Summoners are not op.

[RavTH]

 

I know it's a hacker, but I was laughing how I couldn't move cuz all of that weed.

[Shiune]

I'm sorry to be that guy but this is definitely NO HACKER and you are bad af...

 

Though the first grapple was the typical SIN vs summoner bug which is indeed annoying af... or you just didn't spec your escape correct but I guess (or hope) that you've at least did that right... 

[RavTH]

13 minutes ago, Shiune said:

I'm sorry to be that guy but this is definitely NO HACKER and you are bad af...

 

Though the first grapple was the typical SIN vs summoner bug which is indeed annoying af... or you just didn't spec your escape correct but I guess (or hope) that you've at least did that right... 

lf spar, teach me how to avoid the weedrape ^

 

[mgl]

How are you even in gold playing like that?

[RavTH]

3 minutes ago, mgl said:

How are you even in gold playing like that?

idk, I really don't care about rankings or how I play, I just do arena for dailys that gives good rewards... but I kinda want gold so I can use my beans for the pauches :s and I have troubles with beating summoners like that. ^

 

[Shiune]

11 minutes ago, RavTH said:

lf spar, teach me how to avoid the weedrape ^

 

Can't teach you that because I'm no summoner but SIN myself.

You should just practice more (alot more) and instead of accusing a normal summoner being a hacker you should know their skills and how to avoid them.

[RavTH]

3 minutes ago, Shiune said:

Can't teach you that because I'm no summoner but SIN myself.

You should just practice more (alot more) and instead of accusing a normal summoner being a hacker you should know their skills and how to avoid them.

I didn't accused of them being a hacker in video or discription. Just said in this post cause I Was not sure whether they were hacking or not.

well maybe you're a sin yourself that can teach me if you think I play bad, I do want to get better without using stun combos and pve stealth builds, like Highwire and such.
The only Highwire move I use is V+Tab+Tab+LMB+LMB, I haven't figured the purpose of others yet.

[Shiune]

Are you on EU or NA? 

[N3ro]

That 'weed shit' is their form of guard break. Witch is also on their rmb, but they can use theirs after they hit into your counter for some reason, or before? They probably just spam rmb and then as it so happens they spam it fast enough that the projectile didn´t reach you yet and they keep mashing rmb and the skill changes to the block break and "breaks your block" aka hits you after they hit into your block.. and knocks you down.

 

Explaining the matchup seems to much work... lol

Just watch viles guide honestly, it´s gonna explain a lot of basic stuff about the matchup (that you OBVIOUSLY don´t know) to you and i really don´t want to type all of it.

I´m playing a lot differently against summs by now, i´ve basically abandoned the time game and just "combo" them or call it whatever you want it´s still different from how you combo other classes. This is still a very good basic guide and you should be able to beat silver summs with basically just surviving, put venom swarm on them and pve the living shit out of them.

 

Summs are not that redicolously op against sin, yes they are really good and are still favored against sins, however it´s nowhere nearly as hard to fight them than fm for instance. You actually have a decent chance at winning the matchup if you play good enough, unlike when fighting fms where your chance is virtually zero. I also think warlock and destro are both worse matchups for us than summoner.

[RavTH]

50 minutes ago, Shiune said:

Are you on EU or NA? 

EU, currently doing daily challanges on my friends account.

[N3ro]

 

You got to be kidding me...

What a troll playing on time against every single class... lol

[RavTH]

2 minutes ago, N3ro said:

 

You got to be kidding me...

Stap stalkin

[SpartanGamer]

I agree with N3ro's post, however that guide was for the lvl 45 HM 5 patch, so there are much needed updates. Your build is probably the most important thing against summoners, since essentially you're just going to try and pve the living shit out of them you don't really worry about complicated combos,etc. Here's the build I've had the most success with: 

 

https://bnstree.com/AS?build=5007001120310034103423010230193100841111230055100733199310123214221006230163201821009312144401321

 

 

Basically this build gives me all the stealth I need, good survivability and utility. The core abilities you should be mainly concerned with are your

 

• V (fighting spirit)

The buff from this is insane, and the stealth is very handy. Try and max it for the cd reset on your 4. If you're specced to venom swarm, this becomes lethal since you can do venom swarm twice in one combo, nullifying their go-to defensive move allowing you to pve freely unless they use iframing moves. So for instance: 4(moths) > tab > 1> rb+f> lmb(specced to stay in stun, the def pen isn't necessary because of moths)> rb+f, rb+f(maybe more depending on ping)> 4(try and get cat in the stun as well)> 

 

if cat got stunned, 4(moths)>tab> lmb> rb + f away

 

if not, tab> lmb>lmb

 

• 4 (venom swarm)

Good against their dandelion, allows you to pve them 

• lmb (spinal tap)

Spec to stay in stealth after stun, you don't really need the def penetration, because you'll want to stay in stealth to get in rb+fs, esp since your f is specced for pve, and you have rb for def breaks anyways. 

• 4 (lightning rend)

set to stun for stun locking

• x(smokescreen) 

blocks some of their ranged spam, and gives you good health regen. A really good way to self sustain. A good tactic I use to sustain back a lot of hp is to gain distance, throw x, wait for cat engage, c(specced to regen and iframes) into cat when he gets into smoke screen range, and you'll regen a lot of hp back pretty safely. 

• darkstrike(f) 

you'll want the additional damage since you're pve'ing

• 1 (shadow drain) 

reset stealth timing and regen chi-- pretty self explanatory

• hm decoy (tier 5 form 1) 

essential. this is the holy crux of Sins, and is absolutely the most important skill against Summoners, the 2 second iframe after a successful decoy is immeasurable-- try not and spam this, and only use it when they cast or after they cast so they have a very short window for their kitty to def break and cancel out your tab...it's pretty stupid that you essentially always have to worry about this bug since their grapple is on a 2x lower cd than your tab escape and that it cancels your escape as well. 

• webbing

I know some will disagree with this, but I've actually found this to be an extremely helpful utility against them. I highly suggest keeping web because of this scenario: 

 

 

daze, stun > tab > lmb> tab(make sure they're in the air so they can't tab out of it)...

 

then you can focus the kitty, exmp after webbing summoner:

 

ss> tab > 1> rb+f         //        or simply V> rb+f

 

The fact that you can make it a 1v1 for about 4-5 seconds, allows you to burst down the cat very, very quickly and easily, and also allows you to buy time and cds, as well as being able to set up combos. 

 

Any other questions, I'll gladly try and help.

 

 

[Zerecas]

Just hit and run, many sins like to play with this esport material method, no?

[RavTH]

1 minute ago, Zerecas said:

Just hit and run, many sins like to play with this esport material method, no?

nah, there's more to assassin that that silver/bronze technique, but it's similar with survival.

[RavTH]

37 minutes ago, SpartanGamer said:

I agree with N3ro's post, however that guide was for the lvl 45 HM 5 patch, so there are much needed updates. Your build is probably the most important thing against summoners, since essentially you're just going to try and pve the living shit out of them you don't really worry about complicated combos,etc. Here's the build I've had the most success with: 

 

https://bnstree.com/AS?build=5007001120310034103421010230193100841111230055100733199310123214221006230163201821009312144401321

 

 

Basically this build gives me all the stealth I need, good survivability and utility. The core abilities you should be mainly concerned with are your

 

• V (fighting spirit)

The buff from this is insane, and the stealth is very handy. Try and max it for the cd reset on your 4. If you're specced to venom swarm, this becomes lethal since you can do venom swarm twice in one combo, nullifying their go-to defensive move allowing you to pve freely unless they use iframing moves. So for instance: 4(moths) > tab > 1> rb+f> lmb(specced to stay in stun, the def pen isn't necessary because of moths)> rb+f, rb+f(maybe more depending on ping)> 4(try and get cat in the stun as well)> 

 

if cat got stunned, 4(moths)>tab> lmb> rb + f away

 

if not, tab> lmb>lmb

 

• 4 (venom swarm)

Good against their dandelion, allows you to pve them 

• lmb (spinal tap)

Spec to stay in stealth after stun, you don't really need the def penetration, because you'll want to stay in stealth to get in rb+fs, esp since your f is specced for pve, and you have rb for def breaks anyways. 

• 4 (lightning rend)

set to stun for stun locking

• x(smokescreen) 

blocks some of their ranged spam, and gives you good health regen. A really good way to self sustain. A good tactic I use to sustain back a lot of hp is to gain distance, throw x, wait for cat engage, c(specced to regen and iframes) into cat when he gets into smoke screen range, and you'll regen a lot of hp back pretty safely. 

• darkstrike(f) 

you'll want the additional damage since you're pve'ing

• 1 (shadow drain) 

reset stealth timing and regen chi-- pretty self explanatory

• hm decoy (tier 5 form 1) 

essential. this is the holy crux of Sins, and is absolutely the most important skill against Summoners, the 2 second iframe after a successful decoy is immeasurable-- try not and spam this, and only use it when they cast or after they cast so they have a very short window for their kitty to def break and cancel out your tab...it's pretty stupid that you essentially always have to worry about this bug since their grapple is on a 2x lower cd than your tab escape and that it cancels your escape as well. 

• webbing

I know some will disagree with this, but I've actually found this to be an extremely helpful utility against them. I highly suggest keeping web because of this scenario: 

 

 

daze, stun > tab > lmb> tab(make sure they're in the air so they can't tab out of it)...

 

then you can focus the kitty, exmp after webbing summoner:

 

ss> tab > 1> rb+f         //        or simply V> rb+f

 

The fact that you can make it a 1v1 for about 4-5 seconds, allows you to burst down the cat very, very quickly and easily, and also allows you to buy time and cds, as well as being able to set up combos. 

 

Any other questions, I'll gladly try and help.

 

 

I've just watched Vile's guide and I learned quite a lot, I didn't knew that I had to look away to get rid of the debuff, also I find Fighting Spirit only useful in PvE, I mostly like to use flower as Vile said "to back that ass up"
But thanks for bullet pointing importants, but what about the time bomb? If used right you could use that as additional knock down then Tab+1 back to Steath for safety.

I always want to try and use the skills that game provides,but I have no understanding to them sadly, like I can't chain them with what I would do to improve..

[N3ro]

23 hours ago, SpartanGamer said:

I agree with N3ro's post, however that guide was for the lvl 45 HM 5 patch, so there are much needed updates. Your build is probably the most important thing against summoners, since essentially you're just going to try and pve the living shit out of them you don't really worry about complicated combos,etc. Here's the build I've had the most success with: 

 

https://bnstree.com/AS?build=5007001120310034103421010230193100841111230055100733199310123214221006230163201821009312144401321

 

 

Basically this build gives me all the stealth I need, good survivability and utility. The core abilities you should be mainly concerned with are your

 

• V (fighting spirit)

The buff from this is insane, and the stealth is very handy. Try and max it for the cd reset on your 4. If you're specced to venom swarm, this becomes lethal since you can do venom swarm twice in one combo, nullifying their go-to defensive move allowing you to pve freely unless they use iframing moves. So for instance: 4(moths) > tab > 1> rb+f> lmb(specced to stay in stun, the def pen isn't necessary because of moths)> rb+f, rb+f(maybe more depending on ping)> 4(try and get cat in the stun as well)> 

 

if cat got stunned, 4(moths)>tab> lmb> rb + f away

 

if not, tab> lmb>lmb

 

• 4 (venom swarm)

Good against their dandelion, allows you to pve them 

• lmb (spinal tap)

Spec to stay in stealth after stun, you don't really need the def penetration, because you'll want to stay in stealth to get in rb+fs, esp since your f is specced for pve, and you have rb for def breaks anyways. 

• 4 (lightning rend)

set to stun for stun locking

• x(smokescreen) 

blocks some of their ranged spam, and gives you good health regen. A really good way to self sustain. A good tactic I use to sustain back a lot of hp is to gain distance, throw x, wait for cat engage, c(specced to regen and iframes) into cat when he gets into smoke screen range, and you'll regen a lot of hp back pretty safely. 

• darkstrike(f) 

you'll want the additional damage since you're pve'ing

• 1 (shadow drain) 

reset stealth timing and regen chi-- pretty self explanatory

• hm decoy (tier 5 form 1) 

essential. this is the holy crux of Sins, and is absolutely the most important skill against Summoners, the 2 second iframe after a successful decoy is immeasurable-- try not and spam this, and only use it when they cast or after they cast so they have a very short window for their kitty to def break and cancel out your tab...it's pretty stupid that you essentially always have to worry about this bug since their grapple is on a 2x lower cd than your tab escape and that it cancels your escape as well. 

• webbing

I know some will disagree with this, but I've actually found this to be an extremely helpful utility against them. I highly suggest keeping web because of this scenario: 

 

 

daze, stun > tab > lmb> tab(make sure they're in the air so they can't tab out of it)...

 

then you can focus the kitty, exmp after webbing summoner:

 

ss> tab > 1> rb+f         //        or simply V> rb+f

 

The fact that you can make it a 1v1 for about 4-5 seconds, allows you to burst down the cat very, very quickly and easily, and also allows you to buy time and cds, as well as being able to set up combos. 

 

Any other questions, I'll gladly try and help.

 

 

Dark strike is the f skill you use out of stealth btw and i don´t see the point in using both glyphs for it tbh. It´s a viable skill, but you don´t usually glyph into it. I use it currently, but without glyphs. I´ve played with lightning pierce before. I´ve also had 1 point into dark strike for a while on my main, but i ditched it for the 3rd point into e to be able to e into lightning stride, witch is really good for when you´ve used your ss and they flower you. The 2 points into dark strike are pointless, because the first one only gives you 1 chi when you crit it and you don´t really spam it non-stop i´d say glyphing your lmb 2 times is better for chi regen and even overall damage. The 2nd point stacks one bleed, witch i´m not really sure how good that is tbh... the other part makes you deal more damage on enemies with 5 poison stacks, witch is rarely the case, at least not for me, so it does nothing most of the time. And when i happen to get 5 points of poison i mostly just lightning stride and then they are gone. 

 

If you want to stealth pve them and do more damage like that you must use lightning pierce, not dark strike. Though i don´t think it´s necessary as you kinda do 'enough' damage with the default lightning crash and it costs less mana this way too (lightning crash recovers 1, lightning pierce costs 1 mana).

 

The build(s) i´m using against summs atm are

on my 47hm0 char: https://bnstree.com/AS?build=47000010002112031003410193100831111231992101232006210163301821009212141101321

on my 50hm7 char: https://bnstree.com/AS?build=5007001000311203100341010230193100831111230055100753199210123200621016330182100931214110242201331

Just posted both so you ca kinda work out what i consider important... i guess...

I´m not so sure about those 2 points into lmb on my 47 sin i´ve also tried q and web instead. You won´t have that problem since you´re probably 50+...

 

For shadow slash i honestly don´t think the 3m range one is all that good i´d rather spec damage, or nothing for it if you don´t have the hm glyph for it. 8m just makes it THAT much more useful. I´m using is to defence myself most of the time rather than comboing, except the cat is already dead. Most of the time that looks like i´m out of stealth pve´ing the cat (rmb+lmb+f) and then i turn to the summoner kd him and keep hitting the cat. Yes, then he can switch places with the cat, but as it turns out most don´t do it anyway and even if they do it, i´d rather have that happen than me getting spammed by a lacer. Also it´s very useful once the cat is dead as summoners only have 1 way to get out of knockdowns and their tag team, witch they cannot use when the cat is dead. So it´s an easy way to get their f roll out of the way. But the left tree is also really really good.

 

I also really like landmine against summoners as it makes it really easy to kill the cat with it, because the cat has absolutely 0 escape possibilities for stuns and knockdowns. Ok... well i lied they have party flower. And some have the heal specced for 5 seconds immunity for themselves and their familiar, witch breaks your combo.

But anyways it would look something like lmb stun > pve´ing + somewhen shadow drain for mana regen > put landmine + x shuriken > explode landmine > pve´ing > lightning rod > pve out of stealth > x shurike > woodblock > get hit and be stealthed again or f daze and more out of stealth pve´ing. If you hit all that the cat is dead for sure. You usually don´t do all of that, because well the summ won´t usually just stand there and do nothing. Sometimes they do because no chi, or just retarded.

 

And what i also like about the build on my 50hm7 char is that this build is actually viable against pretty much anything. Ofc it´s not perfect, but it gives you the ability to fight against bms and kfms for instance somewhat normally, witch is really valuable when you play 3v3 and there is a summoner in the opponents team. Also you can´t really play on time against summoners in 3v3, it´s just not a good idea...

[RavTH]

I started using what Vile guide said, I start to completely elimiate Warlocks/BladeMasters, but when it comes to pve sins or other classes I will lose no matter what, anyone can help me with the stun combos for sin?

[SpartanGamer]

On 5/21/2016 at 0:36 PM, N3ro said:

Dark strike is the f skill you use out of stealth btw and i don´t see the point in using both glyphs for it tbh. It´s a viable skill, but you don´t usually glyph into it. I use it currently, but without glyphs. I´ve played with lightning pierce before. I´ve also had 1 point into dark strike for a while on my main, but i ditched it for the 3rd point into e to be able to e into lightning stride, witch is really good for when you´ve used your ss and they flower you. The 2 points into dark strike are pointless, because the first one only gives you 1 chi when you crit it and you don´t really spam it non-stop i´d say glyphing your lmb 2 times is better for chi regen and even overall damage. The 2nd point stacks one bleed, witch i´m not really sure how good that is tbh... the other part makes you deal more damage on enemies with 5 poison stacks, witch is rarely the case, at least not for me, so it does nothing most of the time. And when i happen to get 5 points of poison i mostly just lightning stride and then they are gone. 

 

If you want to stealth pve them and do more damage like that you must use lightning pierce, not dark strike. Though i don´t think it´s necessary as you kinda do 'enough' damage with the default lightning crash and it costs less mana this way too (lightning crash recovers 1, lightning pierce costs 1 mana).

 

The build(s) i´m using against summs atm are

on my 47hm0 char: https://bnstree.com/AS?build=47000010002112031003410193100831111231992101232006210163301821009212141101321

on my 50hm7 char: https://bnstree.com/AS?build=5007001000311203100341010230193100831111230055100753199210123200621016330182100931214110242201331

Just posted both so you ca kinda work out what i consider important... i guess...

I´m not so sure about those 2 points into lmb on my 47 sin i´ve also tried q and web instead. You won´t have that problem since you´re probably 50+...

 

For shadow slash i honestly don´t think the 3m range one is all that good i´d rather spec damage, or nothing for it if you don´t have the hm glyph for it. 8m just makes it THAT much more useful. I´m using is to defence myself most of the time rather than comboing, except the cat is already dead. Most of the time that looks like i´m out of stealth pve´ing the cat (rmb+lmb+f) and then i turn to the summoner kd him and keep hitting the cat. Yes, then he can switch places with the cat, but as it turns out most don´t do it anyway and even if they do it, i´d rather have that happen than me getting spammed by a lacer. Also it´s very useful once the cat is dead as summoners only have 1 way to get out of knockdowns and their tag team, witch they cannot use when the cat is dead. So it´s an easy way to get their f roll out of the way. But the left tree is also really really good.

 

I also really like landmine against summoners as it makes it really easy to kill the cat with it, because the cat has absolutely 0 escape possibilities for stuns and knockdowns. Ok... well i lied they have party flower. And some have the heal specced for 5 seconds immunity for themselves and their familiar, witch breaks your combo.

But anyways it would look something like lmb stun > pve´ing + somewhen shadow drain for mana regen > put landmine + x shuriken > explode landmine > pve´ing > lightning rod > pve out of stealth > x shurike > woodblock > get hit and be stealthed again or f daze and more out of stealth pve´ing. If you hit all that the cat is dead for sure. You usually don´t do all of that, because well the summ won´t usually just stand there and do nothing. Sometimes they do because no chi, or just retarded.

 

And what i also like about the build on my 50hm7 char is that this build is actually viable against pretty much anything. Ofc it´s not perfect, but it gives you the ability to fight against bms and kfms for instance somewhat normally, witch is really valuable when you play 3v3 and there is a summoner in the opponents team. Also you can´t really play on time against summoners in 3v3, it´s just not a good idea...

Apologies, I didn't mean darkstrike, I meant lightning pierce. I also forgot to switch to that in my build I posted, but the reason I go lightning pierce is for for a nice increase in damage and the bleed stacks-- this is important because it reduces the amount of healing the summoner can do to itself or the pet. You can stack a good amount of bleeds if you can ani-cancel fast enough. It's worth it to spec for it simply because Summoners are always healing, you want to mitigate it. And about the chi cost, you shouldn't be able to rb+f many times since they have numerous ways to counter that. It's pretty hard since they aren't just sitting ducks like other classes. 

 

As for the landmine, I don't see anything bad with it, and it can have useful utility, but I always used it with my main combo to bait out techs. Against Summoners, it's very hard to effectivelu land one since you're getting overloaded constantly. cc > landmine or just landmine just isn't as easy as throwing a poison bomb at any distance you want with pretty much instant damage. And the damage from constantly throwing them is good-- especially if you crit. I've crit for over 4K numerous times. I like the additional damage and the easiness of it over landmine. That's just me. 

 

I'm almost always targetting the summoner over the cat, and only target the cat when it's absolutely the only thing I can do. With that said, I'm also always finding ways to get to the Summoner. Focusing the cat is just a bad idea, imo. For shadowslash, I would go one of the hm skills, but I don't have the book. I've been holding off wasting my hard earned gold for something I can essentially get for free via achievements, so I've just been farming naryu silver and getting the last of my achievements done to get the skill that way. 

 

Also really the only things I don't like about your build would be lotus of escape and smokescreen set to stealth. Lotus is escape is good, no matter what essentially, but you almost need fighting spirit against Summoners just to have enough damage to severely punish if they make a mistake. Not a lot of sins know how to use it effectively, and I see a lot start off the match using it for the stealth only. Which is dumb, since you spec fighting spirit primarily for the insane damage increase you do well over 2x the amount of damage normally AND you get additional lifesteal for 10 seconds...you also get a 15 second stealth and instant 100% chi regen. I can't tell you how many times I've deleted the Summoners or cats hp bars in mere seconds. But yeah, you're supposed to hold off using it UNTIL you bait out their escapes so you can punish them with little to no counterplay. Not only that, but against Summoners you don't need to burn their tab. You just wait out their iframes and make them burn their long cd ss, venom swarm to cancel their flower, then they are a free meal with fighting spirit. 

 

Also with x set to stealth is not really necessary. You already have multiple ways of getting into and staying in stealth. The chi and health regen, along with resisting ranged projectiles is pretty useful against them. And you can also do pretty easy set up. If you see an opening, immediate x> tab >1, and you can freely combo with the chi regen, and you're also gaining hp doing so. 

[SpartanGamer]

On 5/20/2016 at 2:15 PM, RavTH said:

I've just watched Vile's guide and I learned quite a lot, I didn't knew that I had to look away to get rid of the debuff, also I find Fighting Spirit only useful in PvE, I mostly like to use flower as Vile said "to back that ass up"
But thanks for bullet pointing importants, but what about the time bomb? If used right you could use that as additional knock down then Tab+1 back to Steath for safety.

I always want to try and use the skills that game provides,but I have no understanding to them sadly, like I can't chain them with what I would do to improve..

Flower is good no matter what, and you save points as well. For more experienced players, I'd recommend fighting spirit since you can do insane damage. You can basically 100-0 the summoner or cat if they mess up, and do it pretty quickly too. Just try them both out, play around with your build and see what works for you. I'm only posting my way of playing to give other Sin players ideas. 

 

Time bomb is good, it's pretty nifty, you don't need to spec points into it and do pretty neat combos with z. And yeah, you can do that. If you specced to web, you can timebomb> z> knockdown> web, then position behind them and just 1. In order to chain effectively, you just gotta get used to "feeling the duration of the ccs". That just takes experience, you'll get there. 

[N3ro]

6 hours ago, SpartanGamer said:

Apologies, I didn't mean darkstrike, I meant lightning pierce. I also forgot to switch to that in my build I posted, but the reason I go lightning pierce is for for a nice increase in damage and the bleed stacks-- this is important because it reduces the amount of healing the summoner can do to itself or the pet. You can stack a good amount of bleeds if you can ani-cancel fast enough. It's worth it to spec for it simply because Summoners are always healing, you want to mitigate it. And about the chi cost, you shouldn't be able to rb+f many times since they have numerous ways to counter that. It's pretty hard since they aren't just sitting ducks like other classes. 

 

As for the landmine, I don't see anything bad with it, and it can have useful utility, but I always used it with my main combo to bait out techs. Against Summoners, it's very hard to effectivelu land one since you're getting overloaded constantly. cc > landmine or just landmine just isn't as easy as throwing a poison bomb at any distance you want with pretty much instant damage. And the damage from constantly throwing them is good-- especially if you crit. I've crit for over 4K numerous times. I like the additional damage and the easiness of it over landmine. That's just me. 

 

I'm almost always targetting the summoner over the cat, and only target the cat when it's absolutely the only thing I can do. With that said, I'm also always finding ways to get to the Summoner. Focusing the cat is just a bad idea, imo. For shadowslash, I would go one of the hm skills, but I don't have the book. I've been holding off wasting my hard earned gold for something I can essentially get for free via achievements, so I've just been farming naryu silver and getting the last of my achievements done to get the skill that way. 

 

Also really the only things I don't like about your build would be lotus of escape and smokescreen set to stealth. Lotus is escape is good, no matter what essentially, but you almost need fighting spirit against Summoners just to have enough damage to severely punish if they make a mistake. Not a lot of sins know how to use it effectively, and I see a lot start off the match using it for the stealth only. Which is dumb, since you spec fighting spirit primarily for the insane damage increase you do well over 2x the amount of damage normally AND you get additional lifesteal for 10 seconds...you also get a 15 second stealth and instant 100% chi regen. I can't tell you how many times I've deleted the Summoners or cats hp bars in mere seconds. But yeah, you're supposed to hold off using it UNTIL you bait out their escapes so you can punish them with little to no counterplay. Not only that, but against Summoners you don't need to burn their tab. You just wait out their iframes and make them burn their long cd ss, venom swarm to cancel their flower, then they are a free meal with fighting spirit. 

 

Also with x set to stealth is not really necessary. You already have multiple ways of getting into and staying in stealth. The chi and health regen, along with resisting ranged projectiles is pretty useful against them. And you can also do pretty easy set up. If you see an opening, immediate x> tab >1, and you can freely combo with the chi regen, and you're also gaining hp doing so. 

Well... if you wanna force kill the summoner first then i guess landmine is generally pretty awkward, because there always is the cat to worry about when you want to chain dazes on the summoner and most of the time you´ll be out of stealth if you´re using dazes... So yeah.

 

I´ve also tested the thing with the x resist summoners have on my lvl 30 mlg summoner and as it turns out they cannot use it when the cat is cc´t. Also they cannot use the heal either that would give the cat 0.8 seconds of iframe. So the only way to really get the cat out of stuns and dazes for them would then be party seed shroud. Yes they can also lacer you, but especially in the spinal tab + landmine stun they often times don´t even have the mana to do so against sins, because 3 sunflower lacers cost their entire chi bar and all of their skills that would recover chi for them require a target, witch they don´t have when you´re stealthed. What they can also do is run up to you and use their normal seed shroud (hm one) and gain overload for 3 seconds so they are able to spam their sunflower cannon without it costing any chi and take you out of stealth this way, but i´ve never really seen anyone do that lol and if they did i forgot. But some don´t even use cannon as hm bees are actually absolutely nuts! You get aircomboed once and lose 60% of your hp. I like it more than lancer, but maybe my oppinion would change if i would actually play summoner. Also i think their ss gives their pet iframes too, so they could actually ss the moment you´re about to use your lightning rod (or landmine, or whatever cc) on the cat and the cat would resist it right? But i´m not sure if the cat gets those iframes when it´s stunned... i´ll test this too later.

Killing the cat seem generally just much easier and saver to me. Sometimes i end up killing the summoner first, but thats not really my gameplan thats just kind of what you end up doing when they just keep putting their cat into tank mode, use the immunity buff and alli the cat away the moment you would want to stun the cat. And those fights when i fight a summoner who can actually protect their cat like that i sometimes loose, because it takes me too long to kill the cat, but generally it seems to work out also against high rated summoners (rank ~1-20).

 

I knew that bleed reduces healing, but i don´t know to what degree it does that. Like -50% -70% -5% that matters... But i´m also not really too scared of summoners spamming their x heal as it generally means they will loose most deffinitely when the game is over and when they spam their cat heal you can just switch to the summoner, or ocassionally you can just keep spamming your skills on the cat and you´ll end up either killing it anyway, or when you just don´t feel like switching to the summoner for whatever reason is a good idea it´s not even that bad, because you´ll end up doing damage to the summoner. Witch is not how you want to do damage to the summoner, but oh well if switching to the summoner isn´t working out at a given moment it´s better than stopping your combo on the cat. I mean it´s free damage nothing is going to stop it, the cat is cc´t, the summoner is stuck inside an annimation.

 

You can try it it´s more fun too i think as you kinda also can do some combos this way, as if you would just focus the summoner you´re mostly also just pve the entire time. Pressing v and then having bigger numbers pop up while you´re pve´ing does not exactly make it more enjoyable. It´s just "hardcore" pve´ing then...

I´ve been playing full pve mode, but i think it´s boring and also probably worse, the only thing i´m not too sure about is if i would not be better off still using lightning pierce, but i felt like generally the additional damage does not really matter too much. Lightning crash does "enough damage" and sometimes lightning pierce would drain too much mana to the point that i have to tab out of my stealth to restealth..., witch s*cks. I feel like lightning pierce is only really useful paired with blue buff to have that insane burst this way as then every single of your anicancels will be lightning pierce as pretty much all of your rmbs will crit and then you get the increased damage on top of it. But then again it´s boring af.

 

And x stealth seems better to me it´s a good 10 seconds unconditional stealth and also the only way you can actually "get the opener" as there is nothing else you can do about them running to you and mashing their flower button. I don´t think you need the chi regen when you´re using shadow drain already. You can use that inside your combos to regen. You don´t need to treasure it to restealth of it.

[SpartanGamer]

2 hours ago, N3ro said:

Well... if you wanna force kill the summoner first then i guess landmine is generally pretty awkward, because there always is the cat to worry about when you want to chain dazes on the summoner and most of the time you´ll be out of stealth if you´re using dazes... So yeah.

 

I´ve also tested the thing with the x resist summoners have on my lvl 30 mlg summoner and as it turns out they cannot use it when the cat is cc´t. Also they cannot use the heal either that would give the cat 0.8 seconds of iframe. So the only way to really get the cat out of stuns and dazes for them would then be party seed shroud. Yes they can also lacer you, but especially in the spinal tab + landmine stun they often times don´t even have the mana to do so against sins, because 3 sunflower lacers cost their entire chi bar and all of their skills that would recover chi for them require a target, witch they don´t have when you´re stealthed. What they can also do is run up to you and use their normal seed shroud (hm one) and gain overload for 3 seconds so they are able to spam their sunflower cannon without it costing any chi and take you out of stealth this way, but i´ve never really seen anyone do that lol and if they did i forgot. But some don´t even use cannon as hm bees are actually absolutely nuts! You get aircomboed once and lose 60% of your hp. I like it more than lancer, but maybe my oppinion would change if i would actually play summoner. Also i think their ss gives their pet iframes too, so they could actually ss the moment you´re about to use your lightning rod (or landmine, or whatever cc) on the cat and the cat would resist it right? But i´m not sure if the cat gets those iframes when it´s stunned... i´ll test this too later.

Killing the cat seem generally just much easier and saver to me. Sometimes i end up killing the summoner first, but thats not really my gameplan thats just kind of what you end up doing when they just keep putting their cat into tank mode, use the immunity buff and alli the cat away the moment you would want to stun the cat. And those fights when i fight a summoner who can actually protect their cat like that i sometimes loose, because it takes me too long to kill the cat, but generally it seems to work out also against high rated summoners (rank ~1-20).

 

I knew that bleed reduces healing, but i don´t know to what degree it does that. Like -50% -70% -5% that matters... But i´m also not really too scared of summoners spamming their x heal as it generally means they will loose most deffinitely when the game is over and when they spam their cat heal you can just switch to the summoner, or ocassionally you can just keep spamming your skills on the cat and you´ll end up either killing it anyway, or when you just don´t feel like switching to the summoner for whatever reason is a good idea it´s not even that bad, because you´ll end up doing damage to the summoner. Witch is not how you want to do damage to the summoner, but oh well if switching to the summoner isn´t working out at a given moment it´s better than stopping your combo on the cat. I mean it´s free damage nothing is going to stop it, the cat is cc´t, the summoner is stuck inside an annimation.

 

You can try it it´s more fun too i think as you kinda also can do some combos this way, as if you would just focus the summoner you´re mostly also just pve the entire time. Pressing v and then having bigger numbers pop up while you´re pve´ing does not exactly make it more enjoyable. It´s just "hardcore" pve´ing then...

I´ve been playing full pve mode, but i think it´s boring and also probably worse, the only thing i´m not too sure about is if i would not be better off still using lightning pierce, but i felt like generally the additional damage does not really matter too much. Lightning crash does "enough damage" and sometimes lightning pierce would drain too much mana to the point that i have to tab out of my stealth to restealth..., witch s*cks. I feel like lightning pierce is only really useful paired with blue buff to have that insane burst this way as then every single of your anicancels will be lightning pierce as pretty much all of your rmbs will crit and then you get the increased damage on top of it. But then again it´s boring af.

 

And x stealth seems better to me it´s a good 10 seconds unconditional stealth and also the only way you can actually "get the opener" as there is nothing else you can do about them running to you and mashing their flower button. I don´t think you need the chi regen when you´re using shadow drain already. You can use that inside your combos to regen. You don´t need to treasure it to restealth of it.

Yeah, was wrong about the bleed, it's only deep wound that does that, but bleed increases the amount of damage taken and that stacks up. It does decrease health regeneration by 20% per stack, but that isn't anything significant. It does help over the length of the match, though. It's not about enjoying the match, in fact, I hate summoner matches so much. It's really not fun at all since actually combo'ing them is pretty impossible, so I'm forced to pve pretty much the entire match. Which, at this point, is so redundant and boring. X stealth is good, and so is lotus, but I've gotten pretty good with openers against Summoners and don't have a problem baiting them into decoys. Especially if they engage first with the cat, which is a significant amount of the time, you can easily decoy that. X stealth is good for openers, I completely agree, but later on in the match, I find it loses its effectiveness, since if you get sunflowered, you can't use x stealth, and if you don't have decoy or c, you're pretty much open to free damage and cc. Using x smokescreen, can iframe Sum's basic attacks and prevent them from regen'ing chi, as well as give a pretty significant heal and chi regen. 

 

Usually, if I get knocked out of stealth or run out of stealth, I'll gain some distance and bait the Summoner to get the cat to engage me, throw down a smokescreen, q or decoy the cat to get into stealth, pve cat, make them defense curl the cat, and tab+tab swap them into the smokescreen and pve. You can regen hp and dps pretty much at the same time. 

 

It's the playstyle I'm used to, your way may be better, but it's really whatever your comfortable with. I'm just giving ideas. 

[SpartanGamer]

2 minutes ago, SpartanGamer said:

Yeah, was wrong about the bleed, it's only deep wound that does that, but bleed increases the amount of damage taken and that stacks up. It does decrease health regeneration by 20% per stack, but that isn't anything significant. It does help over the length of the match, though. It's not about enjoying the match, in fact, I hate summoner matches so much. It's really not fun at all since actually combo'ing them is pretty impossible, so I'm forced to pve pretty much the entire match. Which, at this point, is so redundant and boring. X stealth is good, and so is lotus, but I've gotten pretty good with openers against Summoners and don't have a problem baiting them into decoys. Especially if they engage first with the cat, which is a significant amount of the time, you can easily decoy that. X stealth is good for openers, I completely agree, but later on in the match, I find it loses its effectiveness, since if you get sunflowered, you can't use x stealth, and if you don't have decoy or c, you're pretty much open to free damage and cc. Using x smokescreen, can iframe Sum's basic attacks and prevent them from regen'ing chi, as well as give a pretty significant heal and chi regen. 

 

Usually, if I get knocked out of stealth or run out of stealth, I'll gain some distance and bait the Summoner to get the cat to engage me, throw down a smokescreen, q or decoy the cat to get into stealth, pve cat, make them defense curl the cat, and tab+tab swap them into the smokescreen and pve. You can regen hp and dps pretty much at the same time. 

 

It's the playstyle I'm used to, your way may be better, but it's really whatever your comfortable with. I'm just giving ideas. 

Also, against good Summoners, focusing the cat is a waste of time. They will almost always find a response to get the kitty out of danger. It's just not worth wasting stealth +pve on the cat. Best bet is to try and seperate summoner from cat using web or tab swaps, etc, and focus the Summoner. 

[Shiune]

I guess I am on of the very few sins using Dark Strike against summoners and this has the following reason:

 

1. With dark strike you'll dish out more damage if the summoner is stunned than with lightning pierce. 

 

2. you can actually make use of lighting rod stun: you bait out the summoners escaping skill and then stun him together with the cat with lighting rod and you can go full ham on the sum without the cat interupting you (it will interupt you if you pve the summoner because the summoner can mostly still use the skill where the cat jumps at him and knocks you back). 

 

3. you can still PvE him but without loosing to much chi

 

4. I also skill for choke bomb or plaguemist because of the fast 5 poison stacks - this allows me to burst a shitload of damage even outside of stuns/dazes (for example to take out the cat very fast with a 3 KD). 

 

I also have other reasons using this build but the points above give you a bit of an insight. 

 

Also i wouldn't ever take fighting spirit because of 100 reasons but especially 1 reason is very important:

If the summoner knows how to bug your tab escape the flower is the only chance to get you out of the grapple. 

 

With this build I have like a 80% winrate vs summoners. 

[azraelkun]

I usually start with x stealth so sum either use dandelion or his resist then buy time with 3 restealth n ss bkstep just in case then figjting n pve if i hear the alli thing that sum says when callibg bk cat i take my distance forgot i use poison mine n as for 4 poison i use the last one 45 secs cd 4k damage 50% hp bk from damage.

If in 1st round i see that sum knows to bug i take my flower only then