Grimoir

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Zel   
1 hour ago, DomiSotto said:

Dear me, Zel, 400 AP in your post sounds like 'crap gear' and to me it is a subject of fevered dreams and no less fevered play to get this and that and the other thing. Those few times I actually managed to find 30 min to play 1 vs 1 arenas, I really loved it. It is a source of some annoyance to me that I cannot justify playing it because gear, soul, HM skills - I need all of it more than I need to puzzle out how to escape cc's by every melee class out there. And I have yet to see a Sin.

It's baseline, rather than crap. It's the AP you achieve by default if you only have an hour or two to play a day, or every other day. Crap is rocking Infernal in this patch and queing into Yeti which places you right smack dab onto the carry me express. Regardless, it's a shame you can only use the gear you earned through PvE to PvE even harder, that is it was a shame until this 6v6. Now at least you can put forth some of that time and effort into a new scenario, something other than blindly grinding gear forwards following the same cookie cutter build with the sole purpose of cutting 10 seconds off your clear time in the next instance. Should the new 6v6 end up being a legitimate grounds for stat experimentation and creating a separate PvP meta (One that isn't based entirely around Bait Tab into 100-0 Rinse Repeat and Bots+Hacking Summoners) then I can honestly say it'll be the one thing keeping me playing this game, and resubbing my Premium. The PvE right now in brainless and the Arenas are shallow, that's really it. Hopefulyl this wil breathe some life into this nightmare.

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I started playing this game basically coincidentally with the 'level a char to 45!' and so far was not able to catch up in gearing to 400 AP. I am not so much into PvE'ing even harder, as in keeping my head above water so I can continue with the story once the new Chapters are available.

 

I find that practically speaking, each day I can do the OwPvP if I get up early and one other thing, be that a few dailies or East Fleet or Nightshade or a Blackram Supply Dungeon  which is as far as I have managed to play on the dungeon ladder. I do not find what I do unenjoyable per se, but I do wish I was not so far behind, because then I would have a luxury to spend time playing PvP or trying other classes. Yes, I would have liked to spend more time on the game, and, no, I cannot.

 

I think it will not be until somewhere in high 400 when I feel that I can start mix in stuff that is not directly gear related. Though I do think I need to play arenas till I have 5K beans to open an HM skill.

 

6x6 is quite a tease, but it is a luxury that I cannot afford to even think about.

 

 

Edited by DomiSotto

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Lynstar   
15 minutes ago, DomiSotto said:

I started playing this game basically coincidentally with the 'level a char to 45!' and so far was not able to catch up in gearing to 400 AP. I am not so much into PvE'ing even harder, as in keeping my head above water so I can continue with the story once the new Chapters are available.

 

I find that practically speaking, each day I can do the OwPvP if I get up early and one other thing, be that a few dailies or East Fleet or Nightshade or a Blackram Supply Dungeon  which is as far as I have managed to play on the dungeon ladder. I do not find what I do unenjoyable per se, but I do wish I was not so far behind, because then I would have a luxury to spend time playing PvP or trying other classes. Yes, I would have liked to spend more time on the game, and, no, I cannot.

 

I think it will not be until somewhere in high 400 when I feel that I can start mix in stuff that is not directly gear related. Though I do think I need to play arenas till I have 5K beans to open an HM skill.

 

6x6 is quite a tease, but it is a luxury that I cannot afford to even think about.

 

 

this is lowkey where i wish there was an option to sort players for parties based on AP the most. a lot of dungeon requirements made by elitist players are simply stupid, but in this case it would make a lot more sense. this way, casual players struggling to get to 400AP would still be able to enjoy the content, since they would be playing with same-leveled people.

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KatHead   
6 hours ago, Zel said:

Being able to PvP with actual mechanics like Evade, Block,

Thats not mechanics, that is rng m8. Zero skill required. 

 

Gear in arena is a bad idea for a game that has expressed interest in esports. 

 

3 v 3 is currently the worst pvp mode in this game, and it sounds like 6 v 6 will trump it by a long shot. There is a reason why people derank in 3s / farm beans in 3s by afking, it is because it does not matter / it is irrelevant content. 

 

You never know though, maybe it will be fun. Will try it fo sho, I didnt have a problem with pvp gear in wow, so maybe this will be fine if it stays in 6 v 6 only. 

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Ginki   
36 minutes ago, Fuz said:

And yet again, way too soon.

at least they didn't announce it 2 days before it gets released. that's something. they've said that they want to catch up to latest Korean update as soon as possible(dunno why. don't ask me), so updates will come out fast. the same day that they announced Silverfrost update i said that we will get new update at the end of this month, and we'll get it. i say that around the end of the next month we will get another update

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Zel   
4 hours ago, KatHead said:

Thats not mechanics, that is rng m8. Zero skill required. 

 

Gear in arena is a bad idea for a game that has expressed interest in esports. 

 

3 v 3 is currently the worst pvp mode in this game, and it sounds like 6 v 6 will trump it by a long shot. There is a reason why people derank in 3s / farm beans in 3s by afking, it is because it does not matter / it is irrelevant content. 

 

You never know though, maybe it will be fun. Will try it fo sho, I didnt have a problem with pvp gear in wow, so maybe this will be fine if it stays in 6 v 6 only. 

It stops being RNG when it becomes a reliable constant, which you CAN currently do in OW PvP. Full Eva/Blk sets reliably shut down people without Acc.

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Hongmoon   
13 hours ago, Zel said:

B.) Some classes are just unkillable because they can outrun everything. The 6v6 fixes both those problems.

 

Have you even seen the map for it? It's not a square or round arena. It's not fixing those problems.

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sOFrOsTy   
13 hours ago, Zel said:

SWTOR is not BNS, and of course BnS isn't Aion. But we already know what the 6v6 will feel like in terms of doing and receiving damage because we have OW PvP. And it's not bad. In fact the only real issue with OW PvP is A.) Zergrush and B.) Some classes are just unkillable because they can outrun everything. The 6v6 fixes both those problems.

 

Really though, the current content is hardly gear dependent at all. It's the community that feels it is. You can dumpster the Yeti with 400AP teams as long as you know what you're doing, and the current AP cap for this patch is somewhere over 600 for the whales with most "hardcore" players hovering over 500. You've never needed the best gear in BnS, at any point in time. Everything is mechanics oriented, not DPS race oriented and that's fine. Sort of. It creates a really stale meta for PvE as a default though. And Arena well, that place is a joke anyways with real players not even existing until 2000+ and everything afterwards just being a contest to see whole can bait Tab first followed by 100-0 combos because everyone's stats are the same. Being able to PvP with actual mechanics like Evade, Block, Regen, Defense and stacked offensive stats is MUCH more indepth and rewarding that doing the same combo ad nauseum in the arena. To put it plainly, the Arena is shallow.

I agree with your PVE points, especially related to attack power. But, in PvP you're contradicting yourself. In a previous post you mentioned that alllowing players to use their gear will be more skilfull than equalized. However, the stats the gear add are not skill based at all. Evasion and block being the biggest culprit. These are mechanics that utilize RNG and I personally was hoping would be ratified in games like Tera and BNS where tab targeting isn't a thing. Having a person who is idle evading 50% of the opponent's attacks because he plays the game more hours a day is not increasing the skill cap nor the minimum skill needed to play PvP. It is only increasing the hours required. Even though I don't like 100-0 combos or just how many CCs are available to each class in PvP, at least you can make decisions that change the out come. Having a stat that causes you to evade a % of attacks because of the gear you're wearing is not skill based. This is why BNS has equalized stats in arena so people can take it seriously. Granted, balancing needs to be achieved, but losing to someone with 0 reflexes, poor decision making, and poor micromanagement because they don't have a full time job and I do, is not my idea of fun or skill based.

Edited by sOFrOsTy

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Shorsh   

6v6 is like capture the flag only pvping will NOT win you the game unless you beat your opponent into submission like in Tera Fraywind canyon.
You must capture points even if you do not pvp if you are organized you can come out on top.
But most people in 6v6 will be premades that are top tier in pvp and with decent gear ^_^

 

I'm excited about this tbh.

 

We're getting the 6v6 without hell island which brought a bopoe that has crit defense on, much logic.

wear your lvl 45 moonwater bopae

Edited by Shorsh

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Slyce   
4 hours ago, Shorsh said:

wear your lvl 45 moonwater bopae

Or wear Yeti and stack crit def on it.

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Zel   
6 hours ago, sOFrOsTy said:

I agree with your PVE points, especially related to attack power. But, in PvP you're contradicting yourself. In a previous post you mentioned that alllowing players to use their gear will be more skilfull than equalized. However, the stats the gear add are not skill based at all. Evasion and block being the biggest culprit. These are mechanics that utilize RNG and I personally was hoping would be ratified in games like Tera and BNS where tab targeting isn't a thing. Having a person who is idle evading 50% of the opponent's attacks because he plays the game more hours a day is not increasing the skill cap nor the minimum skill needed to play PvP. It is only increasing the hours required. Even though I don't like 100-0 combos or just how many CCs are available to each class in PvP, at least you can make decisions that change the out come. Having a stat that causes you to evade a % of attacks because of the gear you're wearing is not skill based. This is why BNS has equalized stats in arena so people can take it seriously. Granted, balancing needs to be achieved, but losing to someone with 0 reflexes, poor decision making, and poor micromanagement because they don't have a full time job and I do, is not my idea of fun or skill based.

There's a point at which RNG based stats become reliable. Remember this is a 6v6, not a 1v1. In a 1v1 having a stat imbalance that default wins a game for 1 person is an issue, one that Aion basically waded through it's entire lifespan and kind of ignored (Although you could get a competitively viable PvP set in less than 3 days post 2.0) but it's entirely less likely that 5 other people also get shut out by a singular stat stack. Having equalized stats in a 1v1 is... well I can see why they did it. Not that I agree with every class being built the same because not every class functions the same nor performs the same when understated, but if everyone has equal stats in a 6v6, then it basically just becomes a game of "Everybody Focus X player" because you have no defensive stats. There's no out. You pop your Tab and unless you're a class that gains Invuln from it you die a fraction of a second later because there's 6 people hitting you, skill, reflexes, decision making and micro be damned. While equalized stats makes a 1v1 more "competitive" (Laugh) it's a detriment to a 6v6 scenario simply because of how this games combat was designed, which if you look at the current Arena 1v1 Meta, is based entirely around Bait Tab -> 100-0. That's not even being good at PvP, that's being good at a format which is why a lot of people think the Arena is a joke and just a place to get free Zen beans. If NCsoft actually wants to Esportify this game they've got a lot of fix.

 

In any case, there are those people that want to have their time and effort in the game be rewarded in a PvP scenario. There's also people who want everything equal regardless of time and effort. For the former we have this 6v6 (Which is more PvE anyways) and for the latter we have the 1v1/3v3's. There's content enough for everyone. Realistically speaking though, gear will only be a deciding factor in like, 5% of the matches in the 6v6 in all likelihood considering how it plays. Group Composition, Teamplay and Individual skill will be the big winners there. Expect to see a LOT of Dest/Smn/BD/KFM/FM groups.

Edited by Zel

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Gratus   
21 minutes ago, Zel said:

There's a point at which RNG based stats become reliable. Remember this is a 6v6, not a 1v1. In a 1v1 having a stat imbalance that default wins a game for 1 person is an issue, one that Aion basically waded through it's entire lifespan and kind of ignored (Although you could get a competitively viable PvP set in less than 3 days post 2.0) but it's entirely less likely that 5 other people also get shut out by a singular stat stack. Having equalized stats in a 1v1 is... well I can see why they did it. Not that I agree with every class being built the same because not every class functions the same nor performs the same when understated, but if everyone has equal stats in a 6v6, then it basically just becomes a game of "Everybody Focus X player" because you have no defensive stats. There's no out. You pop your Tab and unless you're a class that gains Invuln from it you die a fraction of a second later because there's 6 people hitting you, skill, reflexes, decision making and micro be damned. While equalized stats makes a 1v1 more "competitive" (Laugh) it's a detriment to a 6v6 scenario simply because of how this games combat was designed, which if you look at the current Arena 1v1 Meta, is based entirely around Bait Tab -> 100-0. That's not even being good at PvP, that's being good at a format which is why a lot of people think the Arena is a joke and just a place to get free Zen beans. If NCsoft actually wants to Esportify this game they've got a lot of fix.

RNG stats limit your ability to outplay opponents. You concluded that by forcing your opponent to do this and that and then tech chase in the end and you can finish them? Oh, too bad, they blocked and you lost. Sure, you can play around it, but the required skill cap between players is way too unrealistic for that at actual high level play. It's not limited to 1v1 either. There are no taunt mechanics or other ways for tanks to be a thing.

 

There's a reason why competitive MOBAs (5v5) strive to move out from RNG stats, and even if they retain stats like crit they're changed to work differently (i.e. not real RNG). I mean, just think what it would be like if you had to toss a coin every time you wanted to make a move in chess.

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Zel   
7 minutes ago, Gratus said:

RNG stats limit your ability to outplay opponents. You concluded that by forcing your opponent to do this and that and then tech chase in the end and you can finish them? Oh, too bad, they blocked and you lost. Sure, you can play around it, but the required skill cap between players is way too unrealistic for that at actual high level play. It's not limited to 1v1 either. There are no taunt mechanics or other ways for tanks to be a thing.

 

There's a reason why competitive MOBAs (5v5) strive to move out from RNG stats, and even if they retain stats like crit they're changed to work differently (i.e. not real RNG). I mean, just think what it would be like if you had to toss a coin every time you wanted to make a move in chess.

The only "competitive" MOBA that ignores RNG is HotS, and that's barely a game. PRNG is objectively worse than true RNG simply because you can "Prime" it in the context of MOBA's. Dota 2 is LOADED with RNG in virtually every aspect.

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Gratus   
9 minutes ago, Zel said:

The only "competitive" MOBA that ignores RNG is HotS, and that's barely a game. PRNG is objectively worse than true RNG simply because you can "Prime" it in the context of MOBA's. Dota 2 is LOADED with RNG in virtually every aspect.

"strive to move out". I quit ages ago, but until then they reduced the amount of existing RNG instead of increasing it.

 

I was expecting a reply on the actual point in the quote, but okay. Agree to disagree (uff).

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Zel   
6 minutes ago, Gratus said:

"strive to move out". I quit ages ago, but until then they reduced the amount of existing RNG instead of increasing it.

 

I was expecting a reply on the actual point in the quote, but okay. Agree to disagree (uff).

Dota just traded most true RNG for PRNG, and then changed a few thing regarding uphill miss chance. I mean look at all this.

 

http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Pseudo-random_distribution

http://dota2.gamepedia.com/True_random_distribution

 

In fact they added more RNG in the latest patches with items like Solar Crest and rebalances on skills.

 

As to replying to the "actual point", meh. PvP is already limited enough as it is becasue of the way it was designed. Every class plays the same game against one another. You shuffle around a bit until you can stunlock your opponent and you go ham on them. That's the only win condition. I guess running away until the timer hits is another one but realistically the goal of every class if possible is to force a remove shock and then 100-0 them in a continual stunlock until death. And that's boring as hell. I openly welcome ANYTHING that jumps in the middle of that 100-0 rotation and says "No more, this is stupid" drops the combo and allows you to counterplay. And if the tradeoff is that I can't 100-0 anyone myself anymore then all the better. I'm a dirty BD player. I run in, I bait you CD's, I combo you (100-0 if allowed) and then I run away until ALL my CD's are back up because my skillset dictates that this is my optimal play. It's boring. It's repetitive. And it works against EVERY. SINGLE. CLASS. And if I don't play this way I'm the one who get's 100-0 combo'd back in my face.

 

I guess the core of my point is this. For most classes you only need to outplay your opponent once, and because of the way the game is designed you win. RNG stats may limit your ability to outplay your opponent in some cases, but BnS PvP is a one mistake GG. There's nothing more limiting than what's already in place.

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Didn't see any hints of there being a continuation to Act IV. I'm disappoint.

 

Unless new Heroic dungeons introduces new BiS bopae/soul shields that can be farmed from stages at least marginally more forgiving than Avalanche Den or Awakened Necropolis, I don't really care for this update because I don't care a whole lot for Tower, much less for PvP.

Edited by Tsuchiryu

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AttacKat   
On 4/12/2016 at 10:55 AM, Grimoir said:

Honestly i can keep up with the upgrading but...the amount of materials needed is just too high. The transformation stone amount is fine but like 200+ venom darts  / moonstones its just too damn high lol

You see, it is a catch 22. If we were getting normal patches like all other regions, then you will have tons of options to farm these items. But since we are getting patches in *patches*, we are more limited in term of available options to farm the necessary items. The quick patch releases should actually help with this limited resource issue.

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24 minutes ago, AttacKat said:

You see, it is a catch 22. If we were getting normal patches like all other regions, then you will have tons of options to farm these items. But since we are getting patches in *patches*, we are more limited in term of available options to farm the necessary items. The quick patch releases should actually help with this limited resource issue.

Item [X] is scarce, price and demand are high.

Item [X] is put in a gamble event which offers unlimited attempts for money: it's called "marketing strategy".

Rumbling archeum sapling anyone?

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