This game is P2W crap. Stop spending money on NCSoft's greed

[Fatalito]

Well, people do have different definitions of what pay to win is. Some claim that anything that would help you progress in game and can be bought from cash shop or farmed in game, constitutes p2w if obtained from said shop. The more conservative minds would want to remove anything not cosmetic from the shop, and the really heavy minded would remove the shop altogether and keep everything up for earning in game.

 

The other mindset, which is also the one I am at, is that p2w happens only when the shop sells something that is more powerful than whatever can be earned in game. This practice clearly puts free to play users at a disadvantage in a competition based game, or when being chosen for pve parties. Since as we know, people will want to run their dungeons with the most powerful and skilled people they can find, in the shortest time possible.

 

Now what I also DO see often from people in this kind of argument, is in the forcing of THEIR opinion into someone else's throats. Which is not a nice thing to have but we all should get used to it because it will always happen. So the rest of us should come with a full package of patience. :3

 

There's also another matter here. Skill shouldn't be mixed with paying or not. We don't know the circumstances in which any other player got their gear. While it's common to see a player who bought himself into gear and doesn't know how to fully use it, there's also the matter of luck. Say, some lucky guy got carried through a dungeon by either randoms or friends once or twice and managed to get his hands on a rare item. Based on the first view I posted, this guy fully deserves the item. But another guy who has farmed relentlessly and knows the ins and outs of the dungeon, was so out of luck that he decided to give up the long farm and pay for that one item. Also based on the first view I posted, this guy does not deserve the item. Still. Who's more skilled here? I know this small analogy, if so can be called, may have it's flaws, but it's what I think at the moment. Also, I'm hungry and cant start thinking weird thoughts. :P

[Immortal Technique]

8 minutes ago, Tsuchiryu said:

Not as long as there are ways to get stuff without paying, which still is the case with the emblems. Dailies for the emblems are still there.

 

But whatever, keep on missing that point. Won't make you any less wrong on the matter.

You're missing the point too. Obviously it's not a game where you MUST pay to progress, but the fact that you can pay to progress still makes it pay 2 win whether you want to deny that blatant truth or not.

[Tsuchiryu]

Just now, Immortal Technique said:

but the fact that you can pay to progress still makes it pay 2 win whether you want to deny that blatant truth or not.

No, it does not. It's not a truth, it's just your horribly biased opinion.

 

And yes, there is such a thing as wrong/uninformed opinions, which is what I think yours is in this case.

[Immortal Technique]

This must be some people's first mmo if they think this game has no "pay to win" injected into it. Almost everything about this game involves paying gold, whether that doesn't involve IRL cash or not, the option to pay IRL cash for mostly everything you need to progress; is there. Let's not forget that you have to pay IRL cash to even activate your account's mail to be able to send mail. 

[DomiSotto]

7 minutes ago, Immortal Technique said:

You're missing the point too. Obviously it's not a game where you MUST pay to progress, but the fact that you can pay to progress still makes it pay 2 win whether you want to deny that blatant truth or not.

Well, as long as you do not have that must. To be fair, the F2P model in this game is quite generous and have near zero push to sell a sub to you.  It's just does not feel like a fair criticism of the developer to say that paying customers are much ahead of the F2Ps.

 

From what I see in this game, the players who prosper are those who have the most time and achieve high efficiency through knowledge and contacts with other players.

[Naekuh]

16 minutes ago, Immortal Technique said:

You're missing the point too. Obviously it's not a game where you MUST pay to progress, but the fact that you can pay to progress still makes it pay 2 win whether you want to deny that blatant truth or not.

you do not need to spend a single dollar in this game to get from start to finish.

What part of that do you NOT understand?  

 

A full grinded lvl50 char is identical to a fully funded lvl50 char, and in no way has an advantage or "Win" aspect of it.  

What part of that do you NOT understand again?  

 

Pay2Win means exactly that.. your paying money to WIN against people who didn't.  

Nothing in this game forces you to use the cash shop, nothing in the cash shop will give u an advantage over another player. 

 

 

[Tsuchiryu]

11 minutes ago, Immortal Technique said:

This must be some people's first mmo if they think this game has no "pay to win" injected into it.

As far as I'm concerned, wrong again. Nothing blatantly P2W with this game, except maybe for premium membership, which doesn't seem to be worth it anymore, from what I see others say.

 

And if ANYTHING that can be paid in RL cash to be acquired ONLY by paying RL cash, THEN it can be considered P2W. Otherwise, it doesn't qualify. Only one that I think still qualifies is premium membership... and even that is muddied a bit lately by two reasons: 1) not being really that huge an advantage nor necessary/worth it these days and 2) currency exchange, which still isn't P2W since you can always grind more gold with whatever free time you have.

 

That's the definition of P2W I stand by and, frankly, none of the arguments I've seen others make against it have ever been convincing enough to me, so I still stick to it.

 

Honestly, half the time I see people calling something P2W in a game, it tends to be out of spite for a company's practices. Understandable. Still, it rarely is because it actually IS P2W.

11 minutes ago, Immortal Technique said:

 Let's not forget that you have to pay IRL cash to even activate your account's mail to be able to send mail. 

Still not P2W either, just NCsoft being stupid in how they limit bots' actions by limiting ALL players' actions instead of just bots. I've gone over on other occasions on how much I hate these types of practices. Mail is not even really necessary if you don't have alts and you can work around not having mail with marketplace anyway.

[spongemike]

P2w is when a cash user have an overall strong advantage such as items only in the cash shop or they get can a super high level level weapon or items that give them an advantage. Trust me there are games where if you don't pay you will never progress. Like in beta there is a gem that gives you boost attack power and hp regen on crt.  Now that's p2w.

[Immortal Technique]

16 minutes ago, Tsuchiryu said:

No, it does not. It's not a truth, it's just your horribly biased opinion.

 

And yes, there is such a thing as wrong/uninformed opinions, which is what I think yours is in this case.

That is your opinion and psychological projections because clearly you're the one with the biased opinion. You haven't admitted the fact that this game is pay to win by choice.

 

Definition of choice:  the act of choosing : the act of picking or deciding between two or more possibilities.

 

You're sticking to one claim; "It's not pay to win."

 

Now, let's look at the definition of 'Pay to win.' 

 

Pay to win : 

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

"Dude, you've spent like 400 bucks on this game so you can beat everyone who hasn't spent any money. Pay-to-win noob!"

 

Now I rest my case. Have a nice night. :)

 

 

[Tsuchiryu]

@Immortal Technique

3 minutes ago, spongemike said:

P2w is when a cash user have an overall strong advantage such as items only in the cash shop or they get can a super high level level weapon or items that give them an advantage.

See that underlined part of the quote? THAT is the critical detail your definition is missing for me to agree with it.

 

Again, go on missing that point. Or rather, don't. You're wasting your time now, so I suggest you to cut it out right there.

 

[Naekuh]

7 minutes ago, Immortal Technique said:

That is your opinion and psychological projections because clearly you're the one with the biased opinion. You haven't admitted the fact that this game is pay to win by choice.

 

Psychological projections?  

No my psychological projections are your just jealous at people who can afford to drop money on this game while you cant.  

 

If someone has 400 dollars in disposable income, good for them.  Hell im sort of jealous that someone can afford to spend 400 dollars on a game, because if i had 400 dollars i would probably buy a larger SSD for my PC.  

 

But will i rant and complain about them?  No.

Are they paying 2 win against me?  No..  because i can get wherever there character is at if im given a value "time". 

 

Sure at start they will be OP as hell while im weak, but in 1 or 2 yrs when i catch up, will they have any advantage over me?  

No... 

 

So again, go ahead and complain all you want at the rich people because they have something called a life, and need to do something else besides grinding the game to enjoy the content of the game.  

 

 

[Fatalito]

My question is, where is that definition from?

 

Still from my standpoint, all we have is opinions. Even those I agree with are still opinions, unless there comes eventually a truly official definition of what exactly P2W is.

 

But on the other hand, and as opinions go, I'm not going to try and sway someone else with my opinion. I just let it be known, take it or leave it. If someone thinks my opinion is wrong, I'm open to be presented with fair proof to change it. If the proof is not enough for me, then I won't change. If I'm really proven wrong, then I accept it and move on with new knowledge. So far in this thread, my view hasn't changed about p2w, referred to in my previous post.

[Tsuchiryu]

I edited this in an earlier post, but I think it bears repeating in more detail so others don't miss: half the time (figure of speech, I honestly think it's more often than that) people complain about something being P2W in a game, it's generally out of spite for a company's practices with a game. Since some of these practices can be legitimately bad, it's understandable. Other times, it's general salt... or just jealousy. Sure, whatever, latter is also plausible, let's face it.

 

But, really, when you get down to it, it's just people being the above. It rarely is about the game ACTUALLY being P2W. The 'arguments' for this game being P2W I've seen here so far are only reinforcing that belief of mine. They also don't change MY view on what's really P2W, so I'm essentially on the same boat as @Fatalito.

[VRock]

the people whinnying about pirate tokes being in cash-shop and calling that P2W, they are just jealous because don't have money to buy that. 

If you don't want buy that, fine go grind alone or change the weapon path! New weapon path don't need pirate tokes, which btw is OLD CONTENT! 

[Naekuh]

6 minutes ago, Fatalito said:

My question is, where is that definition from?

 

Still from my standpoint, all we have is opinions. Even those I agree with are still opinions, unless there comes eventually a truly official definition of what exactly P2W is.

 

they say a picture expresses 1000 words..

 

under the assumption the free user can never get the same tank as the paying user.  

[Tsuchiryu]

2 minutes ago, VRock said:

If you don't want buy that, fine go grind alone or change the weapon path! New weapon path don't need pirate tokes, which btw is OLD CONTENT! 

Well, that goes into the issue of new path being worse than old one for various reasons, the most noteworthy one being the randomization of gem slots. That's a can of worms on its own. It's less of an issue of P2W and more of an issue of horrible game mechanics being in place for no real reason.

[Fatalito]

5 minutes ago, Naekuh said:

 

they say a picture expresses 1000 words..

 

under the assumption the free user can never get the same tank as the paying user.  

inb4 the free tank is actually loaded XD *runs*

[DomiSotto]

4 minutes ago, VRock said:

the people whinnying about pirate tokes being in cash-shop and calling that P2W, they are just jealous because don't have money to buy that. 

If you don't want buy that, fine go grind alone or change the weapon path! New weapon path don't need pirate tokes, which btw is OLD CONTENT!

Accessories, however, do, and remained relevant to the current path. No alternative leg was provided for 6/7 pieces of gear, only for the weapon. But it does not make the game P2W, only makes the life that much harder for a new solo player.

[Bezerko]

6 hours ago, Zachariasz said:

Seems like you failed, pastry troll. Next time come up with smth what actually makes sense.

lol @ pastry troll

Now I have images of a little green guy living under a doughnut.

 

Back to topic, I feel p2w isn't as black and white as so many make it out to be.  To me, there are 50 shades of gray when it comes to p2w.  Mild p2w would be what some call pay to progress.  Extreme p2w would be buying that exclusive cash shop weapon with a bajillion stats.  In the end, I feel any advantage acquired by using real money is some degree of p2w.  Whether that advantage is cutting down grind times on something that can be acquired via in game means or that super ultra powerful armor in the cash shop.

 

But I'm sure we call all agree to disagree on that point.

[Fatalito]

3 minutes ago, Bezerko said:

lol @ pastry troll

Now I have images of a little green guy living under a doughnut.

 

Back to topic, I feel p2w isn't as black and white as so many make it out to be.  To me, there are 50 shades of gray when it comes to p2w.  Mild p2w would be what some call pay to progress.  Extreme p2w would be buying that exclusive cash shop weapon with a bajillion stats.  In the end, I feel any advantage acquired by using real money is some degree of p2w.  Whether that advantage is cutting down grind times on something that can be acquired via in game means or that super ultra powerful armor in the cash shop.

 

But I'm sure we call all agree to disagree on that point.

So long as the opinion is presented in a good and constructive manner, even those who don't agree will (or should, by all damns) show respect to it. :)

[DomiSotto]

I just came of 2 year sub in another MMO. There, there were multiple incentives to pay a sub. You cannot reach max level. You cannot hold over a tiny limit of your earnings. You cannot equip end-game gear. You cannot do weeklies and dailies because your runs per week are capped at 5 PvP matches and you cannot run purple dungeons. There are more of the less obvious restrictions, but they are there every step you take, to the point when not paying sub is really not an option. And even paying sub, as a complete noob who never played group content, it took me 6 months to get to cap and I was crazy undergeared (this will not be true now in that game).

 

In BnS? The mail between the alts was the only thing I felt I had to pay for. All the rest is simply not worth spending your money on. It's way, way, way more advantageous to build a playgroup for content grind than to pay money.

 

I can't convince you that it's not crap, but honestly, it's a great deal imo, with you getting oodles more than you have paid for.

[JayP]

4 hours ago, Immortal Technique said:

You can buy lvl 50 materials like Silverfrost Transformation Stones, Gemstones, etc. Of course they'll have to do content as well but to get into that content through the means of paying IRL cash is still paying to win... 

Huh? you can't buy those things at all.

[Fatalito]

4 minutes ago, JayP said:

Huh? you can't buy those things at all.

You can buy them through player marketplace with gold. You can buy gold with ncoin which you buy with cash. So indirectly, you can buy them with cash, albeit very expensive.

[spongemike]

I hope people do realize that if the cash ship only sells cosmetic items and nothing else IE no dragon pounch for expand storage, no class specific keys for lock boxes, no crafting materials, no field repair tools, no buff foods. They wouldn't be making as much profit as they like and thus, there will be less updates, less bug fix or slower new content out.

[Fufia]