Human pschology with regard to time and effort vs reward.

[Fuz]

Good old Skinner Box.

[Oxygen]

2 hours ago, Lacy said:

I have to admit when I read the first part of your post I was a bit annoyed (not in the mood to read my post but still you decide to comment on it), but after reading the rest I was fine with what you said.  No worries.  You are right about the way the industry has been operating and that it is considered the norm.  I harshly criticize their way of doing things, however.

Yea,sorry again and I actually said sorry in the original post..

I had a lecture like right before I wrote the first post and couldn't stand reading more psychology stuff that actually asked for more concentration so I just read the points that caught my attention of your post and understood the general concept/point you are trying to prove then replied..

That's why I wasn't in the mood because,I was stressed out and trying to relax,alright?

2 hours ago, Fuz said:

Good old Skinner Box.

You got that one right..

When they become so grindy like that,they call it skinner strategy..Sadly its a common trend among most MMORPGs nowadays.

[ARC-1276]

GG I think I might just need to take the OP's advice on reading what he/she  means! 

 

Break it down into pieces and focus on one task at a time. lol

 

But still there is something you can learn from this. Good thing I typically only think of making gold first, then bothering with everything else.

[Piper]

10 hours ago, khynnea said:

You may well be right -- they may not *care* about the rest of the market, those of us who would prefer something more engaging or more rewarding or more challenging or more ... whatever. The side effect is that we'll eventually stop playing, and stop paying, and if they don't care, so be it. But it doesn't change the simple fact that ultimately a *better* product is generally produced when principles of user centered design (aka psychology of some form) are utilized to generate requirements for a product, instead of "how can we get people addicted to behaviors and spend more money." You can actually do both at once, and have happy customers who are brand loyal AND spend a lot, lot, lot of money. The trick is convincing executives of this. Ha.

The thing is, this game is nothing more than a gold grind. That's it. There are no beautiful, epic raids that you and your mates progress through - just the same mundane dungeons that you beat the first time you queued up. There are no battlegrounds or warfronts, just pvp dailies that consist of running back and forth killing NPC's. You fight the same bosses, the same mobs, and do the same dailies over and over and over. And you progress very slowly while doing so. The price of progression is daunting and many players choose to buy gold to "skip over" the mind-numbing tedium that is this game, not realizing that once they get their gear there's nothing to do except what they didn't want to do in the first place.

 

They leave and someone just likes them takes their place. And while the majority of Western players may not see this as a success, NCSOFT certainly does. They don't care about how good the game is, they only care about how good the money is. This is the cancer that is F2P and it has utterly destroyed the genre.

 

 

[SilverMushin]

12 hours ago, Lacy said:

Understanding basic human psychology would go a long way to improving  all MMO games, especially ones that are very grind heavy.

 

Generally, when people look at the big picture and see the task as overwhelming, they just give up.

 

On the other hand, if a person focuses on what they can do, as opposed to what they can not do, they are able to overcome difficulties that seem to be insurmountable or extremely unreasonable.  In other words, if a person can concentrate on one piece of the puzzle instead of trying to do everything at once, the goal can be viewed as something that is obtainable even if it will take a very long time to reach.

 

The problem with most mmos, especially ones that are very grind heavy, is that even tiny pieces of the whole puzzle require too much effort or expense to obtain.  They require too much effort for too little reward and too little progression.  I think careful research and adjustment of the cost per reward needs to be accomplished by these developers. 

 

Some players are hardcore, some are casual, and some are somewhere in between.  A careful balance needs to be accomplished when implementing time and effort needed vs reward  game mechanics.

 

Guesstimates:

What constitutes a casual player?   I guess 2-5 hours per week play time?  What seems reasonable to a casual player (effort and time vs reward and progression)

What constitutes a hardcore player? Over 8 hours per day play time?  ""

What constitutes the middle ground? Over 2 hours per day play time? ""

How many players of each classification constitutes the entire population?

Are there many casual players? Or have all gamers become hardcore?

Are there many hardcore players? Or are they more rare?

Can you satisfy each type of player and keep them paying and playing for a long time?

That's the bottom line isn't it? A greater number of satisfied players equals more money, right?

 

Regardless the true classification and statistics, I believe everyone wants to be rewarded fairly for their efforts, so maybe the the progression needs to be adjusted to smaller increments.  The casual player can get one or two progressions per week.  The hardcore player can get 5 progressions per day.

 

What about the other rewards?  If a person does 4 of the 5 blue level 50 dungeons and all three level 50 purple dungeons but only ends up with a handful of gold, a few potions and/or dumplings, and a few repair tools they might end the day extremely dissatisfied.  To many, working all day for a potion feels like a complete waste of time.  If it takes too long for any kind of progress, people will give up.

 

If game companies want to keep players hooked, they need to balance out the progression and reward with the amount of time and effort required to obtain them.  They need to improve the quality of the content they are providing and increase the number of options so that people don't get bored running the same thing over and over every play session.

 

Developers need to keep players from being bored.  Some people love the long grind to obtain something as they feel great satisfaction from the process.  Some people hate grinding for something they feel is not worth the effort.  Some people hate grinding of any kind.  They feel repetitive play over long periods is excruciatingly boring.

 

If developers want to keep their player base and see their numbers grow, they need to rework the old tired standard of MMOs.  Would the average player find this fun?  Would the average player see the time and effort spent to be rewarding? Or only the very hardcore players that love to grind the same thing over and over for little reward?  Random Procedural-ly Generated Content has been around for a long time and goes a long way towards keeping players from becoming bored with your content which might become boring after only a few times running through it. 

 

In closing, I would just like to say that you are all doing it wrong.  :)

Tldr; Although, I can surely say I can sum up your entire point with psychology as well: Learned helplessness.

[Fuz]

3 hours ago, Oxygen said:

You got that one right..

When they become so grindy like that,they call it skinner strategy..Sadly its a common trend among most MMORPGs nowadays.

Yeah, but the goal must be in sight or it doesn't work for long.

[khynnea]

10 hours ago, Piper said:

The thing is, this game is nothing more than a gold grind. That's it. There are no beautiful, epic raids that you and your mates progress through - just the same mundane dungeons that you beat the first time you queued up. There are no battlegrounds or warfronts, just pvp dailies that consist of running back and forth killing NPC's. You fight the same bosses, the same mobs, and do the same dailies over and over and over. And you progress very slowly while doing so. The price of progression is daunting and many players choose to buy gold to "skip over" the mind-numbing tedium that is this game, not realizing that once they get their gear there's nothing to do except what they didn't want to do in the first place.

 

They leave and someone just likes them takes their place. And while the majority of Western players may not see this as a success, NCSOFT certainly does. They don't care about how good the game is, they only care about how good the money is. This is the cancer that is F2P and it has utterly destroyed the genre.

 

 

I do agree with you completely. The point I would argue is that at its core, BnS has a lot of redeeming qualities, and could be turned into a sustainable and even more profitable game if it wasn't handled the way that it is. As a gamer it's frustrating to see company after company take the quick and easy dollar route rather than actually just make a good game and build to 80% of the players' needs, or even 60% or some such, or do an appropriate study to find a good maximization route rather than monetize what they have for the highest yield without caring about how long it lasts or how "good" it truly is as a product. I always cared about how good something I made was, and fortunately statistics and user-centered design actually hold up in the end for a sustainability ... you just have to care in the first place.

 

When something seems fun or has enough utility (for me that would be a fun vs frustration vs cost factor, whatever that amorphously turns out to be), then I'll give it a try until it swings too far against and I'll toss whatever is left into the sunk cost pile and move on. I won't mindlessly spend, but as I said, I would happily spend if the proper incentives were there. If someone is putting lipstick on a cow and trying to pawn it off on me, no.

[Duranox]

20 hours ago, Oxygen said:

Roflmfao

 

Speaking of grinding,there are 2 types of grinding:

 

1-Fun type of grinding.(like fun quests,farming different mobs with new unique skills,challenges like some achievements and specially non repetitive content)

2-Boring type of grinding.(At least,90% of players have a PHD for that type of grinding)

 

People normally want the first type but when they mention grinding,they are referring to the second type most of time.

Problem here is that the 2 types of grinds are EXTREMELY subjective. I don't mind the daily quest grind in this game at all. Hell i'd advocate for daily quest cap removal so people can grind even more.

[Enamour]

20 hours ago, Lacy said:

I believe it is correct to say that there might be something clinically wrong with a person who enjoys being severely underpaid for their effort.

Why must there be something wrong with someone like this, though? You seem to understand that value is subjective to each and every individual yet deem that something must be wrong by one who have values on time vs reward of which is lower than yours or the "standard" as having something wrong with them. You had me up until this sentence.

[Lacy]

4 hours ago, Enamour said:

Why must there be something wrong with someone like this, though? You seem to understand that value is subjective to each and every individual yet deem that something must be wrong by one who have values on time vs reward of which is lower than yours or the "standard" as having something wrong with them. You had me up until this sentence.

Question: You disagree with one point in my post so that means the rest of what I said has no merit?

 

Let me try to explain:

 

You are correct to say that each person perceives value differently and that it is subjective.  However, if a person realizes that they are being severely underpaid for their effort and are still happy about it, then that person has displayed a fault in their thinking.  It is correct to say that they are behaving illogically, since being severely underpaid is clearly being treated unfairly.  They are being taken advantage of.  They are being abused.  To take this idea to an extreme, consider children who are illegally forced to work in a sweatshop, overworked and barely paid anything.  This is considered cruelty.

 

Since Suffrage in the USA which dealt with equal rights for women, you would be hard pressed to find a female who would be happy about being paid less than a male for doing the same exact job and performing equally.  Clearly this is unfair.  Being happy about being severely underpaid and treated so poorly/unfairly is and illogical way of thinking and is considered mentally defective. A more clinical diagnosis can only be spoke of by a professional, but Masochist might be the correct term to describe this person.

 

Example (taken to an extreme to show my point):

John gets paid five apples for doing the job and is living in the lap of luxury.

Mary gets paid one apple for doing the exact same job and performing equally, but is living in extreme poverty unable to make ends meet.

Clearly this is unfair and the normal healthy way of thinking is for Mary to be unhappy about being treated so poorly/unfairly and severely underpaid.

It would be illogical and mentally defective for Mary to enjoy being severely underpaid for her effort. If she were happy, would she not be considered a masochist? She is being abused, yet she enjoys it?  Masochism is considered by professionals to be a mental abnormality and mentally unhealthy. If she were enjoying being abused like this, would there not be something clinically wrong with her?  Looks that way to me.

[Oxygen]

6 hours ago, Duranox said:

Problem here is that the 2 types of grinds are EXTREMELY subjective. I don't mind the daily quest grind in this game at all. Hell i'd advocate for daily quest cap removal so people can grind even more.

You make a good point..Yes,it is subjective but think of it..Won't most of those who find second type fun still find first type fun as well?

So you choose the type of grind that satisfies the minority and annoys the majority because,you can bear it or satisfy both with first type?

 

Yes,there will be some special cases and exceptions who hate first type but like second type (they will be a minority of the minority)and that's why I said (People "normally" want the first type) but ofc there will be exceptions so is it a priority to speak of the great majority or the exceptions and special cases?

 

Got my point?

 

[Shaidon]

I play games to feel good about myself. And that means, feel that I'm progressing at the same pace, and winning.

I have two characters stuck in the True Profane rank (including the similar rank for the accessories), because the flow that I used to this point, became static and repetitive. Also the game is pushing me to do PvP, that is not of my interested. And I have reasons for it, that is not the typical rude answer about my skills.

Can't complain about it. Can't expect changes. Why? Because there plenty of conformist players, that can't understand my point of view, and will find ways to depreciate my person and wishes. For developers might be profitable, as some of the grind can be soften up by spending real money, in a directly or indirectly way.

 

Must say that the grind is really putting me off the game. Add the rudeness of some players in game that I'm forced to deal with it, since I need to play with them to progress. ; The rudeness on this forum; The game troubles to run; and something else that I dare not to say, because I know that won't end up well.

[Lacy]

I would love to see some honest statistical data related to this discussion.  All of it.

 

I believe if these developers vigorously and thoroughly studied all genuine data they could gather related to this discussion, MMOs would improve greatly for everyone and the industry could enter a new renaissance that dwarfs the last one.  It would mean much greater enjoyment for players in much greater numbers and much greater profitability for the entire industry. I guarantee it.

 

So far, I have only seen amateurish attempts to gather and analyze data which only brought forth lackluster results and unsafe conclusions.

 

 

[khynnea]

1 hour ago, Lacy said:

I would love to see some honest statistical data related to this discussion.  All of it.

I believe if these developers vigorously and thoroughly studied all genuine data they could gather related to this discussion, MMOs would improve greatly for everyone and the industry could enter a new renaissance that dwarfs the last one.  It would mean much greater enjoyment for players in much greater numbers and much greater profitability for the entire industry. I guarantee it.

So far, I have only seen amateurish attempts to gather and analyze data which only brought forth lackluster results and unsafe conclusions.

 

I would be very happy if they used the survey data received to improve the game -- or better yet, took better surveys and allowed more text entry and didn't just recently gut the surveys themselves and shorten them. I'm sure their response would be as with many support tickets -- post your feedback in the forums, but that is neither blind feedback nor is it welcomed with open arms when moderator presence on the forums is so erratic, unpredictable.

 

Feedback loops should be closed and continuous, and to some degree, transparent. We just don't see that. Whenever you aren't willing to be transparent with your customers it begs the question why. How to convince someone to develop an MMO this way.