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convience me


Jaffar

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Hello I am kind of still new in FM world. I need someone to convince me tha FIRE is better in pve than ICE.
I have 500ap and I ran all currently end game content.

How I pve:
1)Instant inferno
2) Fire V skill comment
3)press F to get fire orbit
4) get 3 frozen orbit &shoot dragon
5)Shoot 4-5 ice rains
6) press Z Cold snap
7) for next 12-13 sec keep spamming 2 (ice rain) and Z (cold snap)
8) keep spamming RMB + F ice (healing F btw) while inferno is on cd
9) press X ice-snowball when gets off cooldown
10) repeat when inferno gets off cooldown

I tried fire but isn't 2-fire just too slow animation? if u run 1 that sets enemy on fire (i think this is idiotic) u again have very slow animation skill. Yes last tier of LMB does some very awsome extra dmg on burning enemy. But in 2 weeks we are getting RMB upgraded too that lets u keep shooting RMB-F combo even if u have very bad rng with getting crit. Like I need some hardcore PVE FM (that mained FM from beginning or even earlier) to convince me about this fire thingy.


PS. I will upgrade C-fire too just too fun when I get skill points atm I am HM-4.

 

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Both are good in PVE and no one is better than the other..

Whoever tells you that burn is better than frost in PVE must have never tried a proper frost FM build/couldn't manage to play one and thinks they are the best because,they are doing well with burn build..Just don't bother with them or ask them for a real evidence..

 

There is no DPS meter yet so what's their evidence?They steal aggro from us earlier?Frost FMs steal aggro from them later on which indicates the following:

 

Burn build just has good burst in "Short term" but on long term both Frost and burn FMs damage evens out and they do almost same damage..Not only that but Frost actually has potential to do more damage than burn at some point and my evidence for that is that I am an FM with 433 AP and in many occasions I would manage to steal aggro from burn FMs or Warlocks or BM tanks after some time.

That is because,burn FMs can deal more damage per attack but Frost FMs can do far more attacks per second..Ice rain combo and RMB>>F>>F combo are the best example for that.

It is an attack damage vs attack speed thingie that evens out later on.

 

Every build has its ups and downs so no build is better than the other but its rather according to player preferences.

Just like how I respect how they are using burn build,they should respect how I am using a frost build.

 

My FM is HM 4 level 50 and its the only character I have that is higher than level 45.

I have been playing/maining it since forever and probably won't main anything else till soul fighter comes out.

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Ice is fun once in a while when you get bored of fire but really, 4 simple reasons:

 

1. Cold Snap is not available to you whenever you need it.

 

2. Moving targets, making your Cold Snap totally useless if let's say someone kites it away.

 

3. Multiple targets.

 

4. Lots of variations of fire to tailor to your skill/playstyle/fun level.

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My 2 cents on this topic - as a primary ice FM:

- Burn is definitely more effective than Ice

- The difference is not that big as many imagine - of course if a proper Ice build is compared with proper Burn build. Incorret builds or rotations will anyway screw everything.

- Ice is much more relaxing and less error-prone than Burn

- Auto-detonate is not THAT big of a problem as many cry - of course it's not nice, but 2 FMs can keep the burn with only using C and X.

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Burn build is more reliable imho. 

It takes short time to stack ember and you could burn target with C and you already have massive damage from 2 and auto cancel. 

Ice build has damage as long as the target remains in the cold snap area, but to land 2 skill on the enemy also takes time to hit it. It also is really focus hungry build, due to the 2 skill you are spamming, you have to use recover focus skills to keep up. 

On the other hand, there are so many fm's that uses auto detonate, that you cannot sustain burn with force blast, so it is pretty annoying. 

 

 

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Only people that want to spam 1 button play ICe.Fire > Ice.

My LB crit for 6.5-7k.

My RB crit for 2.

My Blazing Beam crit for 13.5-15k.

and in between every 4-5 sec I do Aura blast - 6-7k crits.When I unlock the HM skill it will be over 12k.

I can spam it all day long.Burn is easy to apply almost everywhere.IF boss move I'm not screwed(Like in Ice build) and has no CD.

 

To convince you? Pff,play whatever you want,but when DPS metter arrive in West people will realise that with ICE you`re doing 20-30% lower dmg.

 

In next patch we unlock 2.Each crit of blazing beam reduce dual dragon CD by 1sec.And my dual dragon crit for 25k.Oh well.

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I'm not convinced Fire is better than Ice.... Both have their differences which breeds a 'mine is better than yours' mentality but in my opinion,

 

Fire - It's highs are high but its lows are low

 

Ice - Good all around with no downtime

 

After switching back to ice from fire I kill mobs/adds a lot faster and I'm getting aggro pretty much all the time now even when I think I shouldn't as in running with over-geared players as a slightly under-geared one. That didn't happen on burn.

I also ran a dungeon the other night with a burn FM, both of us were Lvl 50 HM 3 with similar gear AP, I paid attention that time for a good comparison :)  Aggro pretty much switched back and fourth, while she was on cool down I'd be stealing it until my focus and crit was on a roll then I'd be keeping it.

I think people who think ice is carp are just doing ice wrong.

 

5 hours ago, Teffy said:

Only people that want to spam 1 button play ICe.Fire > Ice.

 

Actually more than one button if you want to keep freeze up it's a bit similar to keeping burn up plus knowing when to use extra dmg abilities at the right time. 

 

22 hours ago, HeiHua said:

Ice build has damage as long as the target remains in the cold snap area, but to land 2 skill on the enemy also takes time to hit it. It also is really focus hungry build, due to the 2 skill you are spamming, you have to use recover focus skills to keep up.

 

And @Rasky

You don't need cold snap. Cold snap is like an added extra sometimes, it's the icing ;)

Ice auto recovers focus, It's rare to run out of it, focus it pretty much up constantly on ice, especially when it's on a roll literally, it keeps refreshing itself and I can just keep going without a single pause :)

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There is no low on fire.Good burn build FM always will find party and atm outdps everything.Didn't seen so far icy FM to get agro on anything for more then 5 sec.In fact FM initial burst compared to other classes is low.Our somewhat burst is dual cast inferno crits but this have it's own downsides too.Burn build has steady dps without downsides.We don't relly on freezes,cold snap CD,focus regen.IT's much easier to maintain focus with burn then with ice.If you`re good you`re not lacking anything on burn build.

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5 hours ago, RetroByte said:

 

And @Rasky

You don't need cold snap. Cold snap is like an added extra sometimes, it's the icing ;)

Ice auto recovers focus, It's rare to run out of it, focus it pretty much up constantly on ice, especially when it's on a roll literally, it keeps refreshing itself and I can just keep going without a single pause :)

Not only that but the trick is also to time your coldsnap well once a fair number of ice rain is mid air..This way it ensures that the icerain hits for higher damage in coldsnap before target moves..

 

However,thing most of those who don't believe in frost FM think is that Frost FM is all about ice rain..Whoever thinks so must have never tried a real frost build then because,ice rain+cold snap combo is not but 1 combo out of 4-5 combos that Frost FMs do in their rotation.

They need to understand just when to use icerain and that comes by training.

 

I find frost build to need some skill and the more you concentrate with it,the better you do so it is really rewarding if you work harder and always had good potential for me.The more I train on my frost rotation,the better I do and the more I discover new techniques of using it.

That's why I personally like Frost.

4 hours ago, Teffy said:

There is no low on fire.Good burn build FM always will find party and atm outdps everything.Didn't seen so far icy FM to get agro on anything for more then 5 sec.In fact FM initial burst compared to other classes is low.Our somewhat burst is dual cast inferno crits but this have it's own downsides too.Burn build has steady dps without downsides.We don't relly on freezes,cold snap CD,focus regen.IT's much easier to maintain focus with burn then with ice.If you`re good you`re not lacking anything on burn build.

I find ice to take more training and skill so it might be a bit harder and harder means many people are more likely to do bad with it just like BM in pvp where a small amount of them are really pro while many of them really do bad and can't manage because,the class is hard..

Some builds are easier than others and some builds need training and to be mastered harder than others need and that doesn't mean the harder builds are bad..On contrast,most end up having more potential than the simple once because,they obligate one to train harder on their rotations.

 

A skilled frost FM with proper gear (and ofc closer to your gear level so it would be fair) will manage to steal aggro from you given that they have no lags or any external factors that would hinder them from doing their rotation properly. :)

 

Aggro sometimes stick to my FM..That I once did my frost armor twice vs profane jiangshi in necropolis and I still get aggro.. -__-

Note:I wasn't even concentrating on my rotation in that fight and was focusing more to survive using life drain from frost fury so I was going on a more defensive combo yet aggro sticks to me even after 2 "full duration" frost armors.

 

My AP isn't even that good..It is just 433 ap atm and back then it was lower...Now imagine if I had better AP.(Full BSH soulshield as well not even yeti nor anything new yet as I am staying with my BSH till i collect more pieces of new soulshields because,I don't like broken soulshield bonus and I do value crit)

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Not crapping on Ice btw if I made it look that way. Just made an opinion on gameplay. :P

 

But yea jaffar mate, you mentioned wanting a "hardcore pve fm" so I'm guessing you really want to min and max stuff. But to that end, unless you want or get people to look and record their combat logs, do it again at least 10 times, from more than 1 player, we can't really say which one is "better". We can only give you situational recommendations, "Fire is better cause of this", "Ice is better cause of that". Point is, they are both good and really not far off each other, whichever is higher, we won't know for sure unless we get some good and solid analytical data.

 

There is no end game that specs should be considered as something to decide on. Unless it's a personal thing like beating your personal record on a fight or something, choose a playstyle that you like. Just to assure you that both are viable, I think I've pretty much done every boss fight on both Ice and Fire, pretty much reign on aggro on both (if aggro is our basis on damage), I just switch depending on mood/type of execution I want. I suggested Fire as a "go to" spec to you cause half the time, I'm outside dungeons and Fire is more friendly on multiple targets.

 

If I were you, I'd be more wary of ping:

 

 

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20 minutes ago, FeistyFeets said:

So if ice rain+ cold snap isnt the main combo, what would a GOOD frost FM rotation build/rotation look like?> I am trying to become ONE with the ice! Help please?

I didn't say "Ice rain+cold snap isn't a main combo"..I said that its just 1 out of 4-5 combos that ice does..More like 4-5 ice main combos that we do depending on situation.

Ice rain is just 1 of them and cold snap is half the combo of icerain but doesn't hinder icerain itself,just reduces damage per sec from ice rain if enemy is not in coldsnap but you can still use the other half.

Once coldsnap is fully in CD,we do the other combos till it is out of CD and stop doing ice rain..Coldsnap can be done 3 times in a row before it goes in CD so if enemy gets out of it then we can simply cast another coldsnap to the area they moved to..However,it is always preferable to train on when to do the cold snap+ice rain combo and when not to.

 

This is how I personally Frost as FM:

 

 

Frost goes by the concept "If you want something,work for it"..The harder you try and the more you master your rotation,the better it becomes..Wooden dummies in mushins tower is an excellent place to do that every now and then.

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1 hour ago, Oxygen said:

I didn't say "Ice rain+cold snap isn't a main combo"..I said that its just 1 out of 4-5 combos that ice does..More like 4-5 ice main combos that we do depending on situation.

Ice rain is just 1 of them and cold snap is half the combo of icerain but doesn't hinder icerain itself,just reduces damage per sec from ice rain if enemy is not in coldsnap but you can still use the other half.

Once coldsnap is fully in CD,we do the other combos till it is out of CD and stop doing ice rain..Coldsnap can be done 3 times in a row before it goes in CD so if enemy gets out of it then we can simply cast another coldsnap to the area they moved to..However,it is always preferable to train on when to do the cold snap+ice rain combo and when not to.

 

This is how I personally Frost as FM:

 

 

Honestly I sometimes keep spamming ice rain even when cold snap stops because sometimes it'll just keep critting and I'm pumping out a crap load of 5-7 k hits and since ice rain comes in multiples I'm pumping out 15k and over per sec which is good for my under-geared FM. 

But its always situational and won't do that all the time.

 

My build is actually pretty much the same minus a difference here and there :)

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14 hours ago, RetroByte said:

Honestly I sometimes keep spamming ice rain even when cold snap stops because sometimes it'll just keep critting and I'm pumping out a crap load of 5-7 k hits and since ice rain comes in multiples I'm pumping out 15k and over per sec which is good for my under-geared FM. 

But its always situational and won't do that all the time.

 

My build is actually pretty much the same minus a difference here and there :)

lol when I am not really trying or focusing survival if I aggro boss,I end up doing RMB>>F>>F combo..I love this combo.

It has nice drain from frost fury yet it is fast and does fine damage and pew pew. XD

It really allows both options either to slack or not but to each its own advantages.

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While ice build can still do decent amount of dmg to your job in dungeon it is inferior to fire build in terms of dps. The reasons are simple

1) Both build uses RMB+LMB but only fire build have burn pernamently up to get extra burn dmg from HM LMB. Autodetonate dmg is lesser than burn extra dmg and can`t crit.

2) Ice skills that do extra damage against frozen target has lower coeficients than fire skills that do extra damage against burned target. Frost Fury 5.4 vs Fire Fury 7.5. Force Blast 9 vs Blazing Beam 10 (or dragonblaze 11).

3) Ice build do not ani-cancel during ice rain-cold snap combo. Even if you do 2 ice rains per second its dmg (total coef 14) is lesser than fire build`s ani cancel (total coef 15.5 for RMB+LMB+2)

4) Ice build uses fire skills for extra damage (inferno, meteor shower) but they don`t benefit from dragonfrost buff. With fire build these big skills gain extra damage from dragonblaze buff.

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17 minutes ago, Dlacik said:

While ice build can still do decent amount of dmg to your job in dungeon it is inferior to fire build in terms of dps. The reasons are simple

In terms of damage per attack* not dps..Frost makes up for that with missile speed/Attack speed.

 

1-Not every one has HM LMB..That could call for different measures on both builds because,frost can also apply burn using fire C and inferno.

 

2-Probably true but Frost fury is far more useful than fire fury,imo. (as a matter of fact,I noticed many people hate fire fury not sure why yet)..Frost fury has more overall usefulness because,it recovers focus and can drain as well if it is specced stage 3...Ofc,blazing beam would win vs frost impact.

 

3-Ice rain doesn't need to use the ani cancel breach in the game as it is already very fast,faster than fire RMB+LMB+2 combo which one can tell by even looking at both combos.

 

4-True but fire also uses some of frost skills for focus like ice tornado..I have tried both frost and fire but I find fire far more focus hungry while I almost never run out of focus on frost hence even faster non stop missile throwing...We rarely use the fire C for focus,its just there for the extra DOT damage which is nice.

You know that frost being able to use fire offensive skill is an advantage over fire,yep?

Because,fire can't do the same,you as fire can't use offensive skill of frost because,they depend on "other frost skills" except for RMB (that does very low damage on fire spec) and focus recovery ice tornado.

However,fire gets great defensive/support skills from frost like divine veil,frost sheath and frost armor but not offensive skills.

Just like how you use dragon blaze to enhance the fire skills,frost uses dragon frost to enhance their frost skills like icerain,RMB etc.

In short,Frost gains advantage from fire offensive skills while it is impossible for fire to do the same with frost except for the 2 skills I mentioned earlier which are not great  in fire compared to inferno and meteor.

 

I couldn't revise if the numbers and calculations you made up there are right or not because,I am lagging atm and game won't let me in.

However,I am going to assume you are right.

 

Conclusion:both has their own way but no one is inferior to the other..They both are FMs and they both do almost same damage and evidence is that you will find both stealing aggro from each other every now and then which indicates that their damage is pretty close to each other though they are almost same level of gear..That's how I see it at least.

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Oxygen said:

They both are FMs and they both do almost same damage and evidence is that you will find both stealing aggro from each other every now and then which indicates that their damage is pretty close to each other though they are almost same level of gear..That's how I see it at least.

I think this is pretty close to the truth.

Ice can deliver a lot (A LOT!) higher dps spikes, compared to burn.

However, when all 3 charges of cold snap are used, there is still pretty big gap, where the dps is pretty shitty. Of course, the one compensates for the other, but overall burn delivers more consistent damage, without big spikes, and overall seems to be more effective.

 

Of course, in terms of exact rotations, in both cases there is a lot what can be done wrong and would make the whole discussion pointless :)

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