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Money doesn't buy skill


Malign

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I understand that there is a large problem with attack power requirements for dungeons the don't need them, but on the opposite end of the spectrum there is also a problem with high attack power people plain and simply having no idea what they're doing. Earlier today I was in a 500ap party for a yeti 6. Ofc 500ap is overkill for that boss, but it was pretty early in the day so not many people were running it. After waiting a few minutes a 450ap joins and immediately one of the party members asks to kick them. I convinced led to go in anyways an we did. This run was one of the biggest train wrecks I had ever seen. That 500ap was an auto detonate FM who couldn't keep up burn and died. By the time you reach 500ap you should know yeti's mechanics inside and out. ESPECIALLY FM since we have a lot to bring to the table in that dungeon. Later in necro i divided the teams. 1 person solo camp 2 duos, and myself solo lycan. Fastest set up right? Well 2 people decided not to listen and left our weakest member a 420ap Sum alone to solo soul ward. Fortunately he held on, but still it's simple directions. A lot of 550ap Asura runs fail cause people don't bother to learn how the boss functions. I could get a party of 480s that listen to me through asura easier than these 550ap randoms. Id sooner kick all these high ap people for people who can actually use their character. I'm grateful I have a clan with skilled individuals who cn run these dungeons, even if their ap isn't the highest or id go insane. Please people learn the boss mechanics, it's not too hard.

 

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Well, this is why I prefer to solo if possible for my upgrades and try to earn them rather than rely on the market.

 

Unfortunately, thanks to horrid dungeons, a terrible crafting system, along with a serving of bad RNG, you are pretty much forced to rely on the market if you plan on getting past Awakened Infernal anytime soon, as one of the materials to need to make Moonwater Trans Stones is gated behind a recipe from one dungeon that almost never drops.

 

It's especially stupid as it's for the Tier 3 Premium Refiners, when the first two were unlocked automatically, requiring no recipe. NCSoft suddenly can't be consistent.

 

And, depending on the faction situation, getting soulstones can be just as much of a pain, and unless you can solo the Moonwater dungeons, have fun fighting among the rest of the team for those tears. Funny how people say "you're not meant to play alone" when this game does almost nothing to encourage grouping.

 

Sadly, money is valued over skill.

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this... yeti6 500, yeti4 580, this people fail it 3 times, disband, make new pug, i experienced this today (smarter of them just need fm to carry them with stun and frost sheath LOL)

does it have any solution to avoid? never run with randoms, allways wait for clan? it will make everything so much slower, especially when i just wanna do quick daily

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I'm always seeing people say this on the forums, but I play this game all day, every day cuz I have no life, and this has never been my experience. What I found is in the middle(around 450-550) it doesn't seem to make a difference, but on the low end and high end AP almost always=skill. The 350-400 players are almost always the first to die, and the 600-650 players are almost always performing very well. It only makes sense. People who have high AP have invested a lot into the game. Most people who invest a lot into a game will care a lot more about the game than some 350 AP crybaby who complains about "upgrades 2 hard" instead of just running a few dailies and upgrading their weapon before going into level 50 dungeons. I've seen people as low as 276 in the level 50 purple dungeons. It's sickening. I remember a while back in a failed Yeti run where we hit the enrage timer, I demonstrated to the low AP players how little they are doing with their low AP since there's no DPS meter. I did over half of Yeti's HP by myself. The 5 of them combined couldn't even do as much as a single high AP player. Granted, half of them died to mechanics. 

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1 hour ago, Doson said:

People who have high AP have invested a lot into the game

I did met some ppl in battleground / asura 4 with legendary weapon (maybe they did spend money, maybe not) and they literally SUCK, 0 skill, they didn't know about their own class. So invest is not always skill, if u are talking about money ofc, cause u can spend time to improve yourself,

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1 hour ago, Doson said:

I'm always seeing people say this on the forums, but I play this game all day, every day cuz I have no life, and this has never been my experience. What I found is in the middle(around 450-550) it doesn't seem to make a difference, but on the low end and high end AP almost always=skill. The 350-400 players are almost always the first to die, and the 600-650 players are almost always performing very well. It only makes sense. People who have high AP have invested a lot into the game. Most people who invest a lot into a game will care a lot more about the game than some 350 AP crybaby who complains about "upgrades 2 hard" instead of just running a few dailies and upgrading their weapon before going into level 50 dungeons. I've seen people as low as 276 in the level 50 purple dungeons. It's sickening. I remember a while back in a failed Yeti run where we hit the enrage timer, I demonstrated to the low AP players how little they are doing with their low AP since there's no DPS meter. I did over half of Yeti's HP by myself. The 5 of them combined couldn't even do as much as a single high AP player. Granted, half of them died to mechanics. 

I agree. Higher end ap = more likely to be skilled with dungeon mechanics. But there are a lot of mid tier players ~500ap or so that are still quite skilled, and are only in that ap range because they don't no life it or shell out money. There are some 500ap players in my clan that I'd rather take to 4mans than 580+ players because they are really good with their class and know the mechanics of the dungeons. Like with Asura it's even more focused on mechanics, and even a 490ap player would be more beneficial to the party if they are able to constantly dps and stay alive and maintain buffs...whereas a 650+ap could be lying on the floor dead the whole time or not dpsing a lot since he's constantly getting hit by the boss, or not doing mechanics properly. It's possible to 4man Asura with 500ap players with 20%acc, belt, and antidotes because of the ap buffs. 

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Just now, SpartanGamer said:

I agree. Higher end ap = more likely to be skilled with dungeon mechanics. But there are a lot of mid tier players ~500ap or so that are still quite skilled, and are only in that ap range because they don't no life it or shell out money. There are some 500ap players in my clan that I'd rather take to 4mans than 580+ players because they are really good with their class and know the mechanics of the dungeons. Like with Asura it's even more focused on mechanics, and even a 490ap player would be more beneficial to the party if they are able to constantly dps and stay alive and maintain buffs...whereas a 650+ap could be lying on the floor dead the whole time or not dpsing a lot since he's constantly getting hit by the boss, or not doing mechanics properly. It's possible to 4man Asura with 500ap players with 20%acc, belt, and antidotes because of the ap buffs. 

Its a simple reason, there are no other ways apart from AP to estimate someone's skill in the cross dungeon lobby, there is no such thing as "skill level measure" implemented into the game, so the only information you have that you have quick access on when you first meet someone in a lobby is their AP. See it as having some sort of correlation, high AP means comparatively more chance to be experienced than low AP by probability.

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Em i have 499 ap and i have done 3 times naryu lab 3 times yeti 6man 4 x fang.

So i dont know well mechanics but i know to iframe xd.

Point is that ap doesnt mean a great deal what matters is a decend ap n knowing mechanics

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Yes those p2w people....then you do a 6v6 battleground against a team of players with true scorpion / legendary weapons.....

And you.....in just true oathbreaker accessories and only true breeze weapon manage to kill 4 of them.....because they are bad in pvp

 

what happens next? you get whispers cause the ppl were from your server calling you a hacker cause u beat 4 of them and that they reported you for hacking....

 

(yes that happened to me xD i was laughing for 2 days cause of this)

 

Money doesnt equal skill xD thats a perfect example.

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33 minutes ago, SpiralFlame said:

Its a simple reason, there are no other ways apart from AP to estimate someone's skill in the cross dungeon lobby, there is no such thing as "skill level measure" implemented into the game, so the only information you have that you have quick access on when you first meet someone in a lobby is their AP. See it as having some sort of correlation, high AP means comparatively more chance to be experienced than low AP by probability.

So you're basically paraphrasing what I and the above person just said? I don't know why you're explaining this simple concept to me when I just supported that idea?

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9 minutes ago, SpartanGamer said:

 

So you're basically paraphrasing what I and the above person just said? I don't know why you're explaining this simple concept to me when I just supported that idea?

Your point was skills matters more than AP sometimes, e.g. how you mentioned you'd rather bring guildies with 500 instead of randoms with 580. My point on the other hand is you have no access to the information on a players "Skillfulness" in the lobby, hence AP is the only way to measure. Completely different argument. I'm here emphasizing on "No access to skillfulness information" which you haven't mentioned anywhere.

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1 minute ago, SpiralFlame said:

Your point was skills matters more than AP sometimes, e.g. how you mentioned you'd rather bring guildies with 500 instead of randoms with 580. My point on the other hand is you have no access to the information on a players "Skillfulness" in the lobby, hence AP is the only way to measure. Completely different argument. 

" I agree. Higher end ap = more likely to be skilled with dungeon mechanics. But there are a lot of mid tier players ~500ap or so that are still quite skilled, and are only in that ap range because they don't no life it or shell out money.  "

 

My point was that ap was the primary indicator of skill, hence why I wrote that first sentence. The principle thing you missed was the use of "But" in the second sentence to demonstrate an exception to the AP rule. I do not know how that wasn't easily understood, but there can be exceptions. What I was saying was: Ap = measure of skill, but there are exceptions to this rule.  

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Just now, SpartanGamer said:

" I agree. Higher end ap = more likely to be skilled with dungeon mechanics. But there are a lot of mid tier players ~500ap or so that are still quite skilled, and are only in that ap range because they don't no life it or shell out money.  "

 

My point was that ap was the primary indicator of skill, hence why I wrote that first sentence. The principle thing you missed was the use of "But" in the second sentence to demonstrate an exception to the AP rule. I do not know how that wasn't easily understood, but there can be exceptions. What I was saying was: Ap = measure of skill, but there are exceptions to this rule.  

Yes I support you point, I was just adding to that the "exceptions" are not identifiable when forming a new party. I meant it as a reply to the post, adding to your point, hence the quote.

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1 hour ago, Piper said:

That might be true if you couldn't buy your way to the top. But you can. So it isn't.

Money is an investment, and yeah, yes it does. Most people don't invest money in a game they don't care about. Next time you respond to someone you should read what they wrote, not what you want to think they wrote.

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The real problem is people don't change their standards as updates come like they're supposed to. Current p2w ap is 700ap. 600ap is high tier. While 500 is the current mid tier. Anyone who has below that is considered trash, especially if they're hm8 or higher. What are you doing that you can't get 500ap when you are doing full dailies (maybe even p2w) everyday?

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7 hours ago, babeln said:

this... yeti6 500, yeti4 580, this people fail it 3 times, disband, make new pug, i experienced this today (smarter of them just need fm to carry them with stun and frost sheath LOL)

does it have any solution to avoid? never run with randoms, allways wait for clan? it will make everything so much slower, especially when i just wanna do quick daily

As FM when I pug I don't even stun nore V anymore cause there's ALWAYS the guy who will grab it.... And we just lose hearts for free anyway. D:

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The game should not, plain and simple, chain everyone into doing purple dungeons. Those should only be for people who want special things. They are called Heroic for a reason, they are hard, you need to know mechanics and all that. The other game I played let you gear well enough without running the higher tier group content. Basically, we should be able to have Okay gear by running blues, and not be forced to go into purples. Moreover, not hundreds of times.

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Agreed with Domi. If the purple dungeons gave their own special stuff but didn't have something I needed for upgrades gated behind them, I would just leave them be and probably not have any major issue with that. But one of the upgrade system's flaws it that you pretty much have no choice but to run them sooner or later. Even if you could try crafting an Illusion weapon and those actually counted for the upgrade, the recipe requires materials that you only get from the dungeon anyways, rendering that moot for an alternate path (along with the ridiculous craft time).

 

It especially gets worse when a material you need for a certain transformation stone or two is not unlocked normally like before, but gated behind a recipe that almost never drops (in a dungeon that most classes cannot clear by themselves unless they're 50 or so, despite being blue). As a result, you either have to keep running it and hope it drops...or rely on the marketplace and grind up a lot of gold if you want to upgrade, every single time for each piece of gear. It's horrendous.

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So from what i read....according to most of you Higher AP means more skillfullness and higher chance to clear?

 

Ok explain me this:

 

what about a player who has 530 AP but his critical damage is 300? or his critical is 1500? Explain to  me how in this case higher AP means more skilled? Honestly i rather take someone with lower AP but overall better stats rhather than pure AP alone, since clearly the person with 530 AP has no clue.

 

Higher AP  means only upgraded gear and nothing more, tells you nothing about a skill of a player nor does it make it more likely to clear. You can have a person in legendary weapon and maxed accessories but if he has no clue how to play or how the dungeon works you will wipe anyway regardless.

 

So better get off your high horses and stop making these ridiculous requirements up cause thats just plain silly.

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