Devinator00

NCSoft please no DPS meters. Dont need more elitism

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I know your implementing DPS meters in other versions of the game but pls do not bring them over here. We already have enough elitists in this game, and now we have to worry about how much dps being required to join a good group? no no no. Sorry but i dont like that idea. Having come from WoW where all people ever look at is dps meters, i can tell you its a really really bad idea and all it does is breed a hostile environment where people with low dps are removed from a group. No ty

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Taemek   

Yes please, we do need it because I am sick of speculation about how I should build to optimise my class, I want to get the most out of it and the only way I can confirm what build does the most for me is a DPS meter.

 

As for your elitism theory, I couldn't careless how you build you character, you are free to do what you want, how you want.

 

Thank you.

Edited by Taemek

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I personally can't wait until they put these meters in. It'll get rid of a lot of the stupid gear requirements running rampant as well as discount some truly horrible builds (looking at you ice FMs (sorry)). The way I see it, if you belong in the tougher content and can hold your own it'll show and if you're merely masking lack of skill with your stats or claiming you're doing more than you are with less gear it'll show. I see it as a good thing for everyone in this game, though I'm normally opposed to meters. It will help get rid of some of the elitism not promote it. 

Edited by lnvisibleOne

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Negaimu   
2 minutes ago, lnvisibleOne said:

I personally can't wait until they put these meters in. It'll get rid of a lot of the stupid gear requirements running rampant as well as discount some truly horrible builds (looking at you ice FMs (sorry)). The way I see it, if you belong in the tougher content and can hold your own it'll show and if you're merely masking lack of skill with your stats or claiming you're doing more than you are with less gear it'll show. I see it as a good thing for everyone in this game, though I'm normally opposed to meters. It will help get rid of some of the elitism not promote it. 

This is the truth. There are way more people lying about their ability than there are genuine good people acting high & mighty.

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Covet   

I would love them. 

It would help out on me maximizing my damage output. It would let me know if throwing extra dragonblaze before buff wears off is worth it for reduced meteor cooldown. I don't know and it's all guesswork right now. Do I only use it once every 12 seconds? Or should I be using it even more as it hits harder then blazing beam?

 

DPS meters would really let me know and help me improve.

 

As for other people. I could care less what your dps is. I know it's crap because you are worried about dps meters. If I use F8 I don't need dps meters to know if you are terrible. It would be evident in the way you play, looking at uptime on boss and seeing your abilities being used. DPS meter would only confirm with numbers what I (and many) already know. 

 

And most "elitist" usually play in premade groups and don't really care about F8 grouping. If some "elitist" is being a douche in F8, just simply ignore them. F8 is there to play however you want. 

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Hatsunya   
1 hour ago, Devinator00 said:

I know your implementing DPS meters in other versions of the game but pls do not bring them over here. We already have enough elitists in this game, and now we have to worry about how much dps being required to join a good group? no no no. Sorry but i dont like that idea. Having come from WoW where all people ever look at is dps meters, i can tell you its a really really bad idea and all it does is breed a hostile environment where people with low dps are removed from a group. No ty

And yet another crybaby who has to cry over nothing. Lets get something straight its not dps meters fault. With your logic you want to punish players who like to minmax and find most optimal way to play.

Jerks will be jerks with or without dps meter so why punish players who want it?

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KzE   

So now you guys are complaining about a korean TEST SERVER features?

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VRock   

well you can't get kicked in the dungeon. so who cares, right? just make the elite rage lol

Edited by VRock

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Elites can leave and let you fight alone. I would prefer having suggestion in each dungeon which AP would be good there but not like "you cannot enter dungeon if you don't have this much". That is because it would be nice to know if I can be use to the team without being carried through the dungeons.

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5 minutes ago, VRock said:

well you can't get kicked in the dungeon. so who cares, right? just make the elite rage lol

Yeah man, better that mommy and daddy make the other kids play with you than you doing something to make the other kids want to play with you.  Good way to live.

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VRock   
29 minutes ago, Lunakitty said:

Elites can leave and let you fight alone. I would prefer having suggestion in each dungeon which AP would be good there but not like "you cannot enter dungeon if you don't have this much". That is because it would be nice to know if I can be use to the team without being carried through the dungeons.

and then you can recruit casual/average players and do the dungeon without stress.

Edited by VRock

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Evechan   

What is all this garb....talking ? for real ? with dps meter carebears with 10ms will complain about players with 200ms dps, get out, ppl asking 470/480 for yeti 6man lolololol, noobs without hability will aways search for more dps to beat dungeons not with hability, but with dps race, aways noobs.

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Enhance   
9 hours ago, lnvisibleOne said:

ds (looking at you ice FMs (sorry)). 

And I'm looking at you fire fms. >:c

Personally I can't wait for dps meters to finally settle for myself if my "feelings" about dps in those builds are true or not.

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Evechan   

If u don't even know if u are doing great or not, maybe u should unnistal game, is insane and idiot how some ppl say ''i need dps meter to know if i'm doing very well'' like, for real ? i'm a fm with 150/200ms (sometimes less sometimes more) and ofc the game make me do less dmg than fm with 10/50 ping, but ik i'm doing well, if u need dps meter to know it, u are just bad and dps meter will not fix how bad u are.

Edited by Evechan

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CycLee   

actually i like the idea of a dps meter - but for me a personal one serves my needs. i want to know if some slight variations really result in a better outcome or weaken me - my "feeling" is not a very acurate measurement.

 

I played several years WoW before i'd quit and the damagemeters are not the root of all evil. Sure some ppl who simply can't read the data will start fights over it but those guys will do that even without such a tool because they believe in their own infallibility.

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Oxygen   

I find AP requirement not suitable for those who take up the role of "Tank"simply because,all what a tank needs is good defensive stats (Eva,hp,defense etc) and threat stat that can be found on some accessories and can be enhanced by certain skills..Having stacked enough threat stat and knowing which skill to use to keep threat up should make up for the lower damage they might have.

Hence,judging that they won't be efficient because,their DPS is low on damage meter won't be fair either because,their role is to tank not to DPS and if they can keep aggro 95% of time at least and not die easily then they have done their job pretty well.

Also if you tell me they will have to get higher AP through upgrades for more tanky stats along with AP,I will tell you no and you don't need to upgrade AP for more DPS stats either..Some accessories focus tanky stats more than other accessories and weapon (example:ring and belt) and some focus other DPS stats like Crit damage and Crit acc than AP..Oh and did I mention soulshields?Do Naryu soulshield and tanking ring a bell for you back then in 45 patch?Does the BSH,mushin,Naryu max crit soulshield mix ring a bell for you from 45 patch?

What use is AP if you have only 25%-35% crit chance because,your soulshield is bad? 

 

On the other hand,Judging DPS roles from DPS meter wouldn't be  fair either..You can't do good damage when you have aggro of some bosses because simply you tend to get abit more defensive and not go full offensive as long as you have the aggro hence decreasing your damage output so if you wanna judge their DPS,you gotta provide the suitable conditions to get accurate measures.

 

Some DPS classes just do DPS and thats it..Some contribute with DPS,CC,supportive skills (Example:warlock soulburn and AP or focus buff,FM divine veil and frost sheath etc) yet their overall usefulness is just measured by DPS?You find that fair?Ok GL killing harder bosses without CC,support skills nor tanks at all and with just bare DPS ..

 

To make it clear,DPS isn't the only measure of player efficiency,

AP isn't the only measure of efficient DPS (I can have meh AP but have great crit rate and crit damage etc).

 

Solution:

Normal DPS meter isn't enough so even DPS meter shouldn't be as basic as the idea most people get when I say DPS meter:

 

-DPS meter should show you number of normal,crits,missed attacks and not just damage dealt and your offensive stats compared to others.

-They should add a tank meter along with it where it would show damage received,amount of evaded,blocked attacks,amount of self heals,average threat generated per sec.

-They should also add a support meter as well:this one would be harder to apply but we can start off with amount of heals done to others then later it can include amount of stuns,dazes,knock downs and other forms of CCs done to enemies and in its final stages,it can include number of successful casts of support skills like successful frost sheath or soul burn.

-Final meter that can be added would be a total contribution meter:It would calculate total contribution of each party member based on the previous 3 meters.I understand this last meter is abit off limits and hard to be made but I am talking about a semi perfect model if you wanna measure efficiency of each party member fair and square.

 

This should show how every member truly contributed to the fight in %s and calculations so there would be no dispute.

Now elitists will have to look at the final meter (total contribution meter) if they wanna really measure the efficiency of other party members and they will eventually shut up.

 

I also saw someone somehow shunning frost FM on this post earlier *points at InvisibleOne*

 

I'd like to say that as far as I noticed,what fire has over frost FMs is higher burst (higher damage in short term in other words) but on long term,they both deal almost same damage because,frost is good at having sustained damage and is faster.Its like attack speed vs damage per hit.Higher damage per hit means it will do a higher burst at first but on long run higher attack speed will catch up and they will end up being almost on same level.

Its harder to do damage with frost than fire but not that frost fails hard at damage compared to fire..That's wrong!

If you don't understand frost build rotation well enough to do damage with it then please,don't come out with personal hypothesis about the build because,you failed to master it.

 

Example:when I did 5f mushin for first time,I did it with frost..I tried later with fire back then,I couldn't get it but could get it with frost again..I didn't assume fire fails at damage but I understood I am not as good at fire as I am with frost..In short,its a matter of tastes and everyone dig their own way to success.

 

Knowing when to use: (ice rain combo,Impact stage 4,some fire skills like meteor,inferno,gather fire orbs with LMB,frost fury and frost bomb) is key for frost  build.

While key to DPS with fire lies in animation cancel in combo LMB,RMB,2 or 1 (if you need burn) and spamming X,C,V whenever they are out of CD and its even easier to do dual dragon with fire since you are spamming LMB and RMB all time anyway..Sounds easier to use than frost,right?Do you get my point?

 

I will add that I find frost more reliable in many ways.

How?

1-It has more options like mobility vs damage.

2-it is more reliable,it can outlast tanks on many occasions because of the insane life steal from frost fury so you are less likely to die early..Yea dead=0 damage,you do remember that right?

3-It is more likely to offer more support to party than fire.(example:frost sheath,divine veil>>>Divine veil+frost sheath=any party member getting healed when attacked as long as they are in frost sheath).

4-Frost FMs don't fight over ember stacks. ^_-

 

Good frost FMs will use certain fire skills (fire C,meteor,meteors,stage 1 tier 3 blazing palm for faster fire orbs) to get full efficiency.

Good fire FMs will use certain frost skills (RMB is the best example,divine veil,frost sheath,frost armor,frost tornado,frost Z) to get full efficiency.

 

And if you still don't get my point then I will give you one last example:

Most people probably call BM most weak class in pvp as far as I noticed..Well,I will tell you,I found BMs in arena tag who were more bossy than KFMs and destroyers,they could simply beat every class they faced (even summoners and assassins and KFMs),the 3 people vs us by themselves even when me and the third person could barely handle 1 of the team vs us..

Only someone who truly masters something will truly understand how to criticize it.

That means those many people who call BM weak is because,BM is harder than almost all other classes to master specially in PVP bit not necessarily the worst and that's by confession of some and not just my words.

 

Edited by Oxygen

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Lexter   

I have not realy high DPS in dungeons, good, but not highest... Why? I always try grip bosses and let others do free damage. So iam bad and i will be kicked now. *cricket* this. I know this shit from other MMOs.

Edited by Lexter

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Agreed.  No good can come out of it.

 

If what we have to go on is any indication, the PVE content (barring 4 mans) is not meant to be difficult.

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Never had problems with damage meters (and by damage meters, I mean all kind of meters. Heal, Health Loss, DOT, HOT etc). Sure, we made our fair share of fun of those who lacked in the ePen department, but as long as the dungeon was getting finished, it was fine. And if you don't get to finish the dungeon you can acutally analyse who or what was what was the problem. If a player who is not tanking keeps getting destroyed, needs to heal up while doing no damage (which may or may not be related) and the dungeon fails, that guy needs either instructions or a replacement. There is nothing wrong in telling a bad player he is bad. The only people who have a problem with that are those who usually stand on the scolded side.

Sure, elitism is bad. But not everything about optimising is elitism. Some is just the aim to improve.

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Drunkie   
1 hour ago, Evechan said:

If u don't even know if u are doing great or not, maybe u should unnistal game, is insane and idiot how some ppl say ''i need dps meter to know if i'm doing very well'' like, for real ? i'm a fm with 150/200ms (sometimes less sometimes more) and ofc the game make me do less dmg than fm with 10/50 ping, but ik i'm doing well, if u need dps meter to know it, u are just bad and dps meter will not fix how bad u are.

You are making no sense.
What people want a dps meter for is not to know if they're doing well, it's for testing what is best and what will make them do more damage. As of right now we can only assume, but with a dps meter we would know FOR SURE what is the best to use.

I don't see anything wrong with people trying to perfect their gear/dps.

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Evechan   
2 minutes ago, Drunkie said:

You are making no sense.
What people want a dps meter for is not to know if they're doing well, it's for testing what is best and what will make them do more damage. As of right now we can only assume, but with a dps meter we would know FOR SURE what is the best to use.

I don't see anything wrong with people trying to perfect their gear/dps.

You allr don't know which combo is the best for your class ? srsrly ? if u don't, well, i think dps meter can't help you lol

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Drunkie   
4 minutes ago, Evechan said:

You allr don't know which combo is the best for your class ? srsrly ? if u don't, well, i think dps meter can't help you lol

What you are failing to understand is that people want to know what is the best GEAR for dps. Atm people have mixed opinions about high crit, high crit damage, pierce and stuff. I've came from TERA and dps meters completely changed the metagame, making people understand more about how they should be building their gear.

Just because you think you're doing great, doesn't mean you can't do better. Stop acting like you're superior and know about everything and try to understand what people are saying instead of criticizing what you're failing to assimilate.

Edited by Drunkie
how2englando

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NoeyJD   
1 hour ago, Oxygen said:

I find AP requirement not suitable for those who take up the role of "Tank"simply because,all what a tank needs is good defensive stats (Eva,hp,defense etc) and threat stat that can be found on some accessories and can be enhanced by certain skills..Having stacked enough threat stat and knowing which skill to use to keep threat up should make up for the lower damage they might have.

Hence,judging that they won't be efficient because,their DPS is low on damage meter won't be fair either because,their role is to tank not to DPS and if they can keep aggro 95% of time at least and not die easily then they have done their job pretty well.

Also if you tell me they will have to get higher AP through upgrades for more tanky stats along with AP,I will tell you no and you don't need to upgrade AP for more DPS stats either..Some accessories focus tanky stats more than other accessories and weapon (example:ring and belt) and some focus other DPS stats like Crit damage and Crit acc than AP..Oh and did I mention soulshields?Do Naryu soulshield and tanking ring a bell for you back then in 45 patch?Does the BSH,mushin,Naryu max crit soulshield mix ring a bell for you from 45 patch?

What use is AP if you have only 25%-35% crit chance because,your soulshield is bad? 

 

On the other hand,Judging DPS roles from DPS meter wouldn't be  fair either..You can't do good damage when you have aggro of some bosses because simply you tend to get abit more defensive and not go full offensive as long as you have the aggro hence decreasing your damage output so if you wanna judge their DPS,you gotta provide the suitable conditions to get accurate measures.

 

Some DPS classes just do DPS and thats it..Some contribute with DPS,CC,supportive skills (Example:warlock soulburn and AP or focus buff,FM divine veil and frost sheath etc) yet their overall usefulness is just measured by DPS?You find that fair?Ok GL killing harder bosses without CC,support skills nor tanks at all and with just bare DPS ..

 

To make it clear,DPS isn't the only measure of player efficiency,

AP isn't the only measure of efficient DPS (I can have meh AP but have great crit rate and crit damage etc).

 

Solution:

Normal DPS meter isn't enough so even DPS meter shouldn't be as basic as the idea most people get when I say DPS meter:

 

-DPS meter should show you number of normal,crits,missed attacks and not just damage dealt and your offensive stats compared to others.

-They should add a tank meter along with it where it would show damage received,amount of evaded,blocked attacks,amount of self heals,average threat generated per sec.

-They should also add a support meter as well:this one would be harder to apply but we can start off with amount of heals done to others then later it can include amount of stuns,dazes,knock downs and other forms of CCs done to enemies and in its final stages,it can include number of successful casts of support skills like successful frost sheath or soul burn.

-Final meter that can be added would be a total contribution meter:It would calculate total contribution of each party member based on the previous 3 meters.I understand this last meter is abit off limits and hard to be made but I am talking about a semi perfect model if you wanna measure efficiency of each party member fair and square.

 

This should show how every member truly contributed to the fight in %s and calculations so there would be no dispute.

Now elitists will have to look at the final meter (total contribution meter) if they wanna really measure the efficiency of other party members and they will eventually shut up.

 

I also saw someone somehow shunning frost FM on this post earlier *points at InvisibleOne*

 

I'd like to say that as far as I noticed,what fire has over frost FMs is higher burst (higher damage in short term in other words) but on long term,they both deal almost same damage because,frost is good at having sustained damage and is faster.Its like attack speed vs damage per hit.Higher damage per hit means it will do a higher burst at first but on long run higher attack speed will catch up and they will end up being almost on same level.

Its harder to do damage with frost than fire but not that frost fails hard at damage compared to fire..That's wrong!

If you don't understand frost build rotation well enough to do damage with it then please,don't come out with personal hypothesis about the build because,you failed to master it.

 

Example:when I did 5f mushin for first time,I did it with frost..I tried later with fire back then,I couldn't get it but could get it with frost again..I didn't assume fire fails at damage but I understood I am not as good at fire as I am with frost..In short,its a matter of tastes and everyone dig their own way to success.

 

Knowing when to use: (ice rain combo,Impact stage 4,some fire skills like meteor,inferno,gather fire orbs with LMB,frost fury and frost bomb) is key for frost  build.

While key to DPS with fire lies in animation cancel in combo LMB,RMB,2 or 1 (if you need burn) and spamming X,C,V whenever they are out of CD and its even easier to do dual dragon with fire since you are spamming LMB and RMB all time anyway..Sounds easier to use than frost,right?Do you get my point?

 

I will add that I find frost more reliable in many ways.

How?

1-It has more options like mobility vs damage.

2-it is more reliable,it can outlast tanks on many occasions because of the insane life steal from frost fury so you are less likely to die early..Yea dead=0 damage,you do remember that right?

3-It is more likely to offer more support to party than fire.(example:frost sheath,divine veil>>>Divine veil+frost sheath=any party member getting healed when attacked as long as they are in frost sheath).

4-Frost FMs don't fight over ember stacks. ^_-

 

Good frost FMs will use certain fire skills (fire C,meteor,meteors,stage 1 tier 3 blazing palm for faster fire orbs) to get full efficiency.

Good fire FMs will use certain frost skills (RMB is the best example,divine veil,frost sheath,frost armor,frost tornado,frost Z) to get full efficiency.

 

And if you still don't get my point then I will give you one last example:

Most people probably call BM most weak class in pvp as far as I noticed..Well,I will tell you,I found BMs in arena tag who were more bossy than KFMs and destroyers,they could simply beat every class they faced (even summoners and assassins and KFMs),the 3 people vs us by themselves even when me and the third person could barely handle 1 of the team vs us..

Only someone who truly masters something will truly understand how to criticize it.

That means those many people who call BM weak is because,BM is harder than almost all other classes to master specially in PVP bit not necessarily the worst and that's by confession of some and not just my words.

 

^this, good ideas of diferent meters, i realy want to improve my dps and see whats possible, yeah i know there is tower for that, if you can kill Mushin 8.2 in a certain time, just calculate your total dmg in time and you get DPS, BUT I WANT MORE

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Evechan   
3 minutes ago, Drunkie said:

What you are failing to understand is that people want to know what is the best GEAR for dps. Atm people have mixed opinions about high crit, high crit damage, pierce and stuff. I've came from TERA and dps meters completely changed the metagame, making people understand more how they should be building their gear.

Just because you think you're doing great, doesn't mean you can't do better. Stop acting like you're superior and know about everything and try to understand what people are saying instead of criticizing what you're failing to assimilate.

the game allr give % about everything, EVERYBODY know have more than 50% crit rate is the deal, its not hard to know, what if u allr do better ? because lol, blade dont have all this potential to be better and better, pve is easy , and dps can ''teach'' high ping players to build a better combo, but not how to play, at the end dps meter is more to calculate some % about jewel with x crit dmg against jewel with x crit rate etc, be your teacher.

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