H2H

Grind complaints...whuh??

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H2H   

I keep seeing posts about how the grind is TOO MUCH.

 

Can someone explain this for me? I mean, yeah, there is grinding required. But does anyone remember an MMO that DIDN'T have grinding required?

 

The last I played was Vindictus. And maybe its just me, but the grinding required there was insane. BNS grinding is nothing by comparison.

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I played Vindictus too and Vindy is not insane there, but around the same as BNS. The gear hike past profane is very steep, especially if you don't arena. Only reason I got past 500 AP is arena.

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Im playing Vindy too..  :3  I hate ferghus.

 

----

Im still at 455 Ap right now... still a long way to go for a soul and better weapons.  I'm fine with grinding just hope that there are other ppl to in the area.. esp field bosses.

 

Grinding alone with bots at Profane Jiangshi is scary and stressful, no one to talk with... and eventually i started to appreciate the bots stationed there.

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Just now, Prototypemind said:

I'm playing Vindi again. The grind here makes my eyes bleed. It's just not any fun anymore.

See you in S2 raid train :3 if you see a twin tailed Fiona with Prompush gun barrel hammer skinned arma and regina armor.. that's me

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At least on BnS you're guarenteed to eventually get enough mats for your gear but on vindi you never knew when it will drop. You could either be really lucky or have a few months of no drops and be dirt poor. It was terrible :/

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Sithaer   

I've also played Vindi for 5+ years and the grind in BNS is nothing compared to Vindi.

 

Vindi has multiple RNG layers on everything,nothing is given.

Lets say I want to enchant my weapon with an end game scroll.

First I need to drop it 'very low %' or buy it from someone,then use Elixirs which give random + % till you have 90+.then at MAX you have 40% success and if you don't use a protection rune 'RL money item' you can straight out fail it and destroy your entire item with it.

 

At least in BNS you can't fail,at least not in our version,might be a slow progress but its a given and not rng like in Vindi.

 

I have a somewhat end game geared char in Vindi and that took me years to build it,this is why I don't really complain about stuff here cause at least this is given unlike Vindi progress. 'end game as in I can solo the latest Raid boss in the game'

 

 

Edited by Sithaer

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Just now, JoannaRamira said:

See you in S2 raid train :3 if you see a twin tailed Fiona with Prompush gun barrel hammer skinned arma and regina armor.. that's me

City of East?

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Arkragon   

From my playthrough of BnS, so far the grindiness is tolerable. I'm almost at True Breeze, which probably doesn't mean much, but it's not a painful grind. I'm not sure about Awakened Scorpio or True Scorpio, but hopefully the grind isn't brutal and the timelines match with content releases. HOPING.

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KzE   
3 hours ago, H2H said:

I keep seeing posts about how the grind is TOO MUCH.

 

Can someone explain this for me? I mean, yeah, there is grinding required. But does anyone remember an MMO that DIDN'T have grinding required?

 

The last I played was Vindictus. And maybe its just me, but the grinding required there was insane. BNS grinding is nothing by comparison.

The problem is, you cant skip gear. In other mmos, if you left behind, or a late-starter, you can easily get the actual contents basic gear and advance the new content. Here you are forced to do all the steps. If you make a half year break, your crappy gear will wait for you, and the upgrade materials will even more expensive and your incomes from dailies the same. So its like a non-forced vs forced grind.

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1 hour ago, Sithaer said:

I've also played Vindi for 5+ years and the grind in BNS is nothing compared to Vindi.

 

Vindi has multiple RNG layers on everything,nothing is given.

Lets say I want to enchant my weapon with an end game scroll.

First I need to drop it 'very low %' or buy it from someone,then use Elixirs which give random + % till you have 90+.then at MAX you have 40% success and if you don't use a protection rune 'RL money item' you can straight out fail it and destroy your entire item with it.

 

At least in BNS you can't fail,at least not in our version,might be a slow progress but its a given and not rng like in Vindi.

 

I have a somewhat end game geared char in Vindi and that took me years to build it,this is why I don't really complain about stuff here cause at least this is given unlike Vindi progress. 'end game as in I can solo the latest Raid boss in the game'

 

 

Yep, the RNG can be painful, but I still have fun doing Season 2 and 3 raids, farming drops in the S3 areas, and doing older content on Hero. Plus for all the criticism Vindi gets for elitism people in your random groups actually talk to each other. Nexon has done horribad things with the game as of late and killed the population, but there's still enjoyment to be had. I logged in here again a few weeks ago and managed to grind through dailies on a few toons and felt worn. I hopped on earlier today to try and level an alt and felt so bored that I just logged right back out. On top of the grind the targeting system lacks a bit and being stuck in combat just become annoying after a while I don't see any point when I'm just finding no joy in the game.

 

I agree entirely that Vindi has too much RNG. Nexon's decision to run mediocre events--somewhat mirrored by the shortsightedness of what NCSoft is doing with their current ones that really do nothing to solve the problem of so many players being left behind--continues to hurt the game. That said, there's a new character coming soon and I'm hopeful that something good will come with her. I won't be gaming as much anyway this summer, but when I am, I want to enjoy it and that isn't happening in BnS.

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You can't skip gear. The paths are all the same. And from Awakened Infernal onward, pretty much any attempt to progress on your own merit is all but gone, once Moonwater Transformation Stones and Soulstones come into the picture for upgrading.

 

There are no options. You have to grind faction dailies for the soulstones other dailies for money, and dungeons for things you need or want. There's very little variety of quests or things to do otherwise. So it feels horrendously grindy, partly because it is, and because lack of variety and RNG potentially negating any effort you make.

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Shadzar   
12 hours ago, H2H said:

But does anyone remember an MMO that DIDN'T have grinding required?

Yeah, all of them before someone came up with the idea of material upgrades. You either would repeat dungeons or bosses or just mobs, looking for your drop, but you got other things you use AND everything you could sell. Nothing like "Bound to account" or "unable to trade" or "Cannot sell on marketplace". Everything was tradeable except for the class specific epic weapon.

 

This of course was EverQuest from 1999, that had its "market" appear in 2001 in Shadows of Luclin its 3rd expansion,

 

Would you like to compare what MIGHT be called grind there? You had to farm bat wings to craft with, but wait, you didnt have to collect bat wings and take to some shop, you actually had things like cooking skills and anyone could make healing potions and such that gave healing, stat boosts, buffs, etc. You could level up those skills to unlock more things You could actually choose what to do with your skills. Crafting was REAL crafting. The skills you chose were real skills. You have to find a scroll to learn some, and you could choose which you learned.

 

You had real stats, but BnS does things different so "armor" doesnt do anything except play dress up in BnS, so it is hard to compare that.

 

But it didn't matter, because you could sell anything or trade anything anytime. Done crafting and want to get rid of the spares, trade it to someone else. When you went for those bat wings, you got other loot. You also got money from EVERY mob, as well as XP. So the grind didnt affect you as much since you made progress with EVERYTHING you did. BnS doesn't give XP for anything unless  you are premium or doing one of Farmville's quests. And BnS gives way too much XP for quests which causes an imbalance in level to gear ratio.

 

Where the grind really happens is when you feel your efforts playing the game yield no results. BnS that is all it is. EverQuest everything you did progressed you in something.

 

That is what has always made me wonder why BnS even has a class system if they use the same gear, because all that does is make the grind worse for everyone because it makes it overly competitive to be able to progress. Not hard like a 24-man raid where the drop is for 1 class only, but other classes are needed, and ONLY 1 player can get the drop. But hard because EVERYTHING I need, someone else also needs. This exasperates the grind to all new levels of tedium. and it isn't jsut for gear, but crafting as well. Moonwater Tears, Soulstones, Moonwater Quartz... These are needed by many in the fake crafting in BnS.

 

Sure you may have played some you think have a worse grind, but how did we even get to this point? Economic model for game revenue is how. They decided to nickle-and-dime people to death with micro purchases, and the only way to do that was throw the baby out with the bathwater of good design. They have forsaken a decent design system and finding a way to get the revenue stream for cheap and dirty.

 

So when you claim BnS isn't a grind because others are more grindy, you are making a false statement and actually a strawman. The fact is compared to the 2nd commercially viable MMO, BnS diverted from a decent play format that was open, letting players choose their own method to play, a sandbox, to a railroad that forces the grind on everyone.

 

EVERYONE needs 500 Warrior Tokens to upgrade (300 after Siren/Pirate paths are removed), Everyone needs about 30 Moonwater Transformation stones... The only thing different in progression at all is the class based weapon. Guess why? Because everyone needs the EXACT same soul shields [armor] as well!

 

Everyone needing the sme thing means there has to be more needed, and those produces the grind. So when you say it isnt a grind, you are being dishonest at the least.

Edited by Shadzar

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Yes. The only other game I have played was SWTOR for 2 years. While initially in that game it took a long time to level up and gear up, eventually all the requirements were relaxed. While you levels (and it had 8 different class stories) you eraned enough tokens for an entry level set that was fine for the end-game PvE content. If you played PvP while levellin, you have enough comms for at least Tier 1 PvP set.  Running in an Op 3-4 times a week gave you a good set for SM ops no problems in a matter of weeks, and if you real wanted to, you could do HM and NiM tier Ops after that. And all the Ops were designed to be run only once a week. 

 

So, raiding was a social event. My guild loaded on a TS, and run an op every day, and if it took 2 hrs, so be it, even if the pros could make a run in 30 min.... Oh, and we rolled on gear, with the winner of a set bonus piece not rolling on the other one. No cut-throat bidding like here, when getting what you need is impossible.

 

On top of that, there was Legacy Storage and Legacy gear, so all your characters had access to everything, and mirror classes can earn one set of armor they could share! Not to mention ALL alts could wear non-end-game set bonuses while levelling, one set of armor for all alts every 8 levels!

 

So, all and all, the gear was not a problem in that game at all, and still the Dailies and PvP for low geared/not PvP geared players were decently bolstered, so everyone could participate.

 

Now, SWTOR made a major turn towards selling an SP campaign with a social environment, and stuff, but gearing is certainly was way easier and way more fair than here, where catching up takes weeks and months, and requires 4 hrs a day.

Edited by DomiSotto

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Piper   
11 hours ago, H2H said:

Can someone explain this for me?

Sure.

 

Running from one side of a field to the other to kill the same mobs that recycle over and over and over again for mats is a grind. Add the RNG troll of keys (because everything needs a *cricket*ing key) and you may be able to make a teeny bit of progress acquiring components and you may not. Isn't that fun? No. It's a grind. By definition.

 

I ran 3 man Yeti over 100 times. Then I ran Necro. Over and over and over again for stingers to upgrade. Hundreds of runs doing the same thing hundreds of times. Over. And over. And over. That or the cash grab "events" is the only way to get the ridiculous amount of mats required to upgrade.  I didn't buy TT and I didn't buy boxes. And even after running the same things over and over again (i.e. GRINDING) I fell behind. So yeah, this game is either swipe hard or do the same, boring, repetitive, mundane tasks over and over and over again. <---- grind definition

 

And no, I don't care about other games and how you use to have to walk uphill in the snow both ways. OMG this other game was sooooo much more grindy. Who gives a shit? We can all wrap our brains around the fact that getting beaten once a day is better than getting beaten twice a day. Stop trying to excuse the tedium that is this game simply because people are stupid enough to support even more tedious games. I'm not playing those other games. I'm not going to play those other games. I'm not even playing this one anymore because it's a boring, BORING grind and nothing more. 

 

 

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Arohk   
12 hours ago, H2H said:

I keep seeing posts about how the grind is TOO MUCH.

 

Can someone explain this for me? I mean, yeah, there is grinding required. But does anyone remember an MMO that DIDN'T have grinding required?

you need 50 or 60 Stingers to upgrade your stuff and there only drop 0-1 in a 6 man dungeon.

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The most nonsensical part of this game to me is the crafting. How can you have a crafting system where it is nearly impossible to obtain the items that you need to gather for your crafting without spending real money? You literally cannot rely on daily boxes to get enough pickaxes, etc, to farm your mats for crafting. You have to compete with other players again and again to get MW Tears, etc., to continue your crafting, and the number per run is so low that without botters supply can never keep up with demand. Without grinding PvP you're extremely limited as to how many Soulstones you can get. If you want to craft efficiently in terms of your time you have to spend real money, and if you do that, where's the fun in playing the game?

 

You can spend your real money so that you can craft and keep your gear up and make gold, or you can spend real money to buy gold directly, then buy your mats for your gear; either way, if you want to progress and keep up efficiently the best way to do it is not to actually play the game at all. That makes zero sense. Having the ability for players with little free time to still be able to keep up and have fun is fine, but not making it so that cash remains the only remotely efficient way to be involved in the game. Be involved, mind you, because swiping your credit card and magically being geared isn't even playing. Swiping your card and having all the mats you need to craft and then logging out for a day while your mats turn into items isn't playing either. I just can't understand the point in making so much of what you do involve no interaction with the game world at all.

 

Players just keep coming to the same conclusion in the end: this game just isn't fun.

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Shukran   
2 hours ago, Arohk said:

you need 50 or 60 Stingers to upgrade your stuff and there only drop 0-1 in a 6 man dungeon.

6mencan crit too

4men crit is higher crit.

market can trade materials.

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Sithaer   

From what I noticed the main problem seems to be that a lot of ppls wants everything so damn fast and doesn't look at the progress in the long term.

 

This is an MMO after all,lets assume the average player plays it for 1+ years even just casually,the person will most likely end up with a gear that is enough for any given content at the time or even later.

Now I don't have experience with the other Bns regions but this is how I always played/looked at MMOS,the ones I've played for 2-3 years at least.

 

No one is saying that this game doesn't require grind,it sure does but at least its a given and its just a matter of time.

From what I read here and hear ingame,the current content is pretty much doable with 500-550 AP+decent secondary stats or so,thats reachable even for a casual like me in a acceptable time.

 

Jes the game is not new player/alt friendly,that much I know since I also abandoned my main right before the Silverfrost update and had to start from 0 since I couldn't even mail stuff.

 

 

Edited by Sithaer

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Drakor   

   The reason people are complaining about the grind is because they are casual players with a life who only play a few hours a night and can see it taking a week to grind out the gold and mats too evolve just 1 piece of gear which they know that time will increase with each evolve. They feel like they will never see any of the new content for many many months and then when they get their AP high enough so they can enter the 1st of the epic instances that a patch has given a new patch comes of and they feel so left out.

   Yes every game has it's grind but even so you are given the time to grind before new content is released but not in B&S, we are getting years of content in just a few months. It's great for those with no lives or who can spend a pile of real cash and progress fast but for those who only play a few hours a day it's no fun when all you do in those couple of hours is grind and nothing else.

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Arohk   
1 hour ago, Shukran said:

6mencan crit too

4men crit is higher crit.

market can trade materials.

yes , indeed.

i have seen one drop of 1 pack of 10 stingers ONCE, but you still need to bid your gold on them, they went of for ~22 gold or so.

In theory you need to have 6 of those rare drops to get it once by bidding.

Stingers are 3 Gold a piece in the market right now.

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Yetan   
15 hours ago, H2H said:

Can someone explain this for me? I mean, yeah, there is grinding required. But does anyone remember an MMO that DIDN'T have grinding required?

People are different. What some people see as acceptable grind could be just too much for others. 

 

I play World of Warcraft. When people complained about the grind to get flying in Draenor, I thought the complaint was unfounded, because it only took a couple of weeks of playing the game, not like doing the same quests or dungeons everyday for a couple of weeks. I wonder how far these complainers can go in BnS.

 

On the other hand, I feel BnS is very grindy. I think anyone, who has a 500+ AP weapon and didn't pay real money to upgrade, can tolerate more grinds than I can. I just can't repeat the same quest over and over again.

 

What I do is picking a set of dailies and dungeons (less than 10 all together), do them everyday for a week. Then I'll switch to another set of quests of my choices for the next week. I'll only do the mushroom dailies until I get enough to buy one crystal, which would take less than 2 weeks. This is how I make this game somewhat enjoyable for me before I can't take it any longer.

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Sithaer   
17 minutes ago, Yetan said:

People are different. What some people see as acceptable grind could be just too much for others. 

 

 

Thats true,I also can't stand endless grinding like running the same dungeon for hours every day so I just take it easy and run only stuff I actually feel like to.

Thats one of the reasons why I'm not yet in a Clan since I don't like being forced to do stuff in a game.

 

At this rate if I'm lucky and still playing this game I will have my awakened scorpio weapon by the end of the year but thats fine with me.

 

 

Edited by Sithaer

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Shukran   
20 minutes ago, Arohk said:

yes , indeed.

i have seen one drop of 1 pack of 10 stingers ONCE, but you still need to bid your gold on them, they went of for ~22 gold or so.

In theory you need to have 6 of those rare drops to get it once by bidding.

Stingers are 3 Gold a piece in the market right now.

i got a record of 50ish stingers in all asura4 dungeon.

 

but we where a guild team, as a moorpg is supposed to be, hence we divided equally.

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