Human pschology with regard to time and effort vs reward.

[Lacy]

Understanding basic human psychology would go a long way to improving  all MMO games, especially ones that are very grind heavy.

 

Generally, when people look at the big picture and see the task as overwhelming, they just give up.

 

On the other hand, if a person focuses on what they can do, as opposed to what they can not do, they are able to overcome difficulties that seem to be insurmountable or extremely unreasonable.  In other words, if a person can concentrate on one piece of the puzzle instead of trying to do everything at once, the goal can be viewed as something that is obtainable even if it will take a very long time to reach.

 

The problem with most mmos, especially ones that are very grind heavy, is that even tiny pieces of the whole puzzle require too much effort or expense to obtain.  They require too much effort for too little reward and too little progression.  I think careful research and adjustment of the cost per reward needs to be accomplished by these developers. 

 

Some players are hardcore, some are casual, and some are somewhere in between.  A careful balance needs to be accomplished when implementing time and effort needed vs reward  game mechanics.

 

Guesstimates:

What constitutes a casual player?   I guess 2-5 hours per week play time?  What seems reasonable to a casual player (effort and time vs reward and progression)

What constitutes a hardcore player? Over 8 hours per day play time?  ""

What constitutes the middle ground? Over 2 hours per day play time? ""

How many players of each classification constitutes the entire population?

Are there many casual players? Or have all gamers become hardcore?

Are there many hardcore players? Or are they more rare?

Can you satisfy each type of player and keep them paying and playing for a long time?

That's the bottom line isn't it? A greater number of satisfied players equals more money, right?

 

Regardless the true classification and statistics, I believe everyone wants to be rewarded fairly for their efforts, so maybe the the progression needs to be adjusted to smaller increments.  The casual player can get one or two progressions per week.  The hardcore player can get 5 progressions per day.

 

What about the other rewards?  If a person does 4 of the 5 blue level 50 dungeons and all three level 50 purple dungeons but only ends up with a handful of gold, a few potions and/or dumplings, and a few repair tools they might end the day extremely dissatisfied.  To many, working all day for a potion feels like a complete waste of time.  If it takes too long for any kind of progress, people will give up.

 

If game companies want to keep players hooked, they need to balance out the progression and reward with the amount of time and effort required to obtain them.  They need to improve the quality of the content they are providing and increase the number of options so that people don't get bored running the same thing over and over every play session.

 

Developers need to keep players from being bored.  Some people love the long grind to obtain something as they feel great satisfaction from the process.  Some people hate grinding for something they feel is not worth the effort.  Some people hate grinding of any kind.  They feel repetitive play over long periods is excruciatingly boring.

 

If developers want to keep their player base and see their numbers grow, they need to rework the old tired standard of MMOs.  Would the average player find this fun?  Would the average player see the time and effort spent to be rewarding? Or only the very hardcore players that love to grind the same thing over and over for little reward?  Random Procedural-ly Generated Content has been around for a long time and goes a long way towards keeping players from becoming bored with your content which might become boring after only a few times running through it. 

 

In closing, I would just like to say that you are all doing it wrong.  :)

[Lacy]

4 minutes ago, Formus said:

TL;DR: 'grind is boring, gimme endgame set in 1 week, then it will be real fun'

 

 

Please contemplate the old saying, "Seek first to understand, then be understood."  It appears that you do not understand, .... or you think you do, but you don't.

[Formus]

TL;DR: 'grind is boring, gimme endgame set in 1 week, then it will be real fun'

[Theodory]

6 minutes ago, Formus said:

TL;DR: 'grind is boring, gimme endgame set in 1 week, then it will be real fun'

so u didn,t get anything about the human psychology part, oh wait u did not even read it. >_>. should not put on a biased opinion on this post  without even understanding what op meant. 

[khynnea]

Another thing about the whole 'hard core v. casual v. hybrid' player argument is that not all hard core players are the same based on your definition. Time commitment alone isn't enough -- goals matter. I can spend 12 hours a day in game and my goals can vary widely from those of another players, and I can walk away shaking my head at the game thinking that it has missed its mark hugely and that a few key components are missing.

 

Having played mmo's for far too long now, I've got a nice list of my 'requirements' for the mmo of my dreams, and no one implements them. If someone ever did, I'd probably throw money hand over fist at the game whether it was riddled with microtransactions or not. The problem is, having spent my entire professional career working in user centered design, I don't see anyone actually implementing user centered design to build games. It's wildly disappointing to see them built around transactions and where money can be acquired rather than player need and desire and motivation, and then marketizing those things to a -sane- degree.

 

 

Anyway, yeah... some idiot always puts their own opinion/idea in front of what is best for a product, I'm just glad at some point I learned to start saying 'stop asking me, go test.'

 

[Formus]

i do, but i find it absolutely useless. Human psychology? Reworking old standards of MMO's? What's the actual point of this thread? This is still f2p game so i don't see any reason why should devs listen to plenty of random wannabe philosophers who think that they know how to make their FREE product better.

Every single MMO is about grind. That's a fact. If you get rid of grind, it won't be a MMO anymore.

[Oxygen]

1 minute ago, Formus said:

Every single MMO is about grind. That's a fact. If you get rid of grind, it won't be a MMO anymore.

Roflmfao

 

Speaking of grinding,there are 2 types of grinding:

 

1-Fun type of grinding.(like fun quests,farming different mobs with new unique skills,challenges like some achievements and specially non repetitive content)

2-Boring type of grinding.(At least,90% of players have a PHD for that type of grinding)

 

People normally want the first type but when they mention grinding,they are referring to the second type most of time.

[khynnea]

1 hour ago, Formus said:

i do, but i find it absolutely useless. Human psychology? Reworking old standards of MMO's? What's the actual point of this thread? This is still f2p game so i don't see any reason why should devs listen to plenty of random wannabe philosophers who think that they know how to make their FREE product better.

Every single MMO is about grind. That's a fact. If you get rid of grind, it won't be a MMO anymore.

Actually, I'm a paying customer with feedback, and I'll stop being a paying customer when it's clear they no longer want to have me as a paying a customer -- they ignore enough feedback, the game doesn't change for the localized region, they just keep milking the cash cow, whatever. Take your pick. If it's a "take it or leave it, pay us if you want to but otherwise just shut up and gtfo" sort of game, I can accept that, and at some point when the fun is gone, get out. If I want to be invested, then sure there are things I would like to see change over time.

 

Your "f2p like it or leave it" argument is sort of spurious. The game can only exist as a f2p game if some people pay, and typically some of those paying customers do have things they'd like to see changed over time if they intend to stay. If you don't want or need our support I expect some of us will leave over time, and others will pick up the slack. But games don't stay f2p indefinitely.

 

And MMOs are not designed to be grind fests. MMOs are designed to make money. If they couldn't make money AS grind fests, I expect they would at some point change. Yes, even f2p games make money. See above.

 

I must be bored in game to respond...

[authyrtyr]

I think the key to these kinds of things is not to focus on the steps of progression. If you enjoy playing your class and stick to the stuff you can do then you can have fun playing the game regardless of the how fast you're progressing. Personally I never want to hit the end of the progression because then I have nothing to work for anymore. Playing a game shouldn't be a job and you shouldn't be panicking about hitting top tier stats as quickly as possible. Just enjoy the journey.

[Gratus]

14 minutes ago, Formus said:

Every single MMO is about grind. That's a fact. If you get rid of grind, it won't be a MMO anymore.

That's not a fact, and yes it would still be an MMORPG.

[SuperWangEight]

I took two semester of AP psychology in my senior year highschool. I don't recall anything about ways of "achieving a goal" or attitudes on reaching the goal. The closest I can relate to is operant conditioning of reward vs. punishment (but players aren't punished for not hardcore grinding) so this is not it. Another would be self-esteem in maslow's pyramid but self-esteem is not the topic of this discussion. I don't see how what op said is "human psychology", I think it's more on differing point of view between different individuals. 

 

Overall, I agree with Formus, BnS is a f2p game. The developers are not required to obey the demands of the players. The weapon upgrade path and materials are identical to TW and JP server and was never changed. I believe in patience is a virtue, you don't need to grind hardcore, more or less, a couple of dailies everyday will eventually get you capped.

[Lacy]

For some folks working all day for a handful of gold, a few potions, a few dumplings, a few repair tools and no actual progression is rewarding.  They enjoy the fact that it takes a week worth of hard effort to reach any meaningful goal.  They are more satisfied by overcoming a difficult challenge and feel the reward is plenty.

 

For some, the amount of time and effort needed to obtain any significant and meaningful progression, is unreasonable.  If the time/effort per reward were adjusted to be what they believe to be more reasonable,  They could end the day saying, "I got something done.  I am satisfied.  It was a rewarding experience. I'm going to come back tomorrow and keep plugging away at it."  As it is now, a player can work all day and end with nothing significant or meaningful accomplished.  To them, the time and effort spent was not worth the reward.

 

I think the amount time and effort needed for a significant reward needs to be adjusted.  Instead of ten stages of the weapon upgrade that costs greatly for little effect, maybe it should be a hundred stages, much lower cost for each tiny stage, and each upgrade increment be significant and meaningful.

 

In real life, people working their butt off 12 hours a day for minimum wage just so they can barely get by is not rewarding. They feel it is not worth the effort.  Understandably, they want a better paying job but there aren't any obtainable by them.  They are stuck in a miserable low paying job where they work their butt off day by day to barely get by and are greatly unhappy about it. Psychologically speaking, I believe it is correct to say that there might be something clinically wrong with a person who enjoys being severely underpaid for their effort.

[khynnea]

1 hour ago, SuperWangEight said:

Overall, I agree with Formus, BnS is a f2p game. The developers are not required to obey the demands of the players. The weapon upgrade path and materials are identical to TW and JP server and was never changed. I believe in patience is a virtue, you don't need to grind hardcore, more or less, a couple of dailies everyday will eventually get you capped.

Again, the game might be f2p, but the freeness of it does not keep it running. Saying "the game is f2p, take it as it is and enjoy it" is not meaningful feedback to anyone who has paid for the game in any way, or who is *considering* a purchase.

 

Localization is not just translation/transliteration. It is far more than that, ideally. Adjusting a game for an accelerated release schedule and a new region would ideally encompass more than just rapid release of content. Patience might be a virtue, and if you are consuming this game as f2p, you can choose to go be patient or you can choose to give feedback as well, a player is still a player and this game won't be successful without free OR paying players.

 

As someone who wants more out of the game, and who isn't "grinding" hard core but who is "playing" hard core, and who is playing the game as they want, and trying to optimize investment of dollars to hours of fun, I still want to give feedback. I see nothing wrong with advocating user-centered design and trying to get more out of a game than saying "it works this way in other regions, shut up and grind."

 

I can grind like anyone, but if it's not enjoyable, I will eventually go do something else and I will stop supporting a game that otherwise has a lot of redeemable and enjoyable features. If there are enough people who don't mind senseless grinding as their pastime, the game will be successful. In *my* opinion, it won't be as successful as it could otherwise be if they took the time to incorporate something not so mindless. I'm not saying to make it "easier" -- just less mindless and boring. If I have to do three things at once to get through grinding for gold, it's just way too ... mindless.

[Formus]

Well, the second kind of folks should change game then. Cuz i doubt they will change the basic game mechanics just cuz reasons i wrote above.

Nuff said i am ok with the current mechanics. In some games you can make the item disappear while upgrading, for example. Even veryvery rare item. Here is it all safe & clear. Eventually everyone will reach his own goal with little will.

[khynnea]

1 hour ago, Formus said:

Well, the second kind of folks should change game then. Cuz i doubt they will change the basic game mechanics just cuz reasons i wrote above.

Nuff said i am ok with the current mechanics. In some games you can make the item disappear while upgrading, for example. Even veryvery rare item. Here is it all safe & clear. Eventually everyone will reach his own goal with little will.

You may well be right -- they may not *care* about the rest of the market, those of us who would prefer something more engaging or more rewarding or more challenging or more ... whatever. The side effect is that we'll eventually stop playing, and stop paying, and if they don't care, so be it. But it doesn't change the simple fact that ultimately a *better* product is generally produced when principles of user centered design (aka psychology of some form) are utilized to generate requirements for a product, instead of "how can we get people addicted to behaviors and spend more money." You can actually do both at once, and have happy customers who are brand loyal AND spend a lot, lot, lot of money. The trick is convincing executives of this. Ha.

[Oxygen]

TBH,I am not in the mood to read whole post,sorry. @Lacy

However, your post seems interesting.

 

Point is most MMOs nowadays (specially free ones) want you to give up so you end up getting it the easy way using cash and let alone if you have potential to pay alot.

 

That's wrong?Yes,indeed it is..That's pretty much a short term survival plan not a long term one.

 

Most MMOs today use the harvest strategy where you make a pretty cool game but then start to make it more grindy bit by bit till they absorb as much cash as they can then the game dies and "Project closed".They can later sell it to another company or just leave it there becoming somewhat a ghost of the past.

 

Then,they start working on another one to start a new harvest..Do you get it?

 

Do they get much profit from this?

SURE!

Can they make more profit if they stop  following such short term strategies?

Imo,tons of successful games that you keep successful should be far more profitable (specially on long term) than tons of failures over the years that spoil your record and only 1 or 2 current successes that would inevitably be added to the failure list as well (specially with existence of strong competition and in the field of MMORPGs and games,there is strong competition ofc).

 

Example:did you notice what some of the people who left AION say about it?

If what they said about it indicated negative experience,would you be interested to try this game?

Would your impression of NCSoft (the company who made both games) stay the same?

Would you feel confident to pay more for new games this company makes in the future?

 

^AKA disadvantages of short term strategies like these. :)

Is this game that grindy or not?

 

Imo, and just Imo,this game is not that bad when it comes to grinding..Yes,I agree that some stuff take some good time to be farmed but trust me,I have played tons of other MMORPGS and I have seen worse.

However,who knows,I might be abit biased since I tried alot of other games.

 

So Am I against reducing amount of grinding in this game?

OFC not. XD Who would refuse such an advantage? :D

[Lacy]

4 minutes ago, Formus said:

Well, the second kind of folks should change game then. Cuz i doubt they will change the basic game mechanics just cuz reasons i wrote above.

Nuff said i am ok with the current mechanics. In some games you can make the item disappear while upgrading, for example. Even veryvery rare item. Here is it all safe & clear. Eventually everyone will reach his own goal with little will.

The problem with this kind of attitude is that just because other mmo games do it, or all mmo games for that matter, doesn't mean that it is the best way or even close.  Personally, I would rather play a game that is fun all the time, without the miserable boring parts.  Grinding in and of itself is not the problem, it is that this grind is boring and unrewarding. Plain and simple.

[Lumina]

The true point of the game is to make baseline gearing easy while the bis stuff is actually the 1% get first, then everyone else. They will spend to get geared first to maintan the advantage they have in overworld pvp and the game was intentionally designed that way. To make spending to get there first a vital element to keeping their clan on top, and most attractive. All of the non-pvp content is doable in groups even without the top upgrades available right now.

 

Nothing about that will be changed because doing so would only hurt the bottom line. Corporate will NEVER give up the whale-based model for  F2P games and we have to accept this. Trust me, i ended up on a player board for communicating with GMs and this mantra is too thick to ever cut through with GMs who's jobs ultimately depend on their game's performance. Quickly attainable endgames are a F2P company's biggest nope.  Subscription based games are a better bet for that , always and forevermore.

 

The repetitive grind is not optimal for rewarding individual play, but to appeal to clans and groups of players who stay invested because of each other, they have dailies to do with each other on a regular basis(that are often worth doing together regardless of modest differences n stats) to build up their funds and help each other out. As the clan grows stronger as a group they find new content getting easier and easier and slowly they're catching up to the 1% out of commitment to their group of friends.

 

Making grindy, daily content actually works  well for clan-based gaming because it gives them a reason to interact regularly, not because there's a new released boss to kill and then ignore. The social aspects of clans , especially better ones that involve a clan discord for talking while getting the daily repetitive tasks done, is why korean MMOs don't bother creating too much variety in their games: they are already counting on the social interactions of players to provide it.

 

I doubt that will ever change, but given the fact that organizing clan runs and sharing drops can save and make profiting a LOT more easier than running pugs, there's some interest by the devs to reward social play as it is, after all, an MMO.

 

That said i can truly say that in this game, the only player thats truly screwed over in BnS is the solo player. you farm dailies and have to spend your gold just to get drops you want, you have to spend both time AND money in higher amounts on average to get ahead. Ofc, i feel that since working with others DOES take more effort, working with a clan should be more rewarding, i can't deny that soloing is the shortest end of the stick.

 

Overall though i feel players would be a lot happier if they just played at the pace they could afford to play at and not worry about winning a race thats already decided by those with the most free time.

 

About your core argument though; I believe that no matter what, the gear to be able to conquer the current and highest tier dungeons should always be attainable by all players and, with a Lv 50 HM 3 character i've been able to do that with my clan. I may not have the BiS gear yet but i don't need it, and im farming the current BiS resources to line my pockets with gold and close the gap. I'm actually very satisfiied with how BnS is right now, not perfect, but not the worst,  especially compared to other Korean MMO imports.

[Zetsuei]

5 hours ago, Oxygen said:

TBH,I am not in the mood to read whole post,sorry. @Lacy

 

You were not capable of reading a single page of text because of your "mood" yet you were able to respond with a page of text. Do you enjoy being deliberately ignorant, or is this what constitutes human intelligence. "I won't read what you had to say, but I will respond to what you said." What? I'm a bit confused. 

 

Anyways, with that now aside. I agree with the OP, it's where all if not most MMO'S fall short these days. WoW is a great example of this, where there was always something to do, you felt you were accomplishing something, whether it be through raids, pvp, leveling, etc. The game was not nearly as magical as it sounded, or was made to be seen; but the fact that you wanted to play the game at the start of the day, and end with it showed Blizzard found somewhat of a balance. 

 

The ONLY MMO I see currently do this is FFXIV, yes it is a game I play, and have been playing since 1.0 (the terrible version). Even with the bad UI, laggy system menus, and very linear design, the game still had things to do that felt rewarding for the time invested. It wasn't anything special or a MMO to brag about, but even with issues, it was still enjoyable for what it was, and had to offer. Even after 1.0 failed SE took a game that failed, and rebuilt it from scratch. With the release of 2.0 the game had got back on it's feet, and begun the whole process over again. Server issues were there, content was alright, pvp was terrible the game looked like any MMO launch in the past decade. Square refused to just give up though, and give into instant money returns, and worked diligently on the game, which is still P2P 3 years later and bringing in consistent revenue. Now that's taking pride in your brand, and why I will continue spending money on the game. 

 

FFXIV has kept old, and new players content. There is always something to do for casual, in-between and hardcore players. With only 3 years under their belt, the game is still learning and growing, and the content is becoming better every patch. B&S has been out for 5 years now? And although the Korean version is far better, still has very common issues that people complain about here. NCwest decided to take this version though, and turn it into a dirty money laundering game; once the empire collapses they will all just take their pocketed money and vanish with their riches. I honestly feel exactly like this when I think of NA/EU's version of B&S. It has people working in some of the worst conditions, trying to make ends meet, and in the end you can never win because the higher powers have no intentions of fixing the state of things, you're only here to be used and to feed them money while the hype is there. 

 

I also know this will most likely be removed, and the post locked as you can see from all CM's history all they have been doing is deleting the posts that directly target clear issues of the game, and only responding to the "Hey we need merchandise for B&S" "OH YES that's a great idea! I will send that to our team" 

 

 

[Lacy]

Some of you understand what I have been trying to say even if you disagree. Thank you for taking the time to consider my words and for replying with such intelligent and polite words of your own.

 

Some of you though, ignored what I said, and judged my words as nothing more than a "Gimme all the best gear in one week!" complaint.

 

What I mean in simplest terms is:

The rewards are too small and too far between.  The rewards are too little for too much time and effort.  If a person works hard all day, I believe they would want more than a potion for for their time and effort.  If after a week of working hard every day, they still have nothing significant accomplished, they will be discouraged, unsatisfied, and unhappy.  Not only is the grind boring, but it is unrewarding and not fun.
 

I hope for a better system that will keep players happily paying and playing longer and still be satisfied no matter what classification they fall under.  An example might be:

 

A system where if the person works for a reasonable amount of time, they can increase their stats a little bit, obtain something significant and meaningful, and complete a short term goal that is satisfying and rewarding.  At the end of the day they can say, "Great!  I raised my AP by two, crit by 10, crit damage by 10,  got all the ingredients for my crafting project, hit the jackpot on a loot drop, earned enough gold for that awesome thing I wanted, and upgraded one piece of gear.  The experience was rewarding and I am satisfied with the amount of effort it took to obtain it.".  Of course, the hardcore players would be saying something like "Great! I raised my AP by 15, crit by 30, crit damage by 30,  got all the ingredients needed for two crafting projects, hit the jackpot twice on loot drops, earned enough gold for two awesome things I wanted, and upgraded two pieces of gear."  This kind of thing might not work out, but the goal is a good one and the point remains valid.  Both players come away satisfied and happy about the reward for the time and effort they spent on it.  My point isn't that the casuals should get everything that the hardcores get. That's ridiculous.  My point is that the reward and progression be more frequent and more satisfying for the time and effort spent on it for everyone.  If you worked hard a couple hours on developing your character, you should get more than a *cricket* potion.  You shouldn't hide required materials behind pvp or pve.  These items should be equally obtainable by each type of player without forcing them to do something they don't enjoy. Don't use horrible boss mechanics (chef blinding you, yes blinding the actual player with that white screen or the boss is untargetable and jumps around like an idiot while we all just stand there annoyed, or massive aoes or instant kill attacks. Lazy Garbage game design!).  Fix the infuriatingly borked amateur walkmeshes in nearly every single one of your levels. Remove the crappy invisible walls and colliders that interfere with the player's movement.  The time it takes to level up should be the same for every level all the way to the cap (longer than you have at the beginning of course, but way shorter than you have for the end game; maybe your max level should be 5000 so that you can scale it properly; don't be afraid of large numbers).  Increasing the time it takes for the player to obtain a reward and level up is bad game design.  The loot should be equal for everyone and not a bid war where only the rich obtain the prize.  Everyone wants to be rewarded for their effort in taking down the boss (come on, it's a boss....surely he/she has more wealth than a potion or a common relic piece (pebble); he probably has stacks of gold, magical weapons, gems, potions, and other wondrous items in his treasure room). If after working hard all day and all you walk away with is a handful of potions, well you might be discouraged, unsatisfied, and unhappy. 

 

Personally, I can't bring myself to log in any more.  The grind is too long, too boring, too unrewarding, and too unsatisfying.  Nothing is worth the effort.

 

Times have changed and the days of Everquest level grinding keeping players happy are gone.  That was when MMOs were still new and marvelous.  When pong came out, it was a huge hit, but now people are not so easily impressed or amused, thus game design needs to evolve a long with the times.  Personally, I think no company has beaten wow yet, because they are using an old formula which no longer keeps the majority of players happy.

[Oxygen]

2 hours ago, Zetsuei said:

You were not capable of reading a single page of text because of your "mood" yet you were able to respond with a page of text. Do you enjoy being deliberately ignorant, or is this what constitutes human intelligence. "I won't read what you had to say, but I will respond to what you said." What? I'm a bit confused.

 

 

1-Let me explain what I said exactly:

I said "TBH,I am not in the mood to read whole post" and  let me emphasize "to read whole post" however I read part of it and that was explained later when I said " However, your post seems interesting." which compliments his post and I also said "sorry".

 

2-What's your problem?Idc if the OP reads it or not,its their own freedom to read it or not and I respect it in both cases.

What's your problem?If the OP himself probably understood my point and didn't think of it as offensive or ignorant as you are trying to point out???

(Note:I could say why are you butthurt?but I will keep it clean and not insult you like how you insulted me and called me "ignorant")

 

However,I am not interested to read what you wrote because,you didn't show respect at first place.

 

At least,I showed the OP respect in one way or another regardless of me reading his whole text or not.

So again,what's your problem?Was that line  directed to you or the OP?

[Spiritwarrior]

I'm one of many casual gamers. Sadly some MMOs are leaning towards pro gamers with their livestreams and their tournaments. Not all game developers I feel take these kinds of gamers into account when implementing events into the game, or improving PvP and PvE, and should strive hard toward balancing the game environment for both gamers.

[Oxygen]

1 hour ago, Lacy said:

 

Some of you though, ignored what I said, and judged my words as nothing more than a "Gimme all the best gear in one week!" complaint.

Not me..I understand what you are trying to say since first post and I kinda agree with it.

Problem is it contradicts with most free MMORPGs' trends and mentality nowadays..They have short term mentality so they end up making games grindier and grindier to bore out those with the potential to pay more and milk them for more cash.

Unfortunately,it does give them good profit in short term too but it is very bad for long term hence it sadly kills the game over time when they go with that trend.

I hope they don't delve deeper in the grindy trend..It's within reason till now,imo but making it more grindy than this in the future would be sad.

[Mighty]

Just to add to the topic:

The MMORPG I liked the most was Guild Wars.

I've spent several hundred hours there, played every expansion, leveled a char of each class, payed for microtransactions, etc.

 

The grind in that game?

We'd reach max level without before even playing through half the storyline from the first campaign. Expansions didn't increase the level cap.

We'd be able to get max level gear at the middle of the first campaign. Expansions didn't introduce new gear.

Max gear costed 7 platinum (In-Game currency). I made ~60 Platinum in 2 hours of gameplay.

You wanted to PvP? PvP was balanced, and you could create a NEW character, already at MAX level and with all skills but which could only PvP

Still, I spent more time and money there than on any other game.

Why? Because I could do what I enjoyed there, what I found fun, instead of grinding quests that I don't find fun

 

What do I do here?

Take dozens of hours to reach max level.

Take hundreds of hours grinding to reach max gear.

Don't get to reach max gear because a new patch comes out and increases gear level.

Do the same dailies which I don't find fun over and over because those are the ones who help me gear up faster (faction dailies).

Do old dailies over and over because there's no way to progress gear on my alts without farming older dungeons.

I don't pay for this game because I feel it would be a waste because I think I'll stop playing it sooner than later.

 

 

My point is:

Let me actually do what I find fun and enjoyable and I'll pay you

Trying out each char, both on max level PvE and PvP before deciding on a main (to do this I need to get every char to 50, get all Hongmoon skills, get at least True Pirate.......)

Trying to solo/duo the hardest dungeons (It takes 10k+ gold to get max gear, how am I supposed to get max gear to try to solo dungeons making 30/40g a day?)

 

 

I'll do the grinding

I'll grind 2 hours per day

But don't make a person who grinds 2 hours per day take an year to get geared up....

[Lacy]

37 minutes ago, Oxygen said:

Not me..I understand what you are trying to say since first post and I kinda agree with it.

Problem is it contradicts with most free MMORPGs' trends and mentality nowadays..They have short term mentality so they end up making games grindier and grindier to bore out those with the potential to pay more and milk them for more cash.

Unfortunately,it does give them good profit in short term too but it is very bad for long term hence it sadly kills the game over time when they go with that trend.

I hope they don't delve deeper in the grindy trend..It's within reason till now,imo but making it more grindy than this in the future would be sad.

I have to admit when I read the first part of your post I was a bit annoyed (not in the mood to read my post but still you decide to comment on it), but after reading the rest I was fine with what you said.  No worries.  You are right about the way the industry has been operating and that it is considered the norm.  I harshly criticize their way of doing things, however.

 

One thing that you wrote that hit a note with me and I agree with is that the company takes a reputation hit for putting out such garbage over and over (in this case, they took something wonderful, simply stellar (combat, gliding, some of the art is beautiful or sexy, though most is too gaudy for my taste, fantastic animation, music), and ruined it with their greed, horrible voice acting/translation/localization and horrible game design).  Personally, I am done with NCSoft and their affiliates.  I consider them to be one of the biggest disappointments in the entire industry for their unethical business practices, greediness, laziness, and horrible game design (I won't tolerate this with any company so it makes no difference if other companies do the same. I'll do no business with them either).  Unless I see rumors of drastic changes in the way they do business and handle their game design, I will look the other way no matter what they release in the future.

 

A friend says, "Hey a new game is coming out!"

I say, "Who's the developer/producer?"

A friend says, "Bloodlust and NCSoft" (or one of their affiliates)

I say, "Not interested."