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Class discrimination - can we please not do this?

Masqava

By Masqava
in Dungeons

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Dlacik

Dlacik

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, Shiune said:

As everyone could see in the video my dps was even with aggro still higher than the dps of the FM and summoner.  

 

Illuminati confirmed. 

Do you realize that FM was using frost build which is inferior in terms of dps?

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Shiune

Shiune

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, Dlacik said:

Do you realize that FM was using frost build which is inferior in terms of dps?

I indeed realised that since I am playing a FM myself yes. 

 

Then again like i said i have still no problem if a FM is maybe ahead in terms of dps atm - then again I won't really admit they are and this run can't be taken to proove which dps is higher of the 2.

It has to be a run with a tank and a dps meter to actually make sure which of the both does more dps. 

 

It was more of a summoner bashing. 

Because ppl still don't get that summoners aren't the holy dps machine they think off. 

10 minutes ago, 882184_1452550488 said:

but the funny thing is that a summoner has the fastest kill on last boss in Mushin tower in Korea, with 24 sec, and sins " top time " is 59 sec. and all of them have equal gear and equal HM Skills unlocked.. 

 

and now i dont talk about mushin 8.1,8.2,8.3

It's not funny but just logical. 

 

A summoner does best in solo content with bosses with true sight because they can dps freely without getting aggro and dodging attacks because of their cat. 

 

An assassin and any other class on the other side have to dodge the attacks of the boss while dpsing - sounds logical right? 

 

This doesn't say anything about their dps though. 

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Ashaion

Ashaion

Posted
Posted

Hey shiune, I don't want to be mean, (as a sin I support you) but you DPS is really low in the video.

 

The dark build is actually pretty much useless today since we're lacking HM skills, and a lightning build is far better and consistant today especially against this boss, who constantly reset the poison.

 

BTW  the lightning rod does incredibly high damage when there's 5 stacks of poisons, far more than dark strike.

 

Try out yourself, on solo content, it's far more faster with a classic lightning damage ( and I really MEAN it).

 

 

Even on fief time on the big 28M HP boss I got the aggro with only 482 AP If I dps constantly.

 

 

Just to say, even a basic ligthning build like the one we used when we were low level is more effective. (today)

 

RB+F does far more damage than LM+RM

 

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Shiune

Shiune

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Posted

Again, no it doesn't. 

 

Also you are saying we are lacking the HM skills to make dark build viable?

I got all HM skills which make it viable actually (LMB and 3). 

Only thing which will improve it more is RB and of course V (but they improve lighting build in the exact same way so no difference there). 

 

I had to use many filler skills and can't properly do my dps rotations due to much aggro and that's why I lost a lot of dps in this run. 

 

I have an idea to convince you:

 

I'll make a vid where I am playing with dark and lightning build against a training dummy to show you which one is more viable under perfect conditions ok? 

 

1 thing more:

 

Lighting rod+ 5 poison stacks deals the exact same dmg as Dark Strike with 5 poison stacks. 

the difference is that you can basically spam Dark Strike after RB with a high crit rate while lighting rod has always a minimum CD of i think 3 seconds if lighting pierce resets a bit of its CD on crit. 

 

Though the difference in dps is not really big yes - especially because lighting build got buffed recently. 

 

But in KR they aren't prefering the dark build for nothing. 

They prefer it because with all HM skills and also not to forget elemental accessories (this one boosts the dark build also more than the light one) the dark build is more viable. 

 

In the end its still all about preference though because the differences aren't big at all. 

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Dlacik

Dlacik

Posted
Posted
38 minutes ago, Shiune said:

I indeed realised that since I am playing a FM myself yes. 

 

Then again like i said i have still no problem if a FM is maybe ahead in terms of dps atm - then again I won't really admit they are and this run can't be taken to proove which dps is higher of the 2.

It has to be a run with a tank and a dps meter to actually make sure which of the both does more dps. 

 

It was more of a summoner bashing. 

Because ppl still don't get that summoners aren't the holy dps machine they think off. 

I agree with the summoner part.

 

About Sin vs. FM. I think currently are FMs ahead mainly because they already have unlocked all they need for their burn build and there is actualy nothing in locked hm skills that will increase dps of burn build. While for sins, as you said, there are still some skills locked that will increase the dps of their dark build, so sins might get ahead in next patches.

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Shiune

Shiune

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Ashaion said:

Actually when you got 5poison stack there's no CD on lightning rod each time you proc ligthning pierce

Problem is that you won't have 5 poison stacks up very often (45sec CD 4 + 60sec time bomb and fighting spirit reset) while with the dark build you can stack 5 poison stacks nearly 24/7 (3 can give you 2 stacks every 12 seconds and LMB can give you 1 every 8 seconds). 

Together with Z and X in stealth + fighting spirit reset you can stack 5 poison nearly endlessly. 

 

But seriously if have nothing against the lighting build - it's just not my preference (also it is laggy af if you are in 24man dungeons, blackwyrm or any other place with many ppl). 

8 minutes ago, Dlacik said:

I agree with the summoner part.

 

About Sin vs. FM. I think currently are FMs ahead mainly because they already have unlocked all they need for their burn build and there is actualy nothing in locked hm skills that will increase dps of burn build. While for sins, as you said, there are still some skills locked that will increase the dps of their dark build, so sins might get ahead in next patches.

Could be perfectly possible yes. 

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Ashaion

Ashaion

Posted
Posted

Well : bomb/poison breath + C lotus (reset of bomb), + time bomb  + bomb/poison breath, = 30s already, then you refresh with x, z and 3, like you let your character get out of stealth to punch 3, then go back with V, repeat.

 

Not quite different thant dark build I guess

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Shiune

Shiune

Posted
Posted

How does C lotus reset bomb? o.O

 

The problem is you can't refresh it with x, z and 3 because you are still missing 1 poisoning stack then - this one you can get from LMB out of the dark build for example. 

Though it is ofc possible to still use the full skill tree of LMB for the lightning build but I am not sure if it really makes sense imo.

 

Anyway like i said i am cool with both builds in dungeons but you can't deny the fact that lighting build sux hard in laggy zones because anicanceling RB+F+4 just won't work out as smooth as RB+LMB+F. 

Same as dark build sux against solo bosses with no true sight. 

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Shiune

Shiune

Posted
Posted
36 minutes ago, Hongmoon said:

There's a video of a 500 ap fm duoing yeti 4 man. Clearly there's no reason to discriminate classes and just shows how bad you all are.

Link me this video pls because I couldn't find smth like this on YouTube. 

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Lurkios

Lurkios

Posted
Posted
On 4/5/2016 at 3:01 PM, Masqava said:

I'm seeing it more and more. ''FM/WL/Sum only, we only want ranged classes! 500+ FM/WL only!

I'm alright with the ap restriction, but constantly seeing your class being unwanted yet you add a lot to the table is pretty frustrating.

 

How can you not expect to see this? Some classes simply out perform others. Parties who wish to succeed are going to prefer better classes.

 

Rather than complaining about the players adapting to the game, why not complain about the fact that the balance is so off that it's required?

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zhoo

zhoo

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, Lurkios said:

How can you not expect to see this? Some classes simply out perform others. Parties who wish to succeed are going to prefer better classes.

 

Rather than complaining about the players adapting to the game, why not complain about the fact that the balance is so off that it's required?

balance is so far off as you think... 

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Zel

Zel

Posted
Posted
57 minutes ago, Lurkios said:

Put a BD against an FM or SMN in PvE and tell me balance isn't off.

Put any class against a FM or SMN can see what happens in a DPS race. At least BD isn't sitting in the DPS dumpster like Des/WL are.

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Zel

Zel

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Lurkios said:

WL... dps dumpster... LOL, good one!

Lowest in the current patch, FeelsBadMan. Even Soulburn doesn't makeup for them when you could make a 4-man of FM/FM/Smn/Smn and still run the table over their numbers.

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Netson

Netson

Posted
Posted
16 hours ago, Shiune said:

You see I never claimed that sin in its current state is the undisputed number 1 in terms of dps. 

There are however together with FM the number 1 and I made this vid just because there are to many ppl claiming summoners and whatnot are above sins in the dps charts when they are clearly not. 

Also there are still 2 HM skills (RB+V) missing which makes the dps of SINs go skyrocket. 

Also it was like i said very difficult to dps properly because having aggro with the dark build is a huge disadvantage because you can't evade tank the boss as with the lightning build.

If i find a good KFM/BM who can keep aggro I will upload another video which is purely for dps purposes - this one is inderd a bit a mess (even though I did quit good with dpsing+tanking in my opinion).

No. Why do you come up with mushin etc. when it's clear that you will deal more dmg with the lighting build on bosses which have no true sight and you can spam the shit out of him without him noticing. 

Dark build is dps wise simply superior to the lighting build in group fights. period.

 

It's for sure another case for soloing purposes and bosses with no true sight but do you really think I don't know how to play with the lighting build and tested out which build is better for dpsing? 

The only thing which hindered me making much more dmg is the fact that I had aggro pretty often. 

I used 1 pot because I fcked up with the iframe yeah. 

Was kinda weird because his jump took ages lol. 

And the downtime comes because off the aggro - a well tanked boss won't give me any downtime. 

Also I killed yeti often with around 3min left with skipping the ice circle phases etc. but couldn't do this with this random group because of no tank etc. 

 

The run wasn't the fastest for sure , nor did it show how much dps I could deal if the boss gets tanked properly. 

But it shows that melee dps classes (sin) can do very good if they know how to play. 

maybe ive never did the new lv50 DGs with my sin yet since ive been focusing on my wl because range allows me easy time in raids and get rewards 80%+ of the times even with only 420ap.

i know that poh sees through stealth also but the build works there better than shadow build if u get a set up pty i think u get what i mean grab its on place by the time it gets down it gets ready for aoe by the time aoe is done its getting on the time for another one and so we go because of fast dps. but ye if u deal loads of dmg poh will almost not move if u get a destro in pty she will not move at all since she will either be grabed or during aoe phase having litle to no movement wich would be similliar to mushin tower.

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megaronus

megaronus

Posted
Posted

Thers 2 easy solutions for this, 1: make your own group 2: go random.

 

I for one rarelt join a pre made group, the auto group find system is one of the things I love in this game. Sure sometimes you get a really bad group, but most of the time its fine. Atm im with full Yeti and it was all with a random group.

 

So dont take all that too serious :P

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WADofMEAT

WADofMEAT

Posted
Posted
On 4/5/2016 at 4:53 PM, Masqava said:

Honestly, I've ran Yeti 4-man with a BD, SUM & another DES as a DES myself, the BD and summoner both had 450 AP, the other destroyer 490 and I had 519.

We had about a minute left. Yeti is by no means a hard boss if you know the mechanics. 3 of these classes are sadly often excluded, including me (533 ap now, mastered a lot of tricks such as getting the first miniboss yeti from the pillar by jumping off the pillar) so when I'm looking for teams, getting kicked just for being a destroyer sucks.

I feel same way not matter about how much AP you have,  long has you know the mechanics.

 

I'll take a party  with 420 AP or less if they know what to do..... over a 500 ap group anyday

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zhoo

zhoo

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, Zel said:

Put any class against a FM or SMN can see what happens in a DPS race. At least BD isn't sitting in the DPS dumpster like Des/WL are.

LOL warlock/des dps dumpster? you have to be kidding 

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