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Ranking up feels like the rest of the game - RNG


Vecejj

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I asked some fellow FM's about ways to counter Sin, since that's who I struggle against (mainly the ones who stall for timer to run out) and I assumed they fought plenty of them, won and ranked up... I was wrong. They pretty much told me they just kept playing game after game until facing enough classes which favoured them to the point where they ranked up.

 

This is exactly how PvP feels to me, I went from 1700-1895 on a win streak facing only Summoners, BD and WL. Then I hit a wall of Sins and 1 kfm bringing me back down to 1795, if I didn't hit that wall of X class I could easily be a much higher rank. this is where the issue lies. The rank you achieve feels purely RNG based depending on the class you get, you should feel like you have an equal chance vs any class but this is not the case since every class has 1-2 much harder counters.

 

For example a BM could do very well against every class, reach 1895 or 2095 then hit a wall of scummoners, we all know BM vs Scummoner is one the toughest matchups atm, he could beat every other class multiple times but hit the wall of the one hard counter preventing him from ranking up despite how well he is doing in arena. This was the case for me on my FM, I did so well and learnt a lot from winning / losing but it got to the point where I was relying on luck not to be faced vs such a tough counter.

 

Obviously skill plays a big role in advancing in rank but as it stands skill =/= luck. If the game decides to throw you against your best matchups, you rank up, if it decides to throw you against your worst match up you rank down, in my case it just throws me constantly at the only class I feel like I have very slim chances of beating, that's why it all feels like a luck of the draw when it comes to 1v1.

 

This all comes from an underlying balance issue between all the classes which really needs to be looked at, I enjoy facing WL on my FM so much because it's pretty much a guaranteed win for me no matter how good that WL is, this should not be the case at all! classes shouldn't counter other classes to such an extent, all those WL's I face could be having the exact issue with me VS sins just facing constant walls of FM.

 

Due to all of the above I've decided to quit doing 1v1 and only do tag for the zen beans, It's got the point where I don't feel like I can improve much more vs Sins, I've tried 200% every time I face them as well as watched countless video guides, streamers, asked other Fm's for tips too. 

 

p.s this is not a sin complaint thread, I do personally think they are way overtuned ATM but that's for another time xD

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this is funny coz as a sin...

I encountered 1 or 2 fms earlier this noon and they fked up my win streak kept takin me out of stealth >.>

guess I'm an average/below average sin but I still got lots to learn :c

 

as for rank up feels like rng I totally get ya coz that's how I felt with my fm and kfm when tried hit gold and then tried hit the next rank on my kfm and kept getting kfms and even 1 ubericly strong destro that kept beatin d sh*t outa me when I was 10-20 points from rankup these btches kept beatin me taking me 15 and higher points from me and I ended up nearly losing my gold rank and I stopped bother with arena for a while...

like I said to my friend guess I'll always be a goldie and nothing more :c
+in tag match I can't even get into gold ... I kept losing when was 10-20 points from it..... which just frustrated me more :s

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10 minutes ago, 896871_1452550625 said:

I think you need to review and see what you are doing wrong here. FM is one of Sin's most difficult matchups..z

I think you are implying to use the ice skill (Z) - Cold Snap , as a FM this is the only skill that allows me to keep Assassins out of stealth more often since most people don't know how to get out of its AoE, but I do understand the OPs point because I was at 1897 rank , I stopped pvping for a while then said let me try get to Platinum to get more Soulstones, however... by RNG/luck I hit a wall of Destroyers and Blade Masters and i got ranked down, also playing against other FMs is a nightmare because its just a battle of who can cast the fastest + stun lock the fastest and who has better ping. People say FM is a good pvp class right now but I beg to differ , looking at the Hongmoon skills for our ice skills especially RMB - Frost Palm and Impact. THAT is when FMs will be better matched to other classes.

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If you lose to your hardcounter in Gold ranks then you are only not good enough. To be honest, in Gold there arent many good players, if they are stuck there, which means they are unskillful. It is fairly harder to play against a counter but not impossible to win in lower ranks. As the Gold KFM I was back then I fought my way through a wall of assassins, outplaying every single one of them and having a 80% winrate against them. I got to Plat pretty quick. You can address the matchup issue once you reach Diamond. But honestly... If you lose to Gold Sins as FM (who counters Sin) then it is simply your lack of skill and not the counter... and before you call me out as the Silver Scummoner player I am, be aware that I am also Plat on KFM, almost Diamond on Destroyer and Gold on every other class except Sum, because it is a boring class.

TL;DR: I suggest you to learn how to play matchups, because it is the only thing you can do.

-Ra9eQuit

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1 hour ago, Ra9eQuit said:

If you lose to your hardcounter in Gold ranks then you are only not good enough. To be honest, in Gold there arent many good players, if they are stuck there, which means they are unskillful. It is fairly harder to play against a counter but not impossible to win in lower ranks. As the Gold KFM I was back then I fought my way through a wall of assassins, outplaying every single one of them and having a 80% winrate against them. I got to Plat pretty quick. You can address the matchup issue once you reach Diamond. But honestly... If you lose to Gold Sins as FM (who counters Sin) then it is simply your lack of skill and not the counter... and before you call me out as the Silver Scummoner player I am, be aware that I am also Plat on KFM, almost Diamond on Destroyer and Gold on every other class except Sum, because it is a boring class.

TL;DR: I suggest you to learn how to play matchups, because it is the only thing you can do.

-Ra9eQuit

You should also address the factor of ms to the server eh, imo.

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I think the ideas of class balance / counters and the PVP dueling system are getting mixed together...  Originally I liked what the author had to say, but the more I read it turned into the constant idea that some classes are better than others.

 

Anyways, I too experience this wall, and its purely class, I bounce between 1950 and 1850 all day because once I hit 1950, sin sin sin sin sin all in a row (my ultimate counter).  It is a bit frustrating going through this, but, I think thats what makes getting diamond so difficult (and the pay out so much better).

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12 hours ago, Kam Bo said:

I think the ideas of class balance / counters and the PVP dueling system are getting mixed together...  Originally I liked what the author had to say, but the more I read it turned into the constant idea that some classes are better than others.

 

Anyways, I too experience this wall, and its purely class, I bounce between 1950 and 1850 all day because once I hit 1950, sin sin sin sin sin all in a row (my ultimate counter).  It is a bit frustrating going through this, but, I think thats what makes getting diamond so difficult (and the pay out so much better).

This is what I'm getting at though, it doesn't feel like you have an equal chance vs every class and if you hit a wall of X class you just cannot rank up despite beating every other class. Summoner should not counter BM so much harder than any other class, Sin shouldn't counter KFM so hard and so on. It makes you feel like you're depending 50% on luck to not be thrown into countless matches with X class so you can rank up, this is why it feels very RNG based. 

 

It should be quality over quantity, you beat specific classes and hit X rank but atm it feels like quantity over quality where you just have to queue queue and queue until you face enough non hard counters to actually rank up.  

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I completely quit 1v1 once I got diamond a second time. The first time, I got ranked down to the 1900's because of a wall of counter classes and cheaters. The only way I got back up was a bunch of summoners, FM, and BD. To be honest, you can just close your client and not lose rank points when you think you'll lose to a counter class if you want to climb up 1v1, then go to tag like everyone else.

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It's the same in most ranking-based games, no? Bad teammates, smurfs, only meeting high rank players etc. Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't. If you can't eventually climb to a certain rank and push past bad circumstances, it just means you don't belong in that rank. You can have your peak at 1900, but it doesn't mean you actually are a plat level player.

 

I don't know how'd you go about "fixing" this. Most ranking/matchmaking systems are lackluster in one way or another.

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If you keep seeing the exact rank you get after every fight, or the best rank you ever reached, as you're actual true rank, then yea it's rng. consider a range of +50 / -50 based on your last 20 games for example, and see how rng is gone. I reached diamond 3 times on my bm in eu, still never considered myself a diamond player, i'm still a ~2040-2060 player. 

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45 minutes ago, Kleia said:

If you keep seeing the exact rank you get after every fight, or the best rank you ever reached, as you're actual true rank, then yea it's rng. consider a range of +50 / -50 based on your last 20 games for example, and see how rng is gone. I reached diamond 3 times on my bm in eu, still never considered myself a diamond player, i'm still a ~2040-2060 player. 

My point is that every class has a 60/40 or 70/30 counter class, like Fm vs BM and it shouldn't be like this. At the end of the day someone who plays exactly the same as you can reach plat / diamond facing only 50/50 classes then you can never reach plat / diamond because you face that extremely strong counter to your class. I know this is how many games work but in this game it feels so much more rng based, if I didn't face a wall of sins every time I try to rank up I would be a much higher rank because I know I can do well or have a decent chance vs every other class.

 

Take 2 FMs, put one against every class except BM, then take the other FM and put him against every class + BM and the rank difference will be so different.

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6 minutes ago, Kleia said:

i get up point. still, my point is that rng doesn't exist in mid to long term. fm never facing bm doesn't exist. 

But when they do they are at an immediate disadvantage, like BM vs summoner, KFM vs sin etc. that's what makes ranking up feel very rng.

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