HM skills Logic

[PhiKing]

1 minute ago, Aint Rabid said:

What is considered P2W?  Because we can argue any game out there that was mentioned can be considered P2W. 

 

In WoW you have streamers selling ratings boosts for real money.  Also have streamers selling PvE carries for money.  Both of which are against Blizzard's ToS.

In LoL, same thing.  You can pay someone to carry you to a higher ELO with real money.

 Every mmo, every some mobas, you must PvE to level and stay relevant.  Why is that so hard to understand?

Yes the requirements for some of the HM skills is a bit heavy. But if you wish to obtain those skills to, as you say, stay relevant, you have to do what is asked for those skills.

 

A PvEr can say the same thing about PvP.  Why do they have an easier chance to get soulstones than a PvEr?  Obtaining zen beans is easier than farming the soulstone plains by far.

 

I love the Korean mmo model.  You have to do work to get things.  Its not like logging in every reset day, get your shines and be off to something else for the next 6 1/2 days.

The Korean model right now you can currently buy almost all the items needed to upgrade your weapon (with the except of the weapon itself with cash, so I don't know what you're talking about. They've even put pirate emblems available to be purchased through cash, and you can directly buy as much gold with RL cash as you want in this game. 

 

The LoL and Wow model was an irrelevant example, there's a difference between what is against TOS and what's not. You can do the same in BNS but it's against the TOS i.e bannable. That can't be considered P2W because that's not a part of the games intention or design; and the game itself isn't getting money from that. 

 

Also, I already mentioned the soulstone thing and pointed out MANY people have complained about having to do a PvP thing to do a PvE thing. I've consistently agreed with those people, and this is the exact same situation but reversed: it doesn't make sense and doesn't fit. 

 

What I don't get is how you are completely avoiding the argument with "what is so hard to understand", but it's you who doesn't understand. The foundation of the argument is that arena is meant to be competitive, and if it's meant to be skill based then make it on skill. Not the amount of skills you have.  

[Aint Rabid]

It is still P2w if I can buy something with real money that is in game, No matter if it is against the ToS.  It still happens, but this is the 'which came first the chicken or the egg,' arguement....no one wins.

 

Ok many people have complained about it all over the world.  What is the response from NCSoft?  That is the part where you are failing to understand. 

 

Its just like the argument in wow the pvpers had about limited content release compared to pve.  PvPers said we want more or we will quit, we see how well that worked.  Why should a business change their bottom line for a few that dont want to take time to do something. 

 

Tbh, I could care less what you do, quit or do the dungeon grind, as I was told in game I'm irrelevant and a filthy casual.  But I am not complaining how the game is set out in front of me.  If I don't like something, I dont do it.  Not going to lose sleep, get tilted or anything over a game.

 

As to my not understand what you want, maybe you are right, I come and complain how hard a game is on the forums in hopes to have a easier time doing anything.  I don't understand,I am after all a fithy casual that has no problem running dungeons and doing arenas.  I am not hell bent to be the #1 best Blade and soul player.  You see where I am going?  We are all irrelevant in the big scheme of things.  I'm sure the board of directors sit in korea saying 'you know we shouldn't have HM skills tied to PvE cause its not fair for PVPers.'  They are only looking at one thing, the bottom line of how much money did I make, whether you say its P2W or not fair or anything on a forum, is inconsequential to someone laughing and trolling as he counts the profits.

 

Now how hard is it to understand that a forum topic about our scratched feelings and wasted time cause I have to do x to compete in y, is really silly cause you could be in a dungeon getting the required drops for the HM skills.  But it is your time, do with it what you want.

[Shadovvv]

Keep up the suffering everyone.

 

But seriously, you all do realize two HM skills are completely locked behind PvP and inaccessible to PvE? Honestly obtaining HM skills is no different than leveling up from 1-50 or gearing up, so why aren't you guys complaining about that?

[Dreegan]

6 hours ago, Shadovvv said:

 

Keep up the suffering everyone.

 

But seriously, you all do realize two HM skills are completely locked behind PvP and inaccessible to PvE? Honestly obtaining HM skills is no different than leveling up from 1-50 or gearing up, so why aren't you guys complaining about that?

I wouldn't go so far as to complain about the leveling, because that's how you learn your class abilities over time. It's a natural progression. Plenty of people complain about gearing up already (Especially if they have more than one character that they like) but since it doesn't exactly apply to Arena (Aside from qualifying for Dungeon runs to grind for your HM skills which is a bummer, for sure), it doesn't apply exactly.

[Ghayatea]

16 hours ago, PhiKing said:

Do the math for me and tell me how many matches I'd need to get the skills please, and also account for the dropping soul stone prices too. Further, as a hardcore PvPer, you want it based on SKILL, not the amount of skills you've unlocked. Is it that hard to understand? If PvP is based on skill all things should be equal, simple as that. 

End of season 1

 

ending of preseason

 

Didin`t had problems with gold to buy the HM skill. You can get 4 certificates a day which is 4 soulstone packs, and its around 50 to 80 gold a day. Theres no way in hell you cant afford them within a month. Where is a problem? lazyness hidden behind "balance of the game"?

[Tyranei]

11 hours ago, Suna said:

5 sp probably not make lot difference. Person who does the mistake will most likely lose that round regardless are you hm5 or hm 10. And about that cathing up, xp will always raise during new patches so it is easier catch up old levels. If you have ever played mmo games before, old content will always get nerfed and made easier to catch up. In korea you get like 2x more xp from the arena.

Woah, 5 skill points doesn't make a big difference?  What class are you playing?  Warlock?

 

Also, some of those new Skill Books that drop in the 4-mans are ridiculously good.  For example, BD's Vortex?  Yeah, resets air launcher cool-down when you parry with spin.  Tell me that's not a big difference.  By the way, that's another 2 skill points you need to put into that Hongmoon skill.

[KhaosThanathan]

The problem is: NCSoft has the claim for BnS to be esports-able. In esports, all that matters is skill and skill alone; there shall not be any differences. In BnS you have a lot of differences: may that be the skillpoints ('cause of different HM-levels) or the skills themselves. The PvP in BnS already isn't that much esports-able considering macros and that stupid counter-class-system, which was already a joke in Aion. Having further discriminations with different amounts of skill-points and different skills just takes the cake. Sure, BnS is a PvP/PvE-game. Still: NCSoft really failed with its claim.

[Suna]

6 hours ago, Tyranei said:

Woah, 5 skill points doesn't make a big difference?  What class are you playing?  Warlock?

 

Also, some of those new Skill Books that drop in the 4-mans are ridiculously good.  For example, BD's Vortex?  Yeah, resets air launcher cool-down when you parry with spin.  Tell me that's not a big difference.  By the way, that's another 2 skill points you need to put into that Hongmoon skill.

If you parry against BD, you have already done huge misstake. If you parry against BD you deserve lose regardless do they have hm skill or not.

 

I m not saying it does not make any difference. You guys should just stop crying. Be happy gear not matter in arena like in some bns versions. 

 

I m playing the class that is probably one of the most skill point depended character, but i m not gonna blame hm skills or skill points. I can agree that i played bad and try to improve myself next time. You guys always try find the problem from outside from yourselves "opponent is cheating, hacking, macroing, opponent play op class, i dont have hm skills, i m not max level, i had bad luck, ping is too high etc and list go on.."

[Tyranei]

2 hours ago, Suna said:

If you parry against BD, you have already done huge misstake. If you parry against BD you deserve lose regardless do they have hm skill or not.

 

I m not saying it does not make any difference. You guys should just stop crying. Be happy gear not matter in arena like in some bns versions. 

 

I m playing the class that is probably one of the most skill point depended character, but i m not gonna blame hm skills or skill points. I can agree that i played bad and try to improve myself next time. You guys always try find the problem from outside from yourselves "opponent is cheating, hacking, macroing, opponent play op class, i dont have hm skills, i m not max level, i had bad luck, ping is too high etc and list go on.."

Its almost like you're completely missing the point of standardized stats in Arena.  Its almost like people want NCSoft to follow that same logic for skill points and HM skills.  No ones trying to place the blame on anything.  Its called trying to equalize the playing field, which was the intention of NCSoft yet they failed hard.

I'm not a PvP-focused player.  I do both PvP and PvE in equal amounts (except when they activate Gameguard and make PvP unplayable for me, like now).  I like them both and I am personally fine with grinding to get skills and skill points.  However, I can easily agree with the reasons PvP-focused players want.  NCSoft designed arena to not be P2W/Grind2Win so players didn't have to invest months and months of playing in order to be competitive yet they failed that philosophy when they added skillbooks to BSH and then Avalanche Den and Awakened Necropolis.  Sure, you can get the BSH skillbook fairly easy if you grind achievement points, but I doubt that interests PvP-focused players at all.  And its not like those 4-man dungeons can be easily done with True Profane/Infernal.  Lets also not forget that those players are forced to do the heroic 6-mans now to even make any money to buy those skill book chapters.

 

The point is B&S is a PvP-focused game with a standardized arena that appeals to a larger audience that has no interest in PvE yet NCSoft has designed some skills that are essential to be accessible only through PvE along with the fact that those PvP-focused players can no longer easily convert the Zen Beans that they earn into money to upgrade the gear they need to participate in the dungeons to get the Dragon Certificates and Skill Books.

[Shuchin]

It comes to mind that increasing the bean to certificate ratio for higher rank pouches would help ameliorate the situation. Make that 4000 beans for plat and 8000 for diamond (with corresponding increase in SS) but still only one certificate, and the higher bean income would be accounted for.

[PatchKid]

1 hour ago, Shuchin said:

It comes to mind that increasing the bean to certificate ratio for higher rank pouches would help ameliorate the situation. Make that 4000 beans for plat and 8000 for diamond (with corresponding increase in SS) but still only one certificate, and the higher bean income would be accounted for.

This would only be a solution if the certificate was removed from the price of the pouch entirely, and also the doubling the cost makes zero sense.  You would never buy the platinum bags then.

 

30 for Gold = 2000

40 for Plat = 4000

50 for Diamond = 8000

 

People would just buy Gold pouches forever.  No reason to ever buy the higher priced bags since you get way more bang for your buck at the Gold pricing.  This idea is very flawed.

 

The soulstone market is how PVP players earn gold.  They don't want to farm instances.  That's the entire point of this thread.  Grinding instances is not PVP, and meaningless to Arena players.  It isn't currently optional because in order for you to make $$ in game, you have to get certificates at the very least, which means you have to grind instances since they are the only method of obtaining certificates.  Normally gold in game would mean nothing to a PVP player, but unfortunately you have to obtain skills that require you to either grind PVE or pay gold.

 

There are 2 solutions.

 

Best solution - Make certificates available in the Zen Bean shop for 2000 beans.

 

Another option - Increase the price of the soulstone pouches to 4000 zen beans, and remove the certificate from the price.  This option is worse because it punishes PVE players who do their daily quests for the soul stone reward, but aren't looking to spend significant time in the arena.

[Shuchin]

Since you wasted 9 lines on this oversight, let me draw attention to my above post:

 

Quote

(with corresponding increase in SS)

So of course the hypothetical platinum pouch would have 80 SS for 4000 beans and the diamond one 200 SS for 8000 beans. *sigh*

[PatchKid]

3 hours ago, Shuchin said:

Since you wasted 9 lines on this oversight, let me draw attention to my above post:

 

So of course the hypothetical platinum pouch would have 80 SS for 4000 beans and the diamond one 200 SS for 8000 beans. *sigh*

It still forces PvP players to go out and do PvE for no reason.  There's no way to make money in the arena except by getting soulstone pouches.  PVE players can earn their progression without ever stepping into the arena.  They can buy everything they want with gold earned in PVE.  They may even be able to buy the hongmoon skill from PvP with the achievement vendor (not actually sure), but the skill it provides has less value in PvE regardless while the skills found in PVE are incredibly powerful for PvP.

 

The only way to obtain these incredibly powerful skills is to grind PVE or get gold.  Getting gold means selling soulstones.  Selling soulstones means grinding PVE (even if you only have to get that one certificate).  At the end of the day, it's just a broken system to require PVE to be involved at all.

[PhiKing]

4 hours ago, PatchKid said:

It still forces PvP players to go out and do PvE for no reason.  There's no way to make money in the arena except by getting soulstone pouches.  PVE players can earn their progression without ever stepping into the arena.  They can buy everything they want with gold earned in PVE.  They may even be able to buy the hongmoon skill from PvP with the achievement vendor (not actually sure), but the skill it provides has less value in PvE regardless while the skills found in PVE are incredibly powerful for PvP.

 

The only way to obtain these incredibly powerful skills is to grind PVE or get gold.  Getting gold means selling soulstones.  Selling soulstones means grinding PVE (even if you only have to get that one certificate).  At the end of the day, it's just a broken system to require PVE to be involved at all.

Your suggestion would hurt PvP Players even more. You suggested to halve the amount of soulstones given for the same amount of zen beans. Both of your suggestions cut the minuscule gold income PvP players make in half. Not to mention, the only thing worth buying with zen beans in the PvP shop is soul stones, because NCSoft stupidly thinks 1.8k beans for one naryu silver is a good deal for PREMIUM members; what a joke. 

 

Also, look at how the value of soulstones is dropping too, with all the ridiculous events they throw out of no where, completely disrupting the game's economy. There will be no solution, because NCSoft will most likely not do anything. They don't fix bots in arena, and they don't fix skill-bugs in arena, so I don't expect them to offer any valuable changes. 

[PatchKid]

13 hours ago, PhiKing said:

Your suggestion would hurt PvP Players even more. You suggested to halve the amount of soulstones given for the same amount of zen beans. Both of your suggestions cut the minuscule gold income PvP players make in half. Not to mention, the only thing worth buying with zen beans in the PvP shop is soul stones, because NCSoft stupidly thinks 1.8k beans for one naryu silver is a good deal for PREMIUM members; what a joke. 

 

Also, look at how the value of soulstones is dropping too, with all the ridiculous events they throw out of no where, completely disrupting the game's economy. There will be no solution, because NCSoft will most likely not do anything. They don't fix bots in arena, and they don't fix skill-bugs in arena, so I don't expect them to offer any valuable changes. 

I think you're mistaking my suggestions somehow.  What I suggested was that they allow players to buy a certificate for zen beans.  That doesn't remove the ability to earn them through PVE.  You would no longer be required to do PVE to get certificates, and can just continue to grind arena.

 

The other suggestion of removing the certificate requirement was what I specifically stated was the worse option, but better than requiring every PvP player to do PVE.

[PhiKing]

3 hours ago, PatchKid said:

I think you're mistaking my suggestions somehow.  What I suggested was that they allow players to buy a certificate for zen beans.  That doesn't remove the ability to earn them through PVE.  You would no longer be required to do PVE to get certificates, and can just continue to grind arena.

 

The other suggestion of removing the certificate requirement was what I specifically stated was the worse option, but better than requiring every PvP player to do PVE.

You made two suggestions: Increase the cost of pouches to 4k, so certificates aren't required. Or buy certificates for 2k beans. Both of the those options have just double the price of beans for the same amount of soulstones. Unless you meant to also increase the amount of soulstones given with those changes by twofold. 

 

Either way, there needs to be something of more value from beans. Soulstones are going down in the market. They should make Naryu silvers cost 300 beans each, not 1.8k. You need Naryu silvers to unlock HM skills, I don't get why the only worthwhile thing they put in the arena shop is royal zen bean and soulstones... at least make it realistic for us to earn our skills through PvP. 

[PatchKid]

35 minutes ago, PhiKing said:

You made two suggestions: Increase the cost of pouches to 4k, so certificates aren't required. Or buy certificates for 2k beans. Both of the those options have just double the price of beans for the same amount of soulstones. Unless you meant to also increase the amount of soulstones given with those changes by twofold. 

 

Either way, there needs to be something of more value from beans. Soulstones are going down in the market. They should make Naryu silvers cost 300 beans each, not 1.8k. You need Naryu silvers to unlock HM skills, I don't get why the only worthwhile thing they put in the arena shop is royal zen bean and soulstones... at least make it realistic for us to earn our skills through PvP. 

You have terrible reading comprehension.  I'll break it down like you're a 5 year old.

 

Right now in game - Soulstone Pouches cost.... 2000 Zen Beans and 1 Certificate!

 

Suggestion - Allow that 1 Certificate to be purchased with Zen Beans!  Now you can do the following:

 

1. Run an instance in PvE and earn a Certificate.

2. Grind PVP arena and buy a Certificate.

 

Are you understanding yet?  The price did not change.  The price for the pouches is 100% exactly the same.  What I am suggesting is providing PVP ONLY PLAYERS a means of obtaining said certificate without having to do PVE.  Not removing it from PVE.  Just making it available from one other option.

 

My second suggestion was specifically noted as being the worst option of the two.  It does not punish PVP ONLY PLAYERS because they already have more Zen Beans than they can spend in a single day.  Some PvP arena heroes have 80000 (no joke) Zen Beans, and nothing worth buying.  It would punish PVE players who only do arena for zen beans so they can spend their certificates on soulstone pouches.

 

 

But I will go ahead and amend my suggestion to state that the absolute 100% best solution is to grant all levels and HM skills to players while in the arena.  Then they could eliminate the whole grind entirely.  If this game is going to move to being a e-sport, they can't have players gaining advantages (HM skills / skill points) because they spent more time doing dungeons or paid real $$ for gold so they could buy the skills from other players in-game.

[PhiKing]

2 hours ago, PatchKid said:

You have terrible reading comprehension.  I'll break it down like you're a 5 year old.

 

Right now in game - Soulstone Pouches cost.... 2000 Zen Beans and 1 Certificate!

 

Suggestion - Allow that 1 Certificate to be purchased with Zen Beans!  Now you can do the following:

 

1. Run an instance in PvE and earn a Certificate.

2. Grind PVP arena and buy a Certificate.

 

Are you understanding yet?  The price did not change.  The price for the pouches is 100% exactly the same.  What I am suggesting is providing PVP ONLY PLAYERS a means of obtaining said certificate without having to do PVE.  Not removing it from PVE.  Just making it available from one other option.

 

My second suggestion was specifically noted as being the worst option of the two.  It does not punish PVP ONLY PLAYERS because they already have more Zen Beans than they can spend in a single day.  Some PvP arena heroes have 80000 (no joke) Zen Beans, and nothing worth buying.  It would punish PVE players who only do arena for zen beans so they can spend their certificates on soulstone pouches.

 

 

But I will go ahead and amend my suggestion to state that the absolute 100% best solution is to grant all levels and HM skills to players while in the arena.  Then they could eliminate the whole grind entirely.  If this game is going to move to being a e-sport, they can't have players gaining advantages (HM skills / skill points) because they spent more time doing dungeons or paid real $$ for gold so they could buy the skills from other players in-game.

spent more time doing dungeons or paid real $$ for gold so they could buy the skills from other players in-game.

Don't belittle me telling me that I have terrible reading comprehension, when you can't even understand what you typed yourself. In fact, look above at how you criticized someone's suggestion because you overlooked the line where they explicitly said "with corresponding increase in soulstones". 

 

Let me quote YOU to make it easier for you to understand. 

 

"There are 2 solutions.

 Best solution - Make certificates available in the Zen Bean shop for 2000 beans. Another option - Increase the price of the soulstone pouches to 4000 zen beans, and remove the certificate from the price.  This option is worse because it punishes PVE players who do their daily quests for the soul stone reward, but aren't looking to spend significant time in the arena."

The BEST solution still requires us to spend 2K beans JUST for a dragon certificate. That means 2k beans for dragon certificate, 2k beans for soulstone pouch = 4k beans to achieve the soulstone pouch. Who in their right mind would want to do that. That's not a resolution to the problem, that's a simple luxury, that isn't even a luxury as much as it is a scam. 

 

Yes, I do agree there should be a PvP way of getting small dragon certificates, perhaps through 10 daily matches, but the issue, as you said, is the ability to attain HM skills. We can't rely on the value of soulstones because NCSoft always throws curve-balls which entirely disrupt the market. What they need to do is create an alternative path to gain HM skills through PvP. 

 

With your propose system, unless you have the ability to farm 30k beans a day, it's not going to earn you any realistic profit, you're actually going to be hurting your profit by purchasing those new certificates. 

 

And who has 80k beans when the cap is at 20k. I don't know anyone who wins 228 matches in a day in diamond, on a daily basis. 

[PatchKid]

Just now, PhiKing said:

The BEST solution still requires us to spend 2K beans JUST for a dragon certificate. That means 2k beans for dragon certificate, 2k beans for soulstone pouch = 4k beans to achieve the soulstone pouch. Who in their right mind would want to do that. That's not a resolution to the problem, that's a simple luxury, that isn't even a luxury as much as it is a scam. 

And who has 80k beans when the cap is at 20k. I don't know anyone who wins 228 matches in a day in diamond, on a daily basis. 

Why would you need to win 228 matches per day in diamond?  I earn can earn 4k Zen Beans in less than 2 hours at Plat ranking.  Since I don't farm PVE, I just do a quick Mushin's tower and now I have an excess of 2k Zen Beans at the end of the casual evening playing BNS.  If I had the time most Arena heroes have, earning 10k Zen Beans in a single day would be easy --- especially if I didn't have to split my time between doing PVE chores and playing in the Arena.

 

At the end of the day, having the option to buy your certificates with PVP earnings would be greater than not having the option at all.  If they gave a quest to say win 3 matches in a row (both 3v3 and 1v1) then you could earn a certificate that way, I'd be down with that option also.  3 wins isn't a lot, but for your average casual player that could be a challenge to accomplish - especially in the higher tiers, and it would not be easy for PvE-centered players (similar to how running dungeons with gear checks is not always easy for PVP players).