Blade master PVE build - Fire vs Lightning

[pwNzy0u]

Hi everyone,

 

I've tested this two builds in PVE doing daily quests/yeti/necro etc.

 

So, not everyone uses Dragontongue+Lunar Slash and I'm here to say why you should use that.

 

Well, let's start :D

 

Sure, with lightning build our dps while in Blade Call is superior cuz anti-cancel animation with Honed Slash+Fliker and you get "infinite" focus to do it, but, after that we need to manage our focus to try to keep our dps and here is where we lose to fire build.

 

This two Fliker's I Switch every day

-Fliker S1T4 - Very good skill, against alot of mobs and against certain boss, can be replaced for Fliker S3T3 when you need range for hiting the boss. BUT Fliker S3T3 is double as faster and lose a little bit of damage, something like > Fliker S1T4 = 3k/3.5k(blade echo) Perhit and Fliker S3T3 = 2k/2.5k(when stack) per hit, but remember, you hit twice with Fliker S3T3 compared to Fliker S1T4

-Fliker S3T3 - How I said, superior against one target but when we need to handle alot of mobs, switch to Fliker S1T4

 

Exemple rotation for dps

Lightning -> Blade call > spam Honed Slash + Anti-cancel with Fliker S1T4 (Simple exemple, I'll not talk about all skills that you will/could use). After our Blade Call, we have to Block+Cyclone to get some focus, Lunar Slash + Fissure or use autoattack in Basic stance. We lose so many time doing dps cuz of that. 

Fire -> Lunar Slash S1T3  > Dragontongue > Fliker S3T3 Between Dragontongue CD > Dragontongue > Lunar Slash.

Note that using Dragontongue our Lunar Slash reduces 4 secs cd. We can use 2 Dragontongue to get our Lunar Slash back and Fliker Between. Focus will never be a problem and Lunar Slash have a good damage.

 

My point is:
With fire build you will always doing dps, and a good one, lose ofc for the burst of lightning build in his 20sec but wins in longer terms cuz lack of focus that we have after blade call in lightning build.

When I play with Fire build I feel a good difference. I would say that> Honed Slash PVP and Dragontongue PVE

TL;DR = Dragontongue+Lunar Slash = Infinite focus/infinite dps rotation because of Cooldown reduction of Lunar Slash. Honed Slash I feel that is more effective in PVP.

[Els]

First it is 'ani-cancel' not ANTI.
You did not even talk about Dragontongue not having CD if the target is grabbed, gripped, phantom gripped.
You did not mention the Breeze / Pierce ani-cancel.

[OniOfTheSword]

8 hours ago, Els said:

First it is 'ani-cancel' not ANTI.
You did not even talk about Dragontongue not having CD if the target is grabbed, gripped, phantom gripped.
You did not mention the Breeze / Pierce ani-cancel.

Honestly, the breeze/pierce ani-cancel isn't worth mentioning for the majority of the EU/NA player base, thanks to the servers we're in. Most of the time, my flame flicker is faster than pierce at max boost.

 

But on the whole, I agree with OP's point. Though I like lightning build more than fire, fire just brings more to the table, staying in draw stance for much much longer being the biggest advantage. Having legendaries could change that though.

[breadANDbutter]

one thing tho> with lightning build.. u deal more dmg when u use the RMB after canceling lmb.. which is around 10k to 12k per rmb without cd then the setback is u need to regenerate focus later...the lmb+rmb spamming deal huge dmg

but i didnt really test like in 1 min.. which build can spam more dmg..

 

[Rinehart]

I'm honestly wondering about all these BMs talking about lack of focus with lightning build. We have so many methods to regen focus that in a minute, your time out of Draw Stance should be very low (less than 10 seconds if you manage all of your skills correctly).  Once you get a good weapon (True Siren iirc) you have a chance to proc 100% focus regen on hit. Blade Call v skill regens a lot of focus so don't use your other focus regens with that up.  Z near the end of Blade Call to regen focus (chance to proc weapon even without this specced).  Then between Blade Calls, Sunder Sword for high focus.  With that on cooldown, utilize your tab (specced for focus regen) your Draw Stance 2 (specced for focus regen) and your Draw Stance 3 for focus.  Don't waste them.  Flash Step can also proc the weapon effect so use that to your advantage too.  With all of this in mind, whenever you drop Draw Stance, your SS/Q should be off cool down and you should be able to use it immediately to get right back in.  And remember that Cyclone regens focus over a period of time too.

 

Lightning build deals more damage, but the only thing that makes it less consistent than fire build is because of the supposed "lack of focus".  But honestly?  I run lightning build on my BM and I almost never feel focus starved.

[Stormpooper]

Blade call itself (with V) doesn't provide the focus I need to maintain full speed ani-cancel. Sundering sword is just meh, only good when coupled with 2 and TAB. Cyclone depends on the boss. The weapon trigger can be a douche at times, I don't rely on it at all. I still stick with lightning since damage really is better though.

[Reyals]

This is my point of view

 

 

[Mhysa]

17 hours ago, Reyals said:

This is my point of view

 

 

You barely used lunar slash in the fire video. Try it with lunar slash and compare again. Or tell me your stat and I can test it for you.

[Kazna]

rofl why ppl dont use fuc...g F with lightining build, with each honed  hit you reduce cooldown, also lunar slash for chi recovery, well imo they are about same, just fire build is ez to execute, since its very simple build, and lightining require kinda more understanding. its up to you what you want to use. 

[Enoll]

I streamed both builds here for one of my friends (Lilmei), pay attention to the time left between both builds - https://www.twitch.tv/enol_/v/67201946

[SGYu]

2 hours ago, Enoll said:

I streamed both builds here for one of my friends (Lilmei), pay attention to the time left between both builds - https://www.twitch.tv/enol_/v/67201946

Looks like you have a considerable amount of time left using the fire build. My fellow guildmate also reccomended it for single bosses.

[Suna]

i wonder why players not use flash step? it can do really high damage and cost 0 chi. With lightning build you can use it even more often.

[BuckForte]

I second this

firebuild is better

however it's not convenient

put it in perspective

 

it's good for boss but

when it comes to small mob, it's really useless lol.

I mean you can use Singing Lark for small mob

but I hate that skill because animation is slow and your movement is limited

i can kite mobs with flicker but not singing lark.

overall I say that fire build is a lot stronger

however I don't like it because it's not stylish

i like lightning build more

i play bm solely for the Lightning uni-cancel, it look cool ok?

[WayOfTheBacon]

lol, ppl are still debating fire Vs lightning?!...TBH whenever I see dupe BMs with lightning build in Yeti, I leave right away, its automatic gg.
The thing I don't get is why are ppl debating something as obvious as day and night; The correct flame build is flicker+tongue AND T3S1 LunaSlash which is spammable every 4sec complimentated with tongue.

 

The only good thing about lightning over flame is its burst potential, but is only viable in PvP.

The funny thing is how ppl always talk about how much dmg they do in one burst with lightning. Bosses have millions of HP, what we need in dungeons is "consistant" dps, and only flame build can offer that. No body cares how high you can burst when you have to use the garbage skill breeze all the time....omg the pain to see these BMs use breeze all the time in yeti...

For those ppl who are saying Lightning > flame in PvE, obviously you are doing something wrong. Get the correct build and try flame build correctly before posting false information srsly.

Flame > Lightning is a fact. Doesn't matter how hard you try to overrate lightning.

I'd rather take 500+ Ap flame BM than 600+ lightning BM to dungeons .... srsly >:(

[DannyMayCry]

Also after you use dragontongue, immediately press E and spam LMB and RMB, to back into Draw stance and repeat.

[Stormpooper]

@WayOfTheBacon now that's just flaming, calm down. Seriously.

I stick with lightning and the only time I use breeze is right before and right after sundering sword, to get full chi back and into draw stance again. Why do I get the impression you are comparing noob lightning BMs with pro fire BMs? (not that the "correct" example of fire you gave is a pro fire BM)

Remember, BM usually tanks. Even though F1 cyclone is better for lightning, I can deal with F2, too. You see, the burst of lightning is clearly superior and it leaves room to sleep during it's cooldown because you have a lot of aggro on you already, letting you focus on surviving (if that's ever a problem). We are not the main DPS class, why would we need constant DPS if our job in our current party is to tank? Of course I'm not saying you should just sit there, you have skills to use while bladecall is on CD.

@DannyMayCry yes, we know about pierce-breeze ani-cancel. No, you do not just spam LMB and RMB.

 

[Dlacik]

Actualy fire build got two nice buffs in recent patch. I think that at the moment fire build can do more dps then lightning.
 

Quote

Flicker (LMB)

• Awakened Flicker now gains even more increased attack speed when you have learned Flicker Stage 3.

Thanks to this you can spam aw flicker as fast as you would spam your normal flicker, making it nice dmg boost.

Quote

Dragontongue (RMB)

• Dragontongue (Tier 2 Stage 3) can now be used without cooldown on a target affected by Blade Storm but will deal less additional damage.

Before patch we could hit blade stormed enemy only with 2 dragontongues. Now we can spam dragontongue without CD even when the boss isn`t grabed by destro/BD.

 

Even when you say that our job is to tank our dps in group still matter. It`s better for everyone if the boss/mobs dies faster. Yeah, we probably can`t compete in dps with FMs or sins, but we can still do enough dps to make a difference.

 

How would the 4-men runs look like if BM says he is there only to tank. Destro says he is there to CC/grab boss and warlock says he is there to buff? :D

[Els]

1 hour ago, Stormpooper said:

yes, we know about pierce-breeze ani-cancel. No, you do not just spam LMB and RMB.

 

How do you do pierce-breeze ani-cancel ? 

[Stormpooper]

@Dlacik did you read what I said? ("Of course I'm not saying you should just sit there"). Yes, our dps makes a difference, but there are no exact numbers in lightning vs fire damage so the build that fits you better is still the one you should use.

@Els I am not the explanation guy;

 I use lightning, my knowledge on this matter is mostly theoretical; furthermore, with high ping (high as in over 150, sometimes 300 (blah blah playing with high ping blah)) I couldn't do it even if I wanted to.

There has to be some guide out there, or at least tips. But how you do it depends on your ping so there's not too much to say. Experiment with it. Just not randomly spam both buttons hoping to achieve something.

[Mevelios]

@Stormpooper Though I do agree this sir Bacon's comment amounts to flaming, unfortunately with the recent update, you can hardly say lightning is still on par with fire. :/

I mean, dragontongue no longer has any CD during blade storm. If you already had an ally using a grab/grapple/grip skill, you could experience the terrifying burst it allowed, which we can now realize on our own; I managed to land 7 hits without CD, so not counting the 8th that finally triggered the CD (I used lightning draw once out of the draw stance from the first 4 uses since it's far quicker than using an evade or a blindside, my network was faring well at the moment but I was standing around 150 ms). If I saw it right, the 8th hit wasn't under blade storm's frame so I didn't benefit from the bonus damages, but that 8th use meant I went again into basic stance, this precise use doesn't trigger any CD, so I could get back into draw stance and use this skill for the 9th time. I love the lightning build as well, but this recent improvement that has been brought to the fire build seriously outshines the lightning build now... :(

 

Don't get me wrong, I think as well that any player of any class should use the build that suits him/her the most, not "dat most imba build cuz U gotta deal best dmgz" (if anything, that way of thinking just pisses me to no end). But numbers-wise, you can speculate safely: individually, every dragontongue lands basically half more damages, and bonus damages against a blade storm/grip/etc target are similar (+5% in favor of lightning). Sure, dragontongue gets a 2.5s CD, but it's a perfect window with a bit of room left to land a five-point strike or a full flash step. You could obviously argue that this CD is countered easily by the fact honed slash doesn't have any: under that duration, it's roughly the time it takes you to land 3 honed slashes. So yes, under this frame dragontongue only deals half of the damages that 3 honed slashes would land, but not only do you have to consider the cost in focus, you have to consider flicker.

 

Then, you could compare both of these flickers: more initial damages for lightning, but bonus damages over consecutive uses for fire allow it to be on par. Slight advantage for individual uses to the lightning one, for its 5% crit rate bonus (I'll ignore blade echo since you aren't exactly supposed to make use of it, but if the situation required leaving the melee, then lightning is better).

However, when you look closer at the picture, the 2.5s delay between every dragontongue equals 3 honed slashes & 3 flickers, for the fire build this frame enables 6 uses of flicker. 3 flickers for both builds are equal, so it amounts to the 3 remaining fire flickers against what dragontongue missed to be on par with 3 honed slashes. Fire flicker standing around 45% in value of what would one honed slash land, easy maths here let you know which build is favored by numbers. :/

 

To finish this part about comparing these duets, honed slash gets back on par with fire (and even gets a slight advantage) if you have the opportunity to get bonus damages from a stun/daze/knockdown landed on your target. Fact that unfortunately gets countered by the bonus damages that cumulate from the progressing uses of dragontongue (first hit lands initial damages, second hit get a ~17% bonus, third gets ~33%, last ~50% more and my numbers here are slightly underrated).

 

But it's not all about both of those skills: in favor of fire, lunar slash enters into account, getting refreshed every 2 uses of dragontongue.

In opposition, flash step can have a 1s CD reduction through honed slash, a bit late for maths but to my mind, the refreshes on lunar slash enable a higher damages output (I'll rethink it after a short night's sleep).

What remains is the pierce-breeze anicancel for fire build, upon leaving draw stance it's more efficient than a simple flicker bashing. But since you don't get any CD on dragontongue for the last use that gets you into basic stance, you don't lose anything going back immediately into draw stance.

 

So once you put it all together, before the recent update both builds were on par, but now that the fire build can have a terrifying burst that is even higher than the lightning one... I don't like saying it, but yeah, regarding numbers the fire build deals better damages. Hope there will be something for the lightning build to be back on par with fire? I sure hope so, the fire build feels too repetitive, especially when you can afford ignoring the pierce-breeze anicancel (bashing pierce on its own works as well, but it's as boring as bashing fire's flicker). :(

[Avalyn]

You guys are all blabbing about how new patch buffed fire build and all but you completely ignore the massive buff that lightning build got?

 

Raid (2)

• Raid (Tier 2 Stage 1) has had its cooldown reduced to 12, down from 18 seconds.  Increased Focus Recovery to 6, up from 2.

[Stormpooper]

@Mevelios did you really have to make me read something that long? If you had read the other posts about fire vs lightning you would have seen i do not say either is superior and what you said here, I've already said elsewhere (or thought of. close enough (not the exact math part doe)).

I tried testing this for myself and at low crit levels fire is way stronger. However, if you have ~55% crit chance and ~210% crit damage, lightning build will give you 65% crit chance and 230% crit damage (afaik). Fire doesn't really benefit from this (especially in basic stance pierce-breeze (no, you don't use pierce-HM breeze ani-cancel during fighting spirit.)). Meanwhile, lightning build lets you extend ani-cancel with that.

Anyway, during my test, one thing was clear to me: as long as I can keep my full speed ani-cancel going (4 flickers and 4 honed slashes in ~2.6 sec), fire can't compete. Now it just comes down to your party. Again, I've said this stuff elsewhere and I won't get into it.

 

I wonder if this would work: Use Asura threat bracelet and F1 cyclone, that will give you infinite focus and enough threat to keep aggro on you with ~equal AP party members. And HM block isn't all that necessary on some bosses.

@Avalyn We noticed. I just don't think it's worth mentioning because there still is no way to get infinite chi going without rng crits, weapon triggers, F1 cyclone and party members (which is my goal).

 

 

Forgot to mention: my main point is that the difference in DPS won't make a big difference (like up to 10 extra seconds) in a boss fight. That is why you should stick with what you like.

[Tsuzor]

Well idk why are u making this all big fuss about both builds as Stormpooper said:

1 hour ago, Stormpooper said:

That is why you should stick with what you like.

Ill say this i dont like fire build thats why im using lightning build. Why:

1. Spamming flicker annoys me

2. Fire build flicker has no aoe, i like to use my flicker to recover in mass mobs and if i ani-cancel i can do still damage to other mobs around my target, or if boss leaps away and u have no gap closer i can use flicker to crit and use flesh step after to get closer even if i dont finish it it still deals good dmg. 

3. And im just way more use to lightning build than fire

 

And i rly idk wut build is better, but for me its lightning build better maybe for some other ppl fire is better but i rly dont care in numbers how much each build does, if ur good with lightning build u can deal constant good dmg too with it

[Mevelios]

@Stormpooper Haha, sorry 'bout that huge chunk of text, once I begin throwing ideas together I can't stop until I feel like I've considered almost every fact revolving around what I'm talking about. xD

I've been away from the game & forums for a few weeks so indeed, I didn't read many other posts especially when many of them are duplicates (and I don't follow anyone, we all have better to do with our time than following someone). Well, I guess I should've made a quote, I was replying to you saying "there are no exact numbers in lightning vs fire damages", which in my eyes felt easy to speculate about since I feel a huge difference ingame, when it were before on par.

However you're right, I didn't consider much the favorable randomness in additional focus recovery at high crit rates. I'm standing a bit above 45% without any bonus (so a fair 50% once in draw stance) which is low considering I'm way behind the current "level" of gear, so indeed from my tests fire feels more damaging, though once more I agree with you, anyone should play what suits him/her the best. So I guess I'll stick with the hope I'll find again some balance between fire & lightning builds once my gear will be in better shape, I definitely don't want to stick with this boring fire build!

 

When you're saying in lightning build you get 10% additional crit rate, I do see the 5% coming from T4S1 flicker, but what would the remaining 5% come from? I already know the percentages we get from going into draw stance, which apply to both lightning & fire build, but I can't find anything else for this bonus (unless the T4S1 flicker buff stacks, I must admit I never paid much attention to it).

By the way, if you have any hints for optimising focus recovery phases in lightning build, mind sharing some (unless you already gave some pointers in another post)? You were saying here you could afford using breeze only before and after sundering sword, which I can't seem to perform - though I do get the same result if it's only about one phase using sunder, I regularly get another recovery phase during which I have to rely on T2S1 shoulder charge & breeze (ofc, unlike some proudly displaying their videos on this forum with their advanced gear and obvious lack of knowledge about the class, I know how to make use of recoveries from lunar slash, raid, T2S1 cyclone, five-point strike, whirling scourge, and how not to waste them, as well as zero expenditure time AKA flash step). Or is it there that my outdated gear denies me the favorable RNG for additional recoveries you quoted? Thanks in advance!

[Stormpooper]

@Mevelios man you're really making me work today. I'm not the explanation guy though.
1. dw 'bout me complaining, I read this when I'm bored anyway;

2. I'm undergeared (True breeze #sadlife) (Not that we need anything above awakened, max true scorpio anyway, it's just the people) (seraph buffed would be really nice though, I want 30 sec CD bladecall (20% = 12 sec + 12 sec duration + whirling scourge if you manage to keep it)) (man this is a lot of brackets and they're not going to end yet);

3. other posts are just an excuse for me being lazy, dw 'bout it either.

 

No, flicker does not stack, it refreshes the effect upon every hit. I was talking about the overall increase, though I was kind of thinking about pierce-breeze (which is not in draw stance obv = no crit buff) since flicker would bore me to death faster than any boss.

About the focus - I suggest experimenting for yourself. Though I will say this - try increasing hit count when you're low on focus recovery utility, more RNG triggers (blade call C w/e it's called + lightning pentagram is a nice example). In addition to that, don't use your blade call right off the bat - it's 12+ seconds (more if you combine this with past notes) of focus recovery to stall other stuff (sundering sword, flash step, 5pt etc etc). And if you see that you will run out of utility after some particular skill, try flexibility - fill the gap BEFORE that last skill with let's say cyclone (I'm seriously considering taking F1 cyclone + asura threat bracelet because it's infinite focus whenever a boss launches a blockable attack).

 

Let's not talk about advanced gear people. Some of them might recognize themselves mentioned in scrub posts.

 

btw don't stay with fire if you really dislike fire. I won't repeat myself but I said something at the end of the last reply.

 

I forgot what I forgot to mention. Oh well.

 

Edit:

In addition to DPS time, there are windows when you can't really do anything to the boss OR have to recover (shoulder charge 10% AMAZING (you didn't think you have seen the last of these brackets, have you)) - time those to get advantage too if you're that into math.