (let's say) .

 

As for the the aggro that FM  get in a dungeon there are couple reason why this can happen.

 

1. the FM rushed to the boss and hit it and build enough aggro to it and now he/she is kitting (something you should NEVER do in BnS) and well in your fault for starting the boss.

2. the tank is complete garbage and either

a. has no aggro spec

b. cant do a competent skill rotation even if his life depended on it.

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TooNoob   

I also main a BD! and my friend mains a FM, used to be a SIN, but he changed when SSP released..

 

I know some people say SSP is doable for Melees, IMO i think it is only doable when u have 10k crit and no lag and fps is kind to you. (sarcasm) 

 

As a 510+BD I can't finish SSP quest in 1 run, i have to do it in 3 to 4 runs, my friend's FM 400+ 1 run just done. he doesn't have to chase the hog. if there is lag he just SS out of the AOE (BECAUSE FM CAN SPEC 14M). if i lag my SS won't land me outside the AOE but STILL IN THE AOE, and the lag kills me either way cause i can't run out. 

 

If being range wont save u from death in SSP or other dungeon one thing for certain is, (in SSP)you'll definitely get the loot even if u go in at 400 AP.

Farming moonstones for FM? no problem.

 

Sins are very weird, u get a good sin who is not boastful and u get a bad sin who boasts look at my SS i went to ASURA MANY TIMES. and then first to KO in yeti. LOL. But yes Sins are awesome, i loved the buff.. too bad my friend went FM.

 

TBH i dont think BD has high DPS at all. nope. NEVER! even though i main a BD, i think of myself as a support DPS

It's true that the ratio in FM skills are high therefore allowing high dps. but u ever meet some poop FM who just DGAF and kites the boss? my friend is the one.

 

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Jaite   

In short, based on the discussions in here

 

Ranges do most the work such as dps, support, tank, CC, understands melee and range mechanics because melees will rage otherwise.

 

Melees only dps and blames range for everything and above. Doesn't care about mechanics as long as they get loots and have name on threat showing.

 

Every thread about melee suffering starts with "they pewpewpes for free" and ends with "there are no range mechanics". It makes sense why melees are upset about all this. They don't have to do as much or learn range mechanics. So how would they know what being range is like?? Where as most range have to play like melees or else die in 1 hit from range mechanics. 

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1 hour ago, TooNoob said:

 

 

As a 510+BD I can't finish SSP quest in 1 run, i have to do it in 3 to 4 runs, my friend's FM 400+ 1 run just done. he doesn't have to chase the hog. if there is lag he just SS out of the AOE (BECAUSE FM CAN SPEC 14M). if i lag my SS won't land me outside the AOE but STILL IN THE AOE, and the lag kills me either way cause i can't run out. 

 

 

you are talking about lags... BD with right spec can be at least 15 seconds totally invulnerable while still dpsing. Your problem is not being melee, but having crap connection.

 

//SS gives you iframe, its not about running out of aoe with it. You obviously don't know how to handle your class.

Edited by SilentOne

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Zerecas   
2 hours ago, Kohashi said:

Since when SSP is considered a pvp event? Lets be real that it's PVE all day and specially with all the faction domination in place these days. Plus the person specifically referred to arena, ladder/rank type of scenarios and not SSP.

And yes it's extremely easy to play FM in PVE and level up. Have you ever tried to play a KFM, for example, into grimhorn valley (let's say) .

As for the the aggro that FM  get in a dungeon there are couple reason why this can happen.

1. the FM rushed to the boss and hit it and build enough aggro to it and now he/she is kitting (something you should NEVER do in BnS) and well in your fault for starting the boss.

2. the tank is complete garbage and either

a. has no aggro spec

b. cant do a competent skill rotation even if his life depended on it.

Since when did I said SSP is a PvP event? I said it's a mixture of both. It has both mobs and players as an opponent, it's a fact regardless of faction domination.

Like I said, seeing how Blade and soul works, the boost of one class will impact the entire aspect of this game has. Guess I don't have to explain much on this, do I? Not sure why did you even consider leveling as a part of the key point of being disadvantages, you leveled once and move on, that's it.

 

In addition, a good tank class user will get the aggro regardless if he or the FM hit the boss first. I've seen 'tank' melees hit the bosses first and still allow the FM to get the aggro.

Your point being? Useless players that can't serve their own class purpose?

And I've seen good tank melees that can actually get aggro regardless of other classes hitting the bosses first or not.

Excellent tankers do not let the dps classes to slow down their own dps as their primary role is nothing but to dps, assume their gear is on par.

 

If they can't serve their own purpose and their own supposed role in a PvE, is it because of their lack of understanding towards their own classes, inertia towards learning mechanism because they expected ranged classes to do their roles as well? Either way, those are in no way a faulty from the game.

 

I stay in melee range as a ranged class too, because I often get aggro, and I want everyone on my party to at least, deal damages so the overall performance is greater.

But, if I can survive from the bosses in a melee range as a supposedly ranged class without spam-able blocking skill, what makes you, the melee with appropriate skill set to survive in close combat, not able to survive?

 

None of the dungeons currently exist in NA/EU is actually THAT difficult once we understand how the mechanism of each boss works.

Me as a range class with 60k+ HP, will still die from 2 hit of different vast AoE attack from a SSP boss too, is there any big difference to be honest? Asides of chasing that unimportant bosses named Rhizo in the middle of SSP process.

 

People keeps saying they can't perform themselves as usual because of the fps drop occurs in SSP run, but you know. That's totally irrelevant to how the class system here works. It's like telling the developers to make every classes' skill not to be ping dependent because not everyone have the right ping to maximize the potential of what a class is capable of, especially in PvP. Obviously those players are pointing at the wrong topic to begin with, please go to technical issue section.

 

 

_____________________

Also, do the ranged classes have to specifically make a thread to complain about how the melee took all the top PvP spots too?

 

Edited by Zerecas

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Xelo   

I have a L50 BD as well as a L50 FM, and I love to play both of them. Both of them are able to deal heavy damage and provide support to the team, too.

 

But you have to learn to play your class(es). Just pressing LMB and RMB will not get you far. ;)

 

Besides L2P issues and lag/ping problems, however, I think the problem also lies in the way how the game calculates event participation. Just adding up damage numbers and comparing them to a threshold value is probably easy to program, but its not an adequate way to do it.

And it's not only in SSP. Golden Harvest Village is another example where the game system shows its weaknesses.

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7 hours ago, Zedonia said:

It's interesting. You complain about range classes is so much easier and whatever, but you want to chill the *cricket* out in the dungeons by yourself as melee. AOE are shit, I have to move too much and whatever. Wtf is wrong with you? BnS offers a gameplay which isn't boring as hell because you can manipulate the battle very hard. You can do every dungeon without getting hit once if you have the skill but I think exactly that's the problem. People only want it easy as hell so they have to complain about every shit. Just learn to play your class and to know the boss mechanics. I never saw a good player in any game complaining about such shit.

 

And for that about being range is easy dps from behind: No, it's not always that way. Especially as fm without a tank class in the group, you have to tank almost everything except you lack heavily on gear compared to others or you simply playing bad. Playing range isn't brainless at all. Boss mechanics don't allow that because there are always attacks you have to dodge or move away or whatever. Melee isn't harder at all, at least in dungeons. SSP is another thing but also not impossible for melee.

 

After all, everyone should play the class he likes not the class which might be the easiest/best. I wouldn't kick any class because of that specific class because all classes are fine. I don't see destro very helpful but well, I might be wrong. And like Lunakitty, I love BD. I have a not max. Level one by myself and he can solo world bosses so wtf should be wrong with being melee? Endgame bosses like yeti or asura aren't harder to tank than a lv. 30 world boss so please stop saying such nonsense like range is sooo much better.

Sorry but this friend of ours looks like had argument about this before. i will apologize before hand again if i have a grammar mistakes. Sorry

Now lets talk about real issue, i think you are the one needs to chil.l let's answer to you.

 

My main is kfm.I have a sin and a wl as my alts lastly i did played summoner at CH server before so i think i know advantages of being ranged. The reason why my main kfm is thrill. My opinion is ranged ones are quite boring.

 

 

As a example Mane type evolved bosses at ssp, this one is quite handy for melee classes because they are fast and have a lot of short ranged aoe attacks and yes like all the ranged players said has few long range aoe attacks. Let me tell you that attacks, 1 blockable and 3-4 unblockable (red aoe) attacks. Ranged classes only needs to iframe that attacks when melee classes all short and long range attacks. So blocking,counter and iframing all this attacks hard and if you made a mistake you will become a corpse (he has nice combos :3 ) with no chance to do chi thing, by the way you have to do damage between them. Maybe thats the reason all the melee classes higher stars than ranged classes at character creating page.

Oh before forgetting if you have the aggro, he will pull you. Doesn't matter which class you are even if a melee has the aggro and try to escape, surely he will die. (i gave this example because i lost more than 1k prestige points to Manes today ^^)

Most of the bosses like him. Yes, different patterns, diferent attack but same logic. As long as you don't have the aggro you need to iframe only few attacks

 

Someone said he is a fm and doing all the job like supporting,tanking and dps. Please kill the asura by yourself Mr. pro.

 

Tanking; bms and kfms are tank classes. if you know few proper ones you  would understand what i am telling you. I think fms shouldnt tank and dont think them as a tank class. you are not tanking, running around. As long as you don't spec threat or have higher ap than tank you can't get the aggro if you got it that means tank is not a good tank or you spec for threat, check your skills

 

Supporting; every class has one or another support skill. some of them are; kfm's blue buff, wl's soulburn, sin's blue buff and stealth(they can make party members too), summoner's healing and stealth, bd's defensive thing and gripping, destroyer's gripping.

 

i don't think we need to talk about dps.

 

Pvp; i don't want to argue about it, totally personel skill, planning and making right decisions.

 

So shortly, playing as a summoner  really easy even game developers saying same thing. So whatever you or i say doesn't change the fact people changed their mains to ranged from melee so they can farm things with easy. i saw,read and talked with some of them about it. i love kfm so i will continue to play as my main but my alts for farming. 

 

 

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Kohashi   
1 hour ago, Zerecas said:

Since when did I said SSP is a PvP event? I said it's a mixture of both. It has both mobs and players as an opponent, it's a fact regardless of faction domination.

Like I said, seeing how Blade and soul works, the boost of one class will impact the entire aspect of this game has. Guess I don't have to explain much on this, do I? Not sure why did you even consider leveling as a part of the key point of being disadvantages, you leveled once and move on, that's it.

 

In addition, a good tank class user will get the aggro regardless if he or the FM hit the boss first. I've seen 'tank' melees hit the bosses first and still allow the FM to get the aggro.

Your point being? Useless players that can't serve their own class purpose?

And I've seen good tank melees that can actually get aggro regardless of other classes hitting the bosses first or not.

Excellent tankers do not let the dps classes to slow down their own dps as their primary role is nothing but to dps, assume their gear is on par.

 

If they can't serve their own purpose and their own supposed role in a PvE, is it because of their lack of understanding towards their own classes, inertia towards learning mechanism because they expected ranged classes to do their roles as well? Either way, those are in no way a faulty from the game.

 

I stay in melee range as a ranged class too, because I often get aggro, and I want everyone on my party to at least, deal damages so the overall performance is greater.

But, if I can survive from the bosses in a melee range as a supposedly ranged class without spam-able blocking skill, what makes you, the melee with appropriate skill set to survive in close combat, not able to survive?

 

None of the dungeons currently exist in NA/EU is actually THAT difficult once we understand how the mechanism of each boss works.

Me as a range class with 60k+ HP, will still die from 2 hit of different vast AoE attack from a SSP boss too, is there any big difference to be honest? Asides of chasing that unimportant bosses named Rhizo in the middle of SSP process.

 

People keeps saying they can't perform themselves as usual because of the fps drop occurs in SSP run, but you know. That's totally irrelevant to how the class system here works. It's like telling the developers to make every classes' skill not to be ping dependent because not everyone have the right ping to maximize the potential of what a class is capable of, especially in PvP. Obviously those players are pointing at the wrong topic to begin with, please go to technical issue section.

 

 

_____________________

Also, do the ranged classes have to specifically make a thread to complain about how the melee took all the top PvP spots too?

 

 lets move away from ssp because there is no point talking about it. 

 

as for you hitting the boss first and then expecting the tank to re-gain aggro let me.. laugh like, really hard about it. Do you even know how threat builds on bosses because from you whole thing it doesnt looks like you actually do.  

My philosophy is very easy regardless of game: you hit first the boss and you cant wait 10 seconds for me to aggro it, you get the pleasure to tank it and if you cry about it, I have exactly 0 care factor and an empty care cup for you ready.

 

Knowing the boss mechanics and understand how bosses attack , in which pattern and what you need to do, is actually valid for every single game out there not just BnS but what this has to do with anything?

 

In BnS most bosses have 80% if not more short range attacks which aims melee. You dont even have to bother moving or do anything to avoid those so, i dare you to prove me otherwise.

 

have you ever seen in this game something like...

HPNMwgk.png

 

or maybe something like

 

ngytjc.png

this.. or maybe.....

spells which specifically target random range members...like

 BKQiYcv.png 

 

I sure haven't seen any of that... so do even dare saying range classes require a lot of skill in BnS because that's straight up bs!~

Edited by Kohashi

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Archess   
1 hour ago, Jaite said:

In short, based on the discussions in here

 

Ranges do most the work such as dps, support, tank, CC, understands melee and range mechanics because melees will rage otherwise.

 

Melees only dps and blames range for everything and above. Doesn't care about mechanics as long as they get loots and have name on threat showing.

 

Every thread about melee suffering starts with "they pewpewpes for free" and ends with "there are no range mechanics". It makes sense why melees are upset about all this. They don't have to do as much or learn range mechanics. So how would they know what being range is like?? Where as most range have to play like melees or else die in 1 hit from range mechanics. 

Whatever you have been snorting or shooting, i need some.

 

I have a couple of classes at lvl 45-50... KFM, WL, Destro, SMN, BM, FM, on most fight with FM & SMN you just bypass half the mechanics, you either lock down the mob so hard it can't move or you kite it around till it dies, everytime the mob stops todo its aoe attacks you just stand there and get free DPS time.

 

It is very noticble for instance when you get to 45 and go fresh to Mushin Tower with 16-18k ehp blue soulshield 352 ap, with the KFM, BM, Destro you are sweating and working your ass off to get to floor 4, at floor 5 you barely have enough dps to make the check, so you stall on floor 5, with the FM, SMN & WL you enter, watch some youtube on screen 2 as you work your way up to Juhangdo without any effort on your part, just mash LB+RB & F and kill him within the time limit.

 

This extends to every other field in this game.

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Tsunakai   

In dungeons? seriously? 

Here melee, have twice the defensive skills as ranged, then complain about having to use them. Then complain because dungeon bosses are rough on melee, while an FM tanks in melee range (which you must do in order to keep the boss relatively still) and never gets hit. This ez moding FM took the time to learn the bosses melee attack patterns, while none of the melee did.

 

aka get gud.

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Tsunakai   

Btw, the hardest hitting aoes from terrors on SSP have a range of or up to 16m, which is the max range of FM/WL/Sum, pretty much everything else is just a noodle.

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Zerecas   
8 minutes ago, Kohashi said:

 lets move away from ssp because there is no point talking about it. 

as for you hitting the boss first and then expecting the tank to re-gain aggro let me.. laugh like, really hard about it. Do you even know how threat builds on bosses because from you whole thing it doesnt looks like you actually do.  

My philosophy is very easy regardless of game: you hit first  the boss first and you cant wait 10 seconds for me to aggro it, you get the pleasure to tank  it and if you cry about it I have exactly 0 care factor and an empty care cup for you ready.

Knowing the boss mechanics and understand who bosses attack and in which pattern and what you need to do is actually valid for every single game out there not just BnS but what this has to do with anything?

In BnS most bosses have 80% if not more short range attacks which aims melee. You dont even have to bother moving or do anything and i dare you to prove me otherwise.

have you ever seen in this game something like...

or maybe something like

this.. or maybe.....

spells which specifically target random range members...like

  I sure haven't seen any of that... so do even dare saying range classes require a lot of skill in BnS because that's straight up bs!~

Laugh all you want. Excellent tankers just as I said, assume gears are on par, are capable of regaining aggro. Not like my first time experience it.

Tankers without threat build is nothing, the aggro will still be on main dps classes regardless if you hit it first or not. At this point, if it isn't the 'tankers' fault, then I don't know what it is.

 

Knowing the boss mechanism is important, so do your class, validate to every game but yet, not everyone does it, no?

If everyone understand this, then dps will actually get to be just dps, tank will actually be a tank, but that's not the case over here, isn't it? Because they don't really understand, like someone said, we use SS to iframe, not getting out of AoE, because his attempt of getting out of AoE in SSP is impossible due to the massive AoE. Obviously, he don't understand this clearly.

 

Instead of picking sentences and words from my entire reply just to make an 'argument', how about you read it all for once. 

No one cries about range classes tanking boss, that's our everyday scenario, we're gotten used to it more than you do.

No one says X class required a lot of skills in Blade and Soul, I simply point out that a geared FM is more than just pewpewpew. Of course, if you're under-geared, obviously you won't be getting any aggro and just pewpewpew for good. I mentioned Excellent/ good tanker but never did I mention excellent dps because apparently in BnS, excellent tankers are rare while dps usage is simply, just use your skills at the bosses.

 

As for your statement where you spoke about "In BnS most bosses have 80% if not more short range attacks which aims melee. You dont even have to bother moving or do anything and i dare you to prove me otherwise."  ...

I don't really get this one but if you mean ranged classes don't bother moving because of bosses are mostly doing melee hit then, I can only agree for a bit. Like I said again and again, assume gears are on par, and most of the time in Cross server dungeon, tankers over there mostly don't know how to tank for good. In this case, dps classes will be getting aggro, in this case that 80% melee attack applies to whoever the dps range class is, and yes, I'm capable of making bosses stay still most of the time. Not confidence enough to say it about Asura due to lack of spam-able defensive skill and SSP bosses (fps drop on this), but for all other bosses, yes I can.

 

Not sure about the point of posting screenshots of other MMO, I mean, it's different game.

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Archess   
1 hour ago, Zerecas said:

In addition, a good tank class user will get the aggro regardless if he or the FM hit the boss first. I've seen 'tank' melees hit the bosses first and still allow the FM to get the aggro.

I dont think you know how most Melee's agro work.

 

In my spec i have a ranged engage as a KFM to open up with that sits on a 12 second cooldown, this on its own does very minimal initial agro, we have an AOE on a 45s cooldown and we mainly gain aggro from our Counter skill, if you rip aggro from us before we got it locked down, this means we need to counter one or two times, if not well good luck, you can keep the aggro, because my next ability is 12 seconds out and will do hardly didley squat because you have the agro and are kiting it away from me.

 

Since you are now kiting it away from me at full burn, i have a hard time hitting it as opposed to your 5-8-20k crits that all land from range, i cant counter any of its attacks because you are doing your utmost best to keep it facing away from me, even if i have my aoe attack that adds some aggro, by the time it goes off, the mob will have moved out of range, so i have to burn my iframes to get in front, miss-managing my cooldowns that i need to live through the fight, all burned to regain the aggro you are keeping from me.

 

All you are allowing me to recover aggro from you is my 12s cooldown gap closer that deals 500 damage at best.

 

So by the time you die, i will have burned through everything and now get smacked around by some unforseen or mistimed attacks because it was chasing you.

 

Your definition of a good tank are those ones in your party who are lucky enough to open up with 1 or 2*24k Comet Strike hits to have enough initial agro to ride it out till they can Counter one or two times, then they keep aggro solidly through the fight.

 

It is rare for me to ever lose aggro after ive countered once or twice.

17 minutes ago, Zerecas said:

we use SS to iframe, not getting out of AoE, because his attempt of getting out of AoE in SSP is impossible due to the massive AoE. Obviously, he don't understand this clearly.

When you SS away from the Red AOE and mistimed it as a melee as in we have to pre-time it before it goes off, you are still within the AOE to get hit, you roll backwards and can often at times get hit by other attacks, if you are at 16m away as a ranged class and SS backwards you are free and clear of the AOE even if you mistimed it and any and all follow up attacks.

 

edit:

I know you are trying to sugar-coat it that ranged classes have harsher lives then melee with our "double amount of iframes", but i also play a Force Master @515 ap where my main KFM has 535 ap and after mastering my KFM, FM is just easymode, ive saved up 2.3k gold and am currently awaiting Soulfighter before upgrading anything else, i love playing Melee but the lag or framestutter coupled to melee range is hell and one lagspike can ruin a perfect tankrun.

 

Edited by Archess

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Shukran   

to me it is the opposite. i can understand i suck in dungeons. but i cannot stand on OWPVP being forced to spit blood to gain something a ranged class can earn with a "yawn".

 

as i always state. ragend classes loses 90% of the content. (but who cares)

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Zerecas   
20 minutes ago, Archess said:

I dont think you know how most Melee's agro work.

In my spec i have a ranged engage as a KFM to open up with that sits on a 12 second cooldown, this on its own does very minimal initial agro, we have an AOE on a 45s cooldown and we mainly gain aggro from our Counter skill, if you rip aggro from us before we got it locked down, this means we need to counter one or two times, if not well good luck, you can keep the aggro, because my next ability is 12 seconds out and will do hardly didley squat because you have the agro and are kiting it away from me.

Since you are now kiting it away from me at full burn, i have a hard time hitting it as opposed to your 5-8-20k crits that all land from range, i cant counter any of its attacks because you are doing your utmost best to keep it facing away from me, even if i have my aoe attack that adds some aggro, by the time it goes off, the mob will have moved out of range, so i have to burn my iframes to get in front, miss-managing my cooldowns that i need to live through the fight, all burned to regain the aggro you are keeping from me.

All you are allowing me to recover aggro from you is my 12s cooldown gap closer that deals 500 damage at best.

So by the time you die, i will have burned through everything and now get smacked around by some unforseen or mistimed attacks because it was chasing you.

Your definition of a good tank are those ones in your party who are lucky enough to open up with 1 or 2*24k Comet Strike hits to have enough initial agro to ride it out till they can Counter one or two times, then they keep aggro solidly through the fight.

It is rare for me to ever lose aggro after ive countered once or twice.

I genuinely have no idea of how KFM works, but I am just speaking out of what I have experienced so far.

But then again, in my post, I mentioned of gears are on par, if the stats from both players are big in difference, obviously the one with higher AP & Crit gets it regardless of your class. Do read up my previous post, I don't care if I got the aggro, that's our everyday situation as a range class.

 

I don't kite when there's melee on the party, I make sure the bosses don't move that much, or better yet, stay still. If I can't really tank it anymore, then I can simply stop attacking or freeze myself up until someone else got it for awhile. But the point is, given that the range classes got the aggro, how on earth do you, the melee dies from it as a result, like dying earlier than the aggro'd range users, dafuq? We're talking about dungeon mainly as OP posted this topic revolves around dungeon.

 

I don't know how KFM aggro skills and its cooldown works once again, but if we're to wait you to establish a solid aggro when the boss have timer, we'd better be charge at it rather than wasting time risking a fail run. Players let tanker to aggro BlackWyrm for a minute or so because there's no timer but that isn't the case in most of the Heroic dungeon.

 

 

____

Again, if you think FM or other range classes is so great, then go ahead and play it as a geared player, especially for geared FM, come back and tell me if you're playing the melee way or an actual range play style most of the time. I can guarantee you its melee most of the time. :> Unless you don't freaking care about your melee party members not dealing damage and decrease the overall output.

Edited by Zerecas

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Kohashi   
5 minutes ago, Archess said:

I dont think you know how most Melee's agro work.

9306e80f36a226366b7729068b4da96a.jpg

 

thank you!

 

@Zerecas

please... just stop... seriously..

 

Most bosses build aggro in the first minute and specially in the first 10-15 seconds of the initial engage.

 

Sure garbage tanks are in every single game but, it's a lot harder for a tank to get aggro back because 99% of ranged classes are trying to kite the boss. please do play a KFM , try to do dungeons, level up and ssp and then compare the amount of gear you need, the skill and the way everything is deigned from a Melee perspective.

I assure you, you will stop saying all of those thing after you did :)

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Archess   
23 minutes ago, Archess said:

I know you are trying to sugar-coat it that ranged classes have harsher lives then melee with our "double amount of iframes", but i also play a Force Master @515 ap where my main KFM has 535 ap and after mastering my KFM, FM is just easymode, ive saved up 2.3k gold and am currently awaiting Soulfighter before upgrading anything else, i love playing Melee but the lag or framestutter coupled to melee range is hell and one lagspike can ruin a perfect tankrun.

I had just added this to my previous post, as i DO have a geared FM.

7 minutes ago, Zerecas said:

I genuinely have no idea of how KFM works, but I am just speaking out of what I have experienced so far.

But then again, in my post, I mentioned of gears are on par, if the stats from both players are big in difference, obviously the one with higher AP & Crit gets it regardless of your class. Do read up my previous post, I don't care if I got the aggro, that's our everyday situation as a range class.

 

I don't kite when there's melee on the party, I make sure the bosses don't move that much, or better yet, stay still. But the point is, given that the range classes got the aggro, how on earth do you, the melee dies from it as a result, like dying earlier than the aggro'd range users, dafuq? We're talking about dungeon mainly as OP posted this topic revolves around dungeon.

 

I don't know how KFM aggro skills and its cooldown works once again, but if we're to wait you to establish a solid aggro when the boss have timer, we'd better be charge at it rather than wasting time risking a fail run. Players let tanker to aggro BlackWyrm for a minute or so because there's no timer but that isn't the case in most of the Heroic dungeon.

Again, if you think FM or other range classes is so great, then go ahead and play it as a geared player, especially for geared FM, come back and tell me if you're playing the melee way or an actual range play style most of the time. I can guarantee you its melee most of the time. :> Unless you don't freaking care about your melee party members not dealing damage and decrease the overall output.

Most ranged classes i group with just go derp deeps on a mob and whatever happens because of it, its the noobs tank fault anyways, all they have todo is DPS and thats what they did so how can it be their fault?

 

I don't ussually die in groups as i am ussually the last one standing, but i can asure you that the only way for us to regain aggro is to counter, we have to watch out for melee attacks, AOE's, mechanics, it is not a far stretch to think that when a melee is pressured into the idea of having to regain aggro at all costs, he is going to burn abilities that he needs, mismanage iframes etc and end up dead to a mechanic or 2, while ranged classes can die from 2-3 hits, a melee is in that regard exactly the same, you east 3 fist sandwishes with 50k health as a melee, you die, same as a ranged class.

 

In 4 man Yeti that we 3 man, i make one single "oops" due to a lagspike or an error on my part and i end up with 10% health left because of subsequent attacks hitting me that i can't evade, because of "mechanics" the F lags out to roll backwards and yer *cricket*ed.

 

 

Personally, with the state of the server, the random lagspikes, skill press delays, obnoxious e-peenists that know your class better then you but play a ranged class anyways, i can't really give a flying *cricket* anymore to go into a group and tank it for them, every party i join has either 3 FM's, 1 WL & 1 SMN or a combination of those 3 with me as a KFM,

 

So i started a FM, their iframes are easier to use then a KFM's, if you never played a KFM they feel delayed by 0.2-0.3 seconds as opposed to instant on the FM, whatever i am doing in a group, its always A-OK, i can watch youtube and LB + RB & F all day and noone notices. As opposed to on the KFM if i move to much to the left, its stop moving, if i make an iframe mistake, noob, if i loose agro, WTF WTF, and so on....

 

It is very tiresome and at some point, it stops being funny, then you roll a FM and the game is completely diffrent and fun.

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Zerecas   
20 minutes ago, Kohashi said:

@Zerecas

please... just stop... seriously..

 

Most bosses build aggro in the first minute and specially in the first 10-15 seconds of the initial engage.

 

Sure garbage tanks are in every single game but, it's a lot harder for a tank to get aggro back because 99% of ranged classes are trying to kite the boss. please do play a KFM , try to do dungeons, level up and ssp and then compare the amount of gear you need, the skill and the way everything is deigned from a Melee perspective.

I assure you, you will stop saying all of those thing after you did :)

Unfortunately as much as I wanted to play awesome animation-cancel classes such as KFM, but I'm afraid that my ping won't allow this to happen.

 

Gains aggro with a minute, I don't even. Unless you set up a solid party who can afford to watch you hitting the boss for a minute or so, and without risking the timer ends before the boss die, then sure.

 

This video is one example, need I say more? L2P and git gud. "Initial 10 seconds and that ridiculous 1 minute setup"

 

FM taking lead, how are you range now? No one's telling you to SS/EE/QQ everything you see.

Edited by Zerecas

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Zerecas   
8 minutes ago, Archess said:

I had just added this to my previous post, as i DO have a geared FM.

Most ranged classes i group with just go derp deeps on a mob and whatever happens because of it, its the noobs tank fault anyways, all they have todo is DPS and thats what they did so how can it be their fault?

I don't ussually die in groups as i am ussually the last one standing, but i can asure you that the only way for us to regain aggro is to counter, we have to watch out for melee attacks, AOE's, mechanics, it is not a far stretch to think that when a melee is pressured into the idea of having to regain aggro at all costs, he is going to burn abilities that he needs, mismanage iframes etc and end up dead to a mechanic or 2, while ranged classes can die from 2-3 hits, a melee is in that regard exactly the same, you east 3 fist sandwishes with 50k health as a melee, you die, same as a ranged class.

In 4 man Yeti that we 3 man, i make one single "oops" due to a lagspike or an error on my part and i end up with 10% health left because of subsequent attacks hitting me that i can't evade, because of "mechanics" the F lags out to roll backwards and yer *cricket*ed.

Personally, with the state of the server, the random lagspikes, skill press delays, obnoxious e-peenists that know your class better then you but play a ranged class anyways, i can't really give a flying *cricket* anymore to go into a group and tank it for them, every party i join has either 3 FM's, 1 WL & 1 SMN or a combination of those 3 with me as a KFM,

So i started a FM, their iframes are easier to use then a KFM's, if you never played a KFM they feel delayed by 0.2-0.3 seconds as opposed to instant on the FM, whatever i am doing in a group, its always A-OK, i can watch youtube and LB + RB & F all day and noone notices. As opposed to on the KFM if i move to much to the left, its stop moving, if i make an iframe mistake, noob, if i loose agro, WTF WTF, and so on....

It is very tiresome and at some point, it stops being funny, then you roll a FM and the game is completely diffrent and fun.

Not sugar coating, simply stating that range class has it own perception of dealing with problems and so do melee, and again, you don't see range classes complain about melee taking up the top PvP spot.

 

As for the KFM iframe delay, I think it just a matter of adapting to it, I mean, I'm playing with 250ms+, I've got used to the iframe moment from QQ/EE/SS. The only thing I can't do with 250ms is channeling skills quick enough and ani-cancel. But doesn't change the fact that a range class can survive in melee distance, if range class is capable of such feat, so do melee.

 

And to be honest, 513AP is pretty standard nowadays, no active clan members on my side are under 520, with the Nebula event strikes in, many players are at True Breeze point and above already, I myself is at 562AP... 

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Kohashi   

lol when you admit you dont know what a kfm does or whats about just stop there. Do you know how the kfm opened the fight?..let me clue you in... with guiding first which provides 10seconds 150% threat. Did you see the sorc attack first? no... did you see the guy losing aggro no. Do i see the sorc pushing 2 buttons 99% of the fight, damn right i did.  Much skill! please teach me..

 

Do you see the sorc going for first hit in necro? NO... do you see sorc kitting no? this is what happens in ideal cases. how many groups that you que with managed to be like this. probably under 5%...lol

 

anyway this is actually pointless. When people tell you that you are drunk , you go to bed.

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Archess   

 

5 minutes ago, Zerecas said:

Not sugar coating, simply stating that range class has it own perception of dealing with problems and so do melee, and again, you don't see range classes complain about melee taking up the top PvP spot.

 

As for the KFM iframe delay, I think it just a matter of adapting to it, I mean, I'm playing with 250ms+, I've got used to the iframe moment from QQ/EE/SS. The only thing I can't do with 250ms is channeling skills quick enough and ani-cancel. But doesn't change the fact that a range class can survive in melee distance, if range class is capable of such feat, so do melee.

 

And to be honest, 513AP is pretty standard nowadays, no active clan members on my side are under 520, with the Nebula event strikes in, many players are at True Breeze point and above already, I myself is at 562AP... 

I play with 18ms, so it should be flawless without issues, but with lagspikes, skill delays on the EU servers, it is not playeble for a melee, the first 3 months i tought i had to git guud, then one day i installed WTFast and everything was instantly better, faster respones etc while having double my initial delay +- 32-46ms.

 

Not sure why it happens as ive tried literally everything, even getting a new router and entire new internal network for my home.

 

Like i said, my FM has an easier time iframing attacks in melee range then with the KFM, even while ive adapted to the initial Delay, i think it has todo with the animations on the KFM, they have to end first, then 0.3s delay, then iframe the attack, but if your Tripple kick animation takes 0.5 seconds, +0.3s iframe delay, the FM has short attack animations, besically just extenting its palm to fire, the KFM has animations you need to ride out before you can move again etc, so you are often too late to dodge as on my FM i can easely iframe opponents that are jumping to me in mid air, i can not do this on the KFM, i have a personal reaction speed of 180ms on average, but on the KFM i need to anticipate the jump, on the FM i just have to react.

 

So in a nutshel as ive felt from experience, as a KFM you need to know what the npc is going todo and plan your attacks accordingly, with the FM you can just play on reaction speed to what you see and be fine.

 

As for the low AP on my characters, i said i had 2.3k gold and ive got enough mats to bring one char to True Scorpio, but as it sits, i need to try out Soulfighter so i have not upgraded a thing since the start of the level 50 patch.

 

If Soulfighter reacts like FM but has melee attacks, then RIP another Tank as i will just join the ranks of Pew Pew with some melee moves thrown in for flavor.

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Dlacik   

About getting back agro. I would say it heavily depends on what the one with agro do.

If FM starts with his dps slowly (getting burn up, getting the dragonblaze buff up...). I can use five point strike to get agro back, then block to get my threat buff up and hold the agro.

 

But if he starts with his long cd skills there is no way i would get the agro back for the rest of fight.

It`s pretty simple... My five point strike deals about 20k dmg and has the +300% threat bonus... that means it does about 80k threat. With his long CD skills the FM can easily do over 100k burst dmg -> geting more threat than my FPS gives me. Then if he kites the boss around  then i can`t block -> i will never have the +150% threat buff and i can`t land my high dmg skills either. Because blade call is aoe with delay and HM lightning draw does bigger part of its dmg as aoe.

So if you want to hit the boss first at least don`t use the big skills immediately.

 

But if you let me engage boss first and block his first attack i will gain +150% threat buff and then do the five point strike. Because the extra threat of FPS stacks with threat buff from cyclone my 20k hit from FPS means i get 200k threat. That creates nice margin and you can dps without worring about getting agro.

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58 minutes ago, Zerecas said:

Unfortunately as much as I wanted to play awesome animation-cancel classes such as KFM, but I'm afraid that my ping won't allow this to happen.

 

Gains aggro with a minute, I don't even. Unless you set up a solid party who can afford to watch you hitting the boss for a minute or so, and without risking the timer ends before the boss die, then sure.

 

This video is one example, need I say more? L2P and git gud. "Initial 10 seconds and that ridiculous 1 minute setup"

 

FM taking lead, how are you range now? No one's telling you to SS/EE/QQ everything you see.

wtf what kind of bs is this? my sin has more ap than this fm and does way less damage with/without fighting spirit not to mention i have to dodge all the crap fk u bns i'm really pissed off now

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