Shirasaya

HM skills Logic

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Lets be real, what crackhead came up with the idea to have crucial skills be farmed on a PvE RNGeezus dungeons?

Yes the hardcore pvp people will spend hours on end to get those in order to stay relevant.

Yes the hardcore pve only guys farm it obviously since they have nothing else to do and love that kind of stuff.

 

For the average player this is bullshit.

I dont say  everything should be on a silver tablet since this is an mmo and its supposed to be grindy.

But when we talk about competitive pvp, i dont think you should gimmick more than half the people playing this game.

A lot of people like pvp but simply dont have the time or will to farm a secret technique by running a dungeon 900 times.

And while the usual whiteknights are telling every casual player to fck off everytime they complain about something , i can only witness the ever declining amount of players playing the game.

 

If you deny that fact than your simply ignorant.

The amount of times you would literally have to wait for queues or queue into the same person over and over again is crazy.

 

Maybe im just retarded and am simply not suited for this game.

I come from Sc2, Quake, Lol background, my experience in mmos is limited to Guildwars 1.

 

In Guildwars 1:

You could make any character max level with standardized gear for pvp (only)

You had access t all skills, meaning you could simply pick up whatever class and learn all the skills and how it feels to play it.

Thus people were simply a lot more motivated to actually try other things and learn instead of sitting in Lobby and spamming :X = cancer

 

In BNS:

You have to level a character to 50 plus get HM levels.

You have to farm endless hours for a crucial skill based on RNG.

 

So yes, i get it, its grind heavy game, but is this really necessary?

 

 

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Rhinala   

 I totally agree with you.

I expected some sort of epic quest, that will test my combat ability and have some puzzles that will mentally test my character. I was expected something that will give me an insight about master hong. what I've seen was another soulstone, time and money sink, one that need the favor of the RNG gods.

Edited by Rhinala

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Audabon   

Even though there's more than 1 way to obtain HM skills,  theres not a decent option.

 

either grind gold, buy gold, or grind achieves+pages.

 

unless youre with friends in the party IF it drops its still big gold spent

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im fairly certain there would be a lot more competition around the scene if pvp only would be easier toaccess

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Netson   
3 hours ago, Shirasaya said:

Lets be real, what crackhead came up with the idea to have crucial skills be farmed on a PvE RNGeezus dungeons?

Yes the hardcore pvp people will spend hours on end to get those in order to stay relevant.

Yes the hardcore pve only guys farm it obviously since they have nothing else to do and love that kind of stuff.

 

For the average player this is bullshit.

I dont say  everything should be on a silver tablet since this is an mmo and its supposed to be grindy.

But when we talk about competitive pvp, i dont think you should gimmick more than half the people playing this game.

A lot of people like pvp but simply dont have the time or will to farm a secret technique by running a dungeon 900 times.

And while the usual whiteknights are telling every casual player to fck off everytime they complain about something , i can only witness the ever declining amount of players playing the game.

 

If you deny that fact than your simply ignorant.

The amount of times you would literally have to wait for queues or queue into the same person over and over again is crazy.

 

Maybe im just retarded and am simply not suited for this game.

I come from Sc2, Quake, Lol background, my experience in mmos is limited to Guildwars 1.

 

In Guildwars 1:

You could make any character max level with standardized gear for pvp (only)

You had access t all skills, meaning you could simply pick up whatever class and learn all the skills and how it feels to play it.

Thus people were simply a lot more motivated to actually try other things and learn instead of sitting in Lobby and spamming :X = cancer

 

In BNS:

You have to level a character to 50 plus get HM levels.

You have to farm endless hours for a crucial skill based on RNG.

 

So yes, i get it, its grind heavy game, but is this really necessary?

 

 

i see u contradicting urself ALOT here if ure a PvPer all u need is dragon certificates since u should have ****ton zen beans turn them in soulstones and sell them...

u can also get 2 hm skills in achiev merchant

another is available in a clan u dont even need to grind it urself u can just bargain for gold or soulstones if u play pvp heavy

the other 2 well the dungeons came out and ure exactly asking what u said u didnt u wanted the skills in a silver platter.  so they came in purp lv50 DGs that even aren't the hardest ones in this content(since we got 2 missing if im not mystaken that are way harder than any)

also tell me isnt there other skills u can pick that are usefull to you in pvp?

like for example a skill that has no point in its tree but while u dont have x hm skill u could spec into it to get it stronger/usefull?

 

so far i think in 4hm skills and 2 of them can be obtained without that heavy grinding.

if u think this is grindy then try REAL MMORPG bns is an MMO(RPG) but its RPG elements are really small u dont know whats a real MMORPG bns is at best 25% MMORPG

while on bns i could get to endgame in 3 weeks watching story doing all sidequests etc(main char)/endgame gears(unchained not silverfrost) be4 silverfrost patch and we only had(i played since headstart so i had extra 3 days of play time)done like 2 months.

now go and try a real MMORPG thats grind/quest intensive and where u dont have a system that hands u pretty much everything in game for FREE. i can tell you that either you would play on them 24/7 or u would play on avg and never get to endgame.

i played many MMOs i know the dif from a real rpg and a like rpg mmo bns fits the second.

Shaiya

Perfect World International

Priston Tale

WoW

etc etc fit the first category. now go play  one of those of the first type that i mentioned and tell me if u have progressed faster there or here...

im 26yo i play since 2003 mmorpg games(already played 1player rpgs wich brought me to mmo's more specific to rpg types)

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PhiKing   

It's simple as this, if it's meant to be competitive PvP it DOESN'T make sense to lock HM skills and have characters with higher HM levels have a huge advantage. That's not competitive PvP, that's a mix of PvE and PvP.

 

For a game trying to gain attention in Esports, it simply doesn't make sense to have an arena system not based on skill, but based on whoever has the most skill points and HM skills unlocked. And no, you can not efficiently farm enough soul stones to buy your HM skills, and you shouldn't have to for an arena system that is supposed to be based on skill i.e a ladder system. 

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dmoe33   
2 hours ago, PhiKing said:

It's simple as this, if it's meant to be competitive PvP it DOESN'T make sense to lock HM skills and have characters with higher HM levels have a huge advantage. That's not competitive PvP, that's a mix of PvE and PvP.

 

For a game trying to gain attention in Esports, it simply doesn't make sense to have an arena system not based on skill, but based on whoever has the most skill points and HM skills unlocked. And no, you can not efficiently farm enough soul stones to buy your HM skills, and you shouldn't have to for an arena system that is supposed to be based on skill i.e a ladder system. 

Its based on skill for the most part HM skills are really just a boost. There are some which are extremely crucial that make or break some classes however with or without those skills some things will stay the same such as kfm 3rf and des ani cancel no matter what skills u have if u get into that ur dead. The pvp system is all over the place imo some classes make 1 mistake against em ur dead while others make tons of mistakes and ur fine, its really just a very difficult and unforgiving system. Ping is a huge factor in pvp which yea it is in any competitive scene but im mentioning it because everyone's ping is way higher then it should be cause of NC not giving a flying fk, they also made it very obvious thats really all their aiming for is to make this an esport they do not care about anything else. Proof? Rushed content poor optimization strange patch release orders not dealing with core issues such as bots and win trading using gameguard when its doing more harm then good. Overall NC doesnt care which they made it obvious they just want to make it an esport and nothing else matters to them. Also this isnt solely a pvp game it does have a competitive pvp scene which is great but ppl say its a pvp game: its not. Hm skills from vendors is nice but u still have to grind ur butt off for them which i really dont agree with grinding for 3 months to get a skill that i dont belive in although i understand its more of a long term thing but thats a little too much, its not grinding its more of controlled grinding if u will.

 

TLDR HM skills arnt everything but are very very helpful in arena, the grinding being somewhat reasonable in some cases but just plain stupid in some other cases

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Dreegan   

You know I had the same thought in the shower last night. xD Always seems to happen, I think of something, and you guys post about it. But I TOTALLY AGREE! If for one simple aspect.

 

A lot of things about this game hurt it's Internation eSports Viability. And this is a glaring one. In every other highly watched competitive game around the world, once you're in the game, you have access to ALL the things you need to do what you're supposed to do. Kill the enemy. The idea of Blade and Soul doubling as an MMO is a pretty sweet idea. Gives you some other things to do besides rage in the arena. But having your HM skills locked behind a Gold Wall, or leaving it up to RNGesus is not really forgivable.

 

And it doesn't matter whether or not those HM Skills are boosts (Like the Assassin's Counter HM Skills) or absolutely crucial for high-tier play (Lightning Draw for Blade Master) having no other way to get these skills but by PvEing your eyes out for competitive PvP content is absurd. The Zen Beans could be a great deal changer here. Because, to be completely fair, I have very little interest in the PvE in this game. It's not hard, it's not challenging, and not exactly exciting either. But I love PvP. To a massive amount.

 

So, let's say I just main one character, and get all that PvE up and get him all teched out finally for the current content (Minus the HM Levels because fuuuuuuck), what if I wanna try out say.... a Destroyer? Or a Blade Master? HOLY HELL do I have yet ANOTHER grind ahead of me. Have to catch up in levels, then upgrade my gear to continue to advance in the PvE so I'm current enough to grind out THOSE HM Skills, and because it's a new character, I HAVE to, since otherwise I'd be dumping even MORE gold to get the skills or grinding achievements AGAIN to get that character current. JUST to get a feel of what it's like to have a High-Tier character to see if I like it better than my previous one, because I FINALLY have all the tools at my disposal to make an informed decision on whether or not that class better suits my playstyle.

 

Can you see how that shit gets out of hand like WAY too *cricket*ing fast? It's bad enough the combat boils down to Tab-Fishing and then (In Korea lol) A macro'd combo that basically is an "Win" button, but how are the casuals supposed to get amped for spectating or enjoying the game when the wall is there preventing them from experience the eSports life first hand?

 

In DotA, League of Legends, CS, (Not so much Hearthstone, but it's there), StarCraft, Street Fighter, Tekken, etc etc all the tools are available to you ASAP (Exception is League but that's a lot of content and shit to learn lol, so it's kinda good that it's all spaced out but it also doesn't take a huge amount of time to work through that stuff). I could pick up a controller in Street Fighter V and be on par with Daigo immediately. I won't have the dexterity, knowledge, or other tertiary skills related to the game. But the GAME itself is as available to me as it is to him. I don't have to play 5000 Matches with Ryu to unlock his Shin Hadouken or any such nonesense.

 

Anyway, end of rant. Zen beans for HM Skills. Or something. Por favor.

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Ghayatea   

As hardcore PvP player theres nothing easier than farm up beans and make gold to buy the skillbooks or too braindead to connect the points by yourself? 

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Gratus   
1 hour ago, Ghayatea said:

As hardcore PvP player theres nothing easier than farm up beans and make gold to buy the skillbooks or too braindead to connect the points by yourself? 

You still need to run dungeons to get certificates, and some skills are not available via books. It's a horrible system and it's blatantly showing in KR.

Edited by Gratus

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Formus   

i actually like this. These skills are one of few useful goals you can aim for. And they give you advantage in arena, which is nice. Ppl who show some effort to get HM skills should have advantages over the ones who don't.

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PhiKing   
3 hours ago, Ghayatea said:

As hardcore PvP player theres nothing easier than farm up beans and make gold to buy the skillbooks or too braindead to connect the points by yourself? 

Do the math for me and tell me how many matches I'd need to get the skills please, and also account for the dropping soul stone prices too. Further, as a hardcore PvPer, you want it based on SKILL, not the amount of skills you've unlocked. Is it that hard to understand? If PvP is based on skill all things should be equal, simple as that. 

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Shuchin   

B&S is a hybrid between pure PvP and pure PvE, no denying that. But it's not that absurd for an esports type of game either.


Having PvE unlockable extra skills is not much different than having a PvE campaign within a Street Fighter like game, with extra playable characters (=skillsets) unlockable by a completed campaign. Or by a hidden Easter Egg.

 

The basic assumption, I think, is that any player devoted enough to want to compete in worlds would have an easy time farming the Hongmoon skills. If you are only after things like achieving Diamond rank I doubt having or not having some specific Hongmoon skills is going to cut the mustard for you. :P

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Neonian   

Shuchin got it right here. The prospect of dropping 500g on the new hongmoon books is daunting, but you just have to suck it up and make money. If you're good at arena, then you can make gold soulstone pouches with relative ease.

3 hours ago, PhiKing said:

Do the math for me and tell me how many matches I'd need to get the skills please, and also account for the dropping soul stone prices too. Further, as a hardcore PvPer, you want it based on SKILL, not the amount of skills you've unlocked. Is it that hard to understand? If PvP is based on skill all things should be equal, simple as that. 

The implication here is that a PvE grinder with hongmoon skills would be any good in arena.

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PatchKid   
1 hour ago, Neonian said:

Shuchin got it right here. The prospect of dropping 500g on the new hongmoon books is daunting, but you just have to suck it up and make money. If you're good at arena, then you can make gold soulstone pouches with relative ease.

This would be fine if you could simply purchase the soulstone pouches with zen beans only.  Unfortunately, they require a dragon certificate which can only be obtained via PvE.  Therefore, PvP arena players who focus 100% of their effort on PvP can not obtain gold since nothing sold with Zen Beans can be sold to other players.

 

The only solution for PvP-focused players is to spend $$ to buy gold, so they can then in turn buy the HM books from the AH.

 

Now that dragon certificates have been moved to the higher-end instances, it also requires you to advance your character sufficiently to "qualify" to enter the instance.  Even if you had people willing to do the instance for you (AFK like so many PvE people do in arena), then you'd still have to meet the minimum instance requirements.  Some of which require you to complete a quest chain just to enter the zone.

 

 

As a veteran MMO player, I'm fine with sucking up the PvE aspect and doing my quests to get there, but it does represent a clear flaw in the PvP design.  Arena players should be able to zone into the arena lobby, get max skills and all HM levels + abilities unlocked, then they can just play Arena all day long and spend their $$ on cosmetics.

Edited by PatchKid

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PhiKing   
4 hours ago, Shuchin said:

B&S is a hybrid between pure PvP and pure PvE, no denying that. But it's not that absurd for an esports type of game either.


Having PvE unlockable extra skills is not much different than having a PvE campaign within a Street Fighter like game, with extra playable characters (=skillsets) unlockable by a completed campaign. Or by a hidden Easter Egg.

 

The basic assumption, I think, is that any player devoted enough to want to compete in worlds would have an easy time farming the Hongmoon skills. If you are only after things like achieving Diamond rank I doubt having or not having some specific Hongmoon skills is going to cut the mustard for you. :P

There's a reason the top Korea streamers have all said BnS if P2W if you want to stay relevant in PvE or PvP without playing 8 hours a day. I've been in the 2400 elo and easily can stay around 2200, I don't spar and only do 1's. Even with 20k beans, I'd need to do all the purple dungeons to get small drag certificates and run through mushins. That would still only give me 4 certificates i.e 8k beans used. And if you don't understand this you don't get 20k beans by doing nothing. That's hours of grinding arena ASSUMING you win. I'm expected to grind PvP for 5+ hours, and then do dailies just to USE my rewards from PvP for another 2 hours, JUST to get my skills for PvP in ARENA not OPEN world?

 

To anyone saying that HM skills don't make a difference in competitive play, you're wrong. There are PvPers who either spend tons of cash, or play this game full time that have the ability to unlock HM skills and yes, they HAVE to do so to stay equal with other arena players. 

 

Yes, this game is a mix of PvE and PvP, but notice how everyone complains about being forced to PvP in a PvE setting? Well arena is different from open-world PvP it's intended to be separate from PvE aspects, otherwise why would they equalize gear? 

 

 

 

Edited by PhiKing

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Suna   

I think it is pretty good system because that motivate players play more their main character instead fotm rerolling classes what ever feel like strongest at current moment. 

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PhiKing   
17 minutes ago, Suna said:

I think it is pretty good system because that motivate players play more their main character instead fotm rerolling classes what ever feel like strongest at current moment. 

It's a great system: "play one character, if you find out you dislike your class, quit the game and don't make a new one since it's impossible to catch up without making BNS a full time job, or using money from your full-time job to buy your skills"

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Suna   
2 minutes ago, PhiKing said:

It's a great system: "play one character, if you find out you dislike your class, quit the game and don't make a new one since it's impossible to catch up without making BNS a full time job, or using money from your full-time job to buy your skills"

You can do well even with hm1 , many top players have proved that you dont need any hm skill to reach high rankings. those extra skillpoints are just extra, but if you suck at hm1 , you are not gonna raise much even if you are hm 10.  

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PhiKing   
6 minutes ago, Suna said:

You can do well even with hm1 , many top players have proved that you dont need any hm skill to reach high rankings. those extra skillpoints are just extra, but if you suck at hm1 , you are not gonna raise much even if you are hm 10.  

As I said before.... I've gotten 2420 with just HM 2. Doesn't mean it's balanced. When I'm fighting competitively, especially in an Arena based system, I want to win solely out of skill not because I have the bonus SP that gives me a handicap over someone else. And with HM skills, and the huge pools of XP they consist of, anyone who plays full time (Regardless of PvEr or PvPer) is going to have an advantage. 

 

If you have two people of similar skill levels and one has 5 SP advantage whose going to win? It does make a huge difference in higher  tier Arena matches. 

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Suna   
36 minutes ago, PhiKing said:

As I said before.... I've gotten 2420 with just HM 2. Doesn't mean it's balanced. When I'm fighting competitively, especially in an Arena based system, I want to win solely out of skill not because I have the bonus SP that gives me a handicap over someone else. And with HM skills, and the huge pools of XP they consist of, anyone who plays full time (Regardless of PvEr or PvPer) is going to have an advantage. 

 

If you have two people of similar skill levels and one has 5 SP advantage whose going to win? It does make a huge difference in higher  tier Arena matches. 

5 sp probably not make lot difference. Person who does the mistake will most likely lose that round regardless are you hm5 or hm 10. And about that cathing up, xp will always raise during new patches so it is easier catch up old levels. If you have ever played mmo games before, old content will always get nerfed and made easier to catch up. In korea you get like 2x more xp from the arena.

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PatchKid   
28 minutes ago, Suna said:

5 sp probably not make lot difference. Person who does the mistake will most likely lose that round regardless are you hm5 or hm 10. And about that cathing up, xp will always raise during new patches so it is easier catch up old levels. If you have ever played mmo games before, old content will always get nerfed and made easier to catch up. In korea you get like 2x more xp from the arena.

I don't play any variety of classes, but I can tell you that 5SP makes a huge difference for me on my KFM.  I imagine there are some classes that don't rely on having variety in their builds, but that 5SP would give me the ability to use many more skills that have very niche and useful value in PvP arena.

 

I'm in the low 2000s as KFM currently, with only level 47 HM2, but I suffer greatly when I have limited skill availability against good players, and it shows up often.  Don't enjoy the grind much, but I love the arena.  Unfortunately, I have to spend painful hours of PvE grinding to get the skills I need to be competitive.  The 1 (counter) HM book that requires PvE makes a massive difference in PvP.   The HM skill you get for Z (rising dragon) - yet to be released, but soon - will be a significant improvement to the ability!  These things require a lot of time and energy and PvE focus to obtain, and they make a very large difference (plus you need 2SP just to train the HM skills, which is why you need so many SP!!).

 

Not sure what your experience has been, but if you want to be competitive in this game, you will be required to PvE for leveling and at the very least spend a few hundred $$ to buy the gold so you can buy your skill books.

Edited by PatchKid

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What is considered P2W?  Because we can argue any game out there that was mentioned can be considered P2W. 

 

In WoW you have streamers selling ratings boosts for real money.  Also have streamers selling PvE carries for money.  Both of which are against Blizzard's ToS.

In LoL, same thing.  You can pay someone to carry you to a higher ELO with real money.

 Every mmo, every some mobas, you must PvE to level and stay relevant.  Why is that so hard to understand?

Yes the requirements for some of the HM skills is a bit heavy. But if you wish to obtain those skills to, as you say, stay relevant, you have to do what is asked for those skills.

 

A PvEr can say the same thing about PvP.  Why do they have an easier chance to get soulstones than a PvEr?  Obtaining zen beans is easier than farming the soulstone plains by far.

 

I love the Korean mmo model.  You have to do work to get things.  Its not like logging in every reset day, get your shines and be off to something else for the next 6 1/2 days.

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