AttacKat

Too all those LAME high AP dungeon requests ...

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Reyfer   

You know, I see some replies on this thread trying to rationalize that "low AP means lack of knowledge of the dungeon", and then I think.....how is a player supposed to acquier knowledge of the dungeon, if he/she is rejected from parties all the time?

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fruitie   
32 minutes ago, NoeyJD said:

High AP means:

 

-Faster Runs

-Higher sucessful rate

-Experienced

 

now shut up

It sounds like someone struck a nerve. I wonder why :D.

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NoeyJD   
21 minutes ago, fruitie said:

It sounds like someone struck a nerve. I wonder why :D.

but that are the reasons....

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JayP   

TLDR Summary of thread...

 

Low geared people are tired of not getting into 500+ ap fast dungeon runs to get carried but don't want to state it like that and instead come up with dumb arguments to hide their belly aching.  Summary of my thoughts:

 

1)  You don't NEED to join these groups, stop making people play exactly like you think they should be

2)  Geared players have already learned the fights and done the work to gear up, now they want fast/successful runs, stop blaming them for it.

3)  Yes 500+ AP isn't needed for content but its the best proxy we have for determining that people know and have done the fights, is it perfect no but it generally works.

4)  Create your own no AP requirement group and teach new players instead of complaining that not everyone likes to teach and hand hold people like you

5)  PUG's aren't the best place for new players to learn the 4-man fights, guilds and youtube videos are better, you shouldn't force other players to teach and hold your hand.

 

Edited by JayP

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Reaper00   
1 hour ago, Reyfer said:

You know, I see some replies on this thread trying to rationalize that "low AP means lack of knowledge of the dungeon", and then I think.....how is a player supposed to acquier knowledge of the dungeon, if he/she is rejected from parties all the time?

Yup. It's one of those great mysteries of life.

 

The irony is that most of the people defending this gear elitism thing will be back on the forums in a few months time complaining about the lack of geared/knowledgable people to run dungeons with, blissfully ignorant of the fact that it's a problem that they helped to create themselves.

 

While I agree there is a minimum group total AP required to clear dungeons asking for things like 500+ AP is just plain laziness. AP is no indicator of how good someone is, unless there is a dungeon with a mechanic which involves swiping your credit card.

 

Out of curiosity I joined one of these 500+ AP 6 man yeti groups yesterday to see what they were like and even though everyone in the group was over 510 AP, 3 people still left the group because there was no warlock to give them the soulburn buff. Never laughed so hard in my life!

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1 hour ago, JayP said:

TLDR Summary of thread...

 

Low geared people are tired of not getting into 500+ ap fast dungeon runs to get carried but don't want to state it like that and instead come up with dumb arguments to hide their belly aching.  Summary of my thoughts:

 

1)  You don't NEED to join these groups, stop making people play exactly like you think they should be

2)  Geared players have already learned the fights and done the work to gear up, now they want fast/successful runs, stop blaming them for it.

3)  Yes 500+ AP isn't needed for content but its the best proxy we have for determining that people know and have done the fights, is it perfect no but it generally works.

4)  Create your own no AP requirement group and teach new players instead of complaining that not everyone likes to teach and hand hold people like you

5)  PUG's aren't the best place for new players to learn the 4-man fights, guilds and youtube videos are better, you shouldn't force other players to teach and hold your hand.

 

Now this would be a truly reasonable post provided this was a game like wow or some other where there's gear progression you need to go through in order to wind up in higher end dungeons. How about this:

 

1) Correct. You don't need to join these groups.

 

2) False. You can (and I often see) people reach over 500 AP with gear that was fully obtainable before 50 cap even launched, let alone setting foot into any of the new purple dungeons. This is a dangerous assumption on this game as generally the source of our gear is far below the level of content we're doing. 

 

3) Again, due to the nature of how gear works on this game this is a false premise. You don't need to have any experience whatsoever to get 500+ AP, nor in my various experiences pugging does it indicate that a player is good or bad, I wish it did. 

 

4) You're assuming that anyone who doesn't have over 500 ap has no experience and wants to be taught and carried. 

 

5) Again, assumption that because someone doesn't have over 500 ap they know nothing. Just as having over 500+ ap doesn't mean that you've even seen the inside of a 50 cap purple dungeon, not having 500+ ap doesn't mean that someone has no experience and is wanting to be carried and taught. 

 

Alot of the mindset that I see here stems from other games with more gated vertical progression, i.e you cannot enter one dungeon and get x gear until you've completed the very previous tier of dungeon and the easier version of the current dungeon. However, just because someone was able to clear bloodshade/naryu and obtain their pirate weapon and accessories (all you need to hit 500+ ap with a soul) doesn't automatically make them an expert on the new content. There's also fallacies regarding the DPS gap between players with better gear (it isn't nearly as big as people think it is). 

 

If anything you should be going by how many runs someone has done as an indicator instead of their AP. You say you have no way of checking to see and AP is the indicator but you could always... link the achievement? It'll say exactly how many times you completed a run. Chances are if someone has a ton of runs done (20-30+) they're more competent than someone with 500+ ap who barely had 10 done and may very well have been carried by their gear and skilled players of that level of gear. If you didn't know how you can hold control and left click on the achievement icon to link your achievement to the chat. There is no way to fake it either so anything someone links is their actual achievement.

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Riata   
30 minutes ago, Enhance said:

Hey guys, I can finally join Tomb of Exiles!

 

qcHohzw.jpg

Nope... Sorry but you need 120% accuracy  ...

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AttacKat   
4 hours ago, NoeyJD said:

High AP means:

 

-Faster Runs

-Higher sucessful rate

-Experienced

 

now shut up

Really now? So the guy that sold $500 worth NCoins and geared himself to 550AP over night, is more skilled then someone farming his items at 375 AP? Please show proof that 500AP = experience.

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Yohana   
57 minutes ago, Enhance said:

Hey guys, I can finally join Tomb of Exiles!

 

qcHohzw.jpg

need more acc, hp and ap for tomb lvl50 probab instance bosses hp ill be more high than KR and JP BnS, ur crit chance is very good o/

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Yohana   
Just now, Enhance said:

Tomb of Exiles is level 35 HM6 dungeon :D

u can one shot boss using legendary FM skill in lvl36 xD

 

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Enhance   
1 minute ago, Yohana said:

need more acc, hp and ap for tomb lvl50 probab instance bosses hp ill be more high than KR and JP BnS, ur crit chance is very good o/

Tomb of Exiles is level 35 HM6 dungeon :D

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Shirou   
On 2016/4/4 at 1:49 AM, Puppy Pie said:

I think the whole point went right over your head lol, because you missed it by a mile XD

 

lets say we have two crappy crappy players now one has a very low low AP rating while the other crappy player has a high AP rating.

Now keeping in mind that both players are equally crappy which will do more damage while it's alive, also which will have better def/hp on there gear to help keep this crappy person alive? Higher AP=better survivability (meaning because their gear is higher it also comes with better def stats)

 

I personally really do not care about what you can do if your a great player with low AP than good for you I have a few in my clan that I run with as well, but if you are trying to make a party with random people that you have NO IDEA about than you most likely want to go with the higher AP person, because their gear is going to help them to survive a little longer. (when you pug assume everyone sucks at their class)

Higher def/hp

You already lost all the respect with that line.

If I go with randoms, I ask them before if they know or is their first time in dungeon. If it is, then I will just explain and everything will go well.

Myself since I got potatoass laptop I ain't that ahead with the gear. But what it saves me? The fact that I know the dungeons.

Explain instead of getting mad, is the key. But yeh.

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23 hours ago, Yamyatos said:

I agree with both sides to be honest:

1. AP requirements are not a bad thing. You just wont beat yeti for example if most players in your group have true profane with infernal accessories. Making for frustrating runs.. 

2. AP requirements like 500+ shouldnt exist. I'd agree with 400+ for normal stuff and maybe 450 for yeti since i personally find the enrage timer much harder, but other than that i dont think that there is a reason for high AP requirements - unless you are trying to do speedruns. But in that case you most likely dont use random people anyway.

3. Everybody should be able to reach ~400 AP with decent gear that does not even cost a lot. So some AP requirements to sort out the really trashy gear are not really unfair even to casual players, just the insanely high ones.

 

Edit: If somebody says 400 AP is unreasonable, that's still basically true profane with infernal assecories, the stuff from the story til 50 and a 25 AP gem. So it's really basic gear. And it makes the runs way more fluid than having people with 280-350 on your run.

I had 380 attack at 49 with true profane 10 and a sparkling pentagonal attack diamond (+25) on my warlock. I believe at 50 that value went up to 390 something. still it would be around 370 without the gem with just ur true profane weapon and infernal accessories. also some other classes have lower base attack values then warlock and would be lower still. 400 is not a sure fire result from hitting true profane.

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Fyk0   

If you have high, around 500 AP would you wanna run with equal geared people for very fast runs or with 5 others with scale of 350 to 500 where chance of getting other 500's is very low?

 

Thought so.

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I don't understand why so many people are still undergeared. You had a lot of time to save up before the 50 content even launched.  Unless you just started the game or you're using a alt but everyone's main should be at least over 500 ap by now. Seeing how easy it is to make gold in 50 content, 50+ gold per day, 30 from dallies, selling items and ornament easily gives over 50g per day with just one character.

Edited by Exposing Hackers

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Yamyatos   
58 minutes ago, Richard Rahl said:

I had 380 attack at 49 with true profane 10 and a sparkling pentagonal attack diamond (+25) on my warlock. I believe at 50 that value went up to 390 something. still it would be around 370 without the gem with just ur true profane weapon and infernal accessories. also some other classes have lower base attack values then warlock and would be lower still. 400 is not a sure fire result from hitting true profane.

My warlock is at 375 exactly and only has true profane with infernal accessories and the drops from story - plus a python neclace. So, ok, i lied xD It's one dungeon drop.. but that doesnt change the fact that it's basically doable in no time if you got profane (which itself is quite fast achieveable)^^

 

Edit: Oh and of course for the above to make any sense: i dont have any ap gems on my wl.

Edited by Yamyatos

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56 minutes ago, Exposing Hackers said:

I don't understand why so many people are still undergeared. You had a lot of time to save up before the 50 content even launched.  Unless you just started the game or you're using a alt but everyone's main should be at least over 500 ap by now. Seeing how easy it is to make gold in 50 content, 50+ gold per day, 30 from dallies, selling items and ornament easily gives over 50g per day with just one character.

Take the post below yours, now tell me you can do what you do (regardless if that player has the same amount of time in a day to play) to earn that amount of money in a similar timescale in that gear. Thought so.

 

People don't all start the game at the same time, with the same amount of time to play daily, same prior knowledge/experience, same skill level, same speed reactions/connection/PC, same attention span, same tolerance level and so on and so forth.

 

Lets face it, even the class you chose to start the game with can heavily influence how quickly/easily you progress.

Edited by Bruce Chi

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13 minutes ago, Bruce Chi said:

Take the post below yours, now tell me you can do what you do (regardless if that player has the same amount of time in a day to play) to earn that amount of money in a similar timescale in that gear. Thought so.

 

People don't all start the game at the same time, with the same amount of time to play daily, same prior knowledge/experience, same skill level, same speed reactions/connection/PC, same attention span, same tolerance level and so on and so forth.

 

Lets face it, even the class you chose to start the game with can heavily influence how quickly/easily you progress.

Well Bruce, if a player started only 2 weeks ago than of course he won't be able to be over 500 ap gear or do heroic. Thats reasonable and is in every game so whats the problem? It also doesn't take a lot of time, it certainly doesn't take all day to get good gold. One of my casual friend only plays for 4 hours a day and he can earn nearly 50g with ornament drop so being casual isn't the problem. People need to earn their way to the top like everyone else.

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Toragos   

Let me ask all of you when the time comes, when game is nearly dead because of the new update and various problems that still is there(its really quiet around some towns in the most populated servers, most people cant progress fast enough when they are casual players, dragon certificate cant be dropped in the 45's anymore duo to the bot problems i see less bots in arena but i see less new players even old players are not online, lost 80% of friends from this update, so thank you) do you then still consider run with 600 + ap or are you still going to play the game and have fun alone. DO you want a bigger player base or a dead game.

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10 minutes ago, Toragos said:

Let me ask all of you when the time comes, when game is nearly dead because of the new update and various problems that still is there(its really quiet around some towns in the most populated servers, most people cant progress fast enough when they are casual players, dragon certificate cant be dropped in the 45's anymore duo to the bot problems i see less bots in arena but i see less new players even old players are not online, lost 80% of friends from this update, so thank you) do you then still consider run with 600 + ap or are you still going to play the game and have fun alone. DO you want a bigger player base or a dead game.

New updates would actually bring players back in, especially most of those that are looking forward to the story acts. Yes it's true that there are many undergear players which is why Ncsoft puts both heroic and non heroic dungeons out. Heroic are for 500ap+ while non heroic are for 499-ap so both hardcore and casual can still do dungeons.

 

Same thing would happen with another new update after this one where 600ap+ would do the new heroic dungeons while 599ap-would do the new non heroic dungeons. So everyone always have things to do.

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35 minutes ago, Exposing Hackers said:

Well Bruce, if a player started only 2 weeks ago than of course he won't be able to be over 500 ap gear or do heroic. Thats reasonable and is in every game so whats the problem? It also doesn't take a lot of time, it certainly doesn't take all day to get good gold. One of my casual friend only plays for 4 hours a day and he can earn nearly 50g with ornament drop so being casual isn't the problem. People need to earn their way to the top like everyone else.

I get that, and gladly you do too. My point is many come into these threads with the attitude of "easy for me, should be for you" which doesn't help anyone. My main concern is that due to several factors; it has become increasingly difficult for people to get anywhere (especially those in pre-siren), which turns people away.

 

 

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Lawfer   

its not about ap, 400+ ap its fine all you need to know are the boss mechanics ,also good crit and def are important some people still dont understand how to play a mmorpg, prolly they're under 20 years old not experienced.

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The thing is most high attack power people have invested much more time and effort into the game, so it really is kind of an indicator of skill. At least they tend to do better than the average noob who refused to upgrade past true profane. Not to mention I've seen people as low as 267 trying to do Yeti. That is simply not acceptable. People want fast clears and to avoid the player lottery since these dungeons apparently have no entry requirements.  

Edited by DosonTheGreat

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