Vecejj

Assasins exploiting stealth completely, so *cricket*ing stupid!

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Eynix   

Sin talking here. There's 2 ways to counter a sin using the timer as FM : preshot him while he's on stealth (this is mandatory in this match-up) or you can do a better score than him. As a FM, you might be the ONLY CLASS who can outmatch a sin when it's come to the score. I believe you need practice.

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Mighty   
22 hours ago, Vecejj said:

You can't unstealth with AOE because you can't use AOE without a target.

 

Stopped readind this topic here.

I usually try to explain things slowly and with a lot of patience, but on your case, I really need to say this

Learn to play

 

Explanation: There are AoEs that don't target. Look at your skill bar when you're not in combat and you might see some skills, well, you know, greyed out (require targets), and others which aren't (don't require target). You just go and spam the skills which are not greyed out. Easy right?

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Zerecas   
7 minutes ago, Mighty said:

 

So in other word, the mechanism is limiting our approaches. And that's not a good combat design.

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Mighty   

EDIT: OP's post replying to me has been deleted

Edited by Mighty

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Shar   
On 16/3/2016 at 6:25 PM, Vecejj said:

You can't unstealth with AOE because you can't use AOE without a target.

 

You clearly need more practice with Impact T2F1.

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You really just need to learn how to play, to those people who say it isn't a L2p issue? LOL it really is. Only bad FMs get spat on by Sins, Assassin's only way of doing anything or getting around involves stealth, just because you hit their counters during battle and they continue getting stealth doesn't mean it's an exploit, you're just stupid at hitting them into stealth. Like really, actually good FMs outbeat Sins anyday since their ice basically keeps us from using most of our movement options besides stealth. Good FMs won't hit us while we try to decoy. Good FMs BEAT Sins most of the time. You're obviously doing something wrong if you're realizing the strategy they are using and not thinking of ways to counter it. If an assassin is poison bombing you and running away to the edge of the map, FOLLOW him and you can take off slow with one of your Q or E, just play more patiently and wait him out. Another thing, your 1 actually knocks sins out of stealth so I honestly don't see how you're not knowing where he is at and just 1 him out of it. I can say that those sins your fighting our indeed playing cowardly but that's because it's the only thing we really can do against FMs since if we play aggressive we get shitted on by FMs stunlocks. Play better and you'll figure it out soon enough.

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Armalord   
1 hour ago, Zerecas said:

It takes a good FM to take down a normal Sin? That's explain a lot, thank you.

There is legit so much cancer in this thread/forums - I can see why good players don't visit it often, if not - at all.

It takes a Force Master who knows how to use their class (woah!?) to beat a Sin (who knows how to use their class).

Sadly most FMs - below Diamond - are trash carried by beating bots effortlessly due to beating bots.
FM's only real "bad" match-up is against BMs. Who are the least played AND weakest class in the game.
Sins are a middle of the pack class whose only "non-bad" match-ups are against other melees.

If you're losing to a Sin using a cheese "strat" that should only really work in lower levels of gameplay - then you really, really need to get good. Either that or consider how meaningless your rank/elo actually is. I can see why someone would play that way against a FM... since there aren't really many options against one.
But it really isn't a viable "strat" nor is it any fun to do.

 

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Vecejj   
16 hours ago, Armalord said:

There is legit so much cancer in this thread/forums - I can see why good players don't visit it often, if not - at all.

It takes a Force Master who knows how to use their class (woah!?) to beat a Sin (who knows how to use their class).

Sadly most FMs - below Diamond - are trash carried by beating bots effortlessly due to beating bots.
FM's only real "bad" match-up is against BMs. Who are the least played AND weakest class in the game.
Sins are a middle of the pack class whose only "non-bad" match-ups are against other melees.

If you're losing to a Sin using a cheese "strat" that should only really work in lower levels of gameplay - then you really, really need to get good. Either that or consider how meaningless your rank/elo actually is. I can see why someone would play that way against a FM... since there aren't really many options against one.
But it really isn't a viable "strat" nor is it any fun to do.

 

Already explained 18763486483648364836478 times how the match goes, other people have come forward and said they can't do a thing against too, other threads have been made, watched a few streams to see what they do and they end up losing / cursing, if you can tell me how I'm supposed to get to the other corner of the arena whiles walking at about 1mph whiles they run fast in stealth, then they have lotus in another corner, tell me... if they do this the entire game what do you do?

 

Then that's not all, if the timer does run out and you think you've won they will play properly for the last 10 seconds and nuke / chain cc you for the extra dmg and win that way. I came here to vent but to also ask for a counter strategy, the people who are saying "l2p" are complete plebs who've offered no advice whatsoever since they obviously have no idea how to deal with it either, I just hope to god they hit a wall of them.

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I've been raging about this very issue for days. They stay as far out of range as possible. If you get close expect blinds and teleports to the other side. Its pretty sad how people can log in to a game to pvp and do everything in their power not to pvp. Then win.

 

I think they should reduce points to final score when deciding winner by time to players that run the opposite direction all match.

And perma ban them for being disgusting.

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Mighty   

First of all, Assassin is the 2nd hardest class to master (although FM is preety hard too).

The FM who lose to Assassins are all crying, yet the Assassin who lose to FM are silent. Does that tell you something about you?

FM vs Assassin is actually in favor of FM in terms of equally skills players.

I'm not offering you any advice because I still haven't reached level 45 on my FM, so no I'm no expert on that class.

If you disagree, it's 1 vs the entire pro-scene from Korea, Taiwan and China, who have been playing for 5 years.

 

On ‎17‎/‎03‎/‎2016 at 4:18 PM, Zerecas said:

So in other word, the mechanism is limiting our approaches. And that's not a good combat design.

Uhh... like Destroyer and BD spinning? BM and KFM and WL blocking? Summoner interrupting combos with cat while under CC? Or FMs killing Assassins 100-0 if you hit 1 (read: ONE) freeze. If you stack freeze on us we just lose (unless you screw up).

The fact that ASSASSINSCAN'T DO ANYTHING AGAINST YOUR FREEZE is what's limiting ASSASSINS' APPROACH, so that's the only way some assassins find to beat FM. You're complaining about Assassins adapting to their 2nd worse matchup? Why don't you adapt to their playstyle?

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I think the issue here is not "omg stealth OP" or "qq nerf sin".

 

It's that a lot of assassins, no matter who they are fighting, spec to the poison bomb with the slow and proceed to stealth, throw bomb and use the movement speed increase of stealth to stay out of attack range, while the target stays poisoned and slowed. The assassin only enters ~16m range to throw another bomb, and then continues to sit (stealthed or not) at 20m+ the entire fight. If you manage to get within 16m of them, they just tab and ss, or something similar to get out of attack range again.

 

The problem people have with this is they are basically cheesing arena PvP, there is no skill involved, there is not even any fighting involved, the sins in question literally use nothing but poison bomb, any and all other skills they use, are used purely to escape attack range. 

 

Even if they happen to have a huge opening on you, and could easily combo for 50% of your HP, they don't, they run to 20m+ and wait out the timer while their poison ticks.

 

That's what most people are frustrated by.

 

(Luckily I've only faced one or two of these people, but it's about as much of a "1v1" as tossing someone into BW at the talus base)

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Vecejj   
4 minutes ago, KuroTeikokuNoRyuu said:

I think the issue here is not "omg stealth OP" or "qq nerf sin".

 

It's that a lot of assassins, no matter who they are fighting, spec to the poison bomb with the slow and proceed to stealth, throw bomb and use the movement speed increase of stealth to stay out of attack range, while the target stays poisoned and slowed. The assassin only enters ~16m range to throw another bomb, and then continues to sit (stealthed or not) at 20m+ the entire fight. If you manage to get within 16m of them, they just tab and ss, or something similar to get out of attack range again.

 

The problem people have with this is they are basically cheesing arena PvP, there is no skill involved, there is not even any fighting involved, the sins in question literally use nothing but poison bomb, any and all other skills they use, are used purely to escape attack range. 

 

Even if they happen to have a huge opening on you, and could easily combo for 50% of your HP, they don't, they run to 20m+ and wait out the timer while their poison ticks.

 

That's what most people are frustrated by.

 

(Luckily I've only faced one or two of these people, but it's about as much of a "1v1" as tossing someone into BW at the talus base)

Thank you! Someone who seems to actually know what I'm talking about, can you try and explain to specific people in this thread that they have no idea what it's actually like to face one of these sins.

 

I literally get on the verge of plat then hit a wall of these guys, I can't find any counter myself, can't find any guides, no streamers seem to do anything against them. Do you have any tips at all? 

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Not much to really do, which is what makes it a problem in the first place.

 

Try to keep them in range as best you can, even if involves trying to keep them in a corner or blowing your SS as a gap closer.

Make sure to never trigger their counter, they'll usually use it the second you get into range, and then be mindful of the 6 seconds until they can use it again.

Try to iFrame/resist as many bombs as you can.

 

It's mostly just focusing on trying to keep them in range and out of stealth. 

Luckily most sins that use this tactic have no idea how to actually fight as an Assassin, so if you ever get an opening make it hurt, aside from spamming 2, they won't really know how to counter anything.

 

It's not like there's really going to be guides on countering something like this, as it was not an intended use/tactic of the Assassin, it's more taking advantage of class and arena mechanics (timer) to win matches without ever having to fight.

 

I have a lot of respect for Assassins in the arena, as if an Assassin doesn't know what they're doing, they're practically a free kill, at least more so than other classes. So they require quite a bit of skill and effort to play effectively, and are extremely deadly in that case.

 

However people who try and take advantage of the arena with cheap "tactics" like this just give the class a bad name.

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Zerecas   
5 hours ago, Mighty said:

 

Uhh... like Destroyer and BD spinning? BM and KFM and WL blocking? Summoner interrupting combos with cat while under CC? Or FMs killing Assassins 100-0 if you hit 1 (read: ONE) freeze. If you stack freeze on us we just lose (unless you screw up).

The fact that ASSASSINSCAN'T DO ANYTHING AGAINST YOUR FREEZE is what's limiting ASSASSINS' APPROACH, so that's the only way some assassins find to beat FM. You're complaining about Assassins adapting to their 2nd worse matchup? Why don't you adapt to their playstyle?

Attacking while in stealth + speed boost + all those mobility skills, and you call a freeze limiting yours? How I am suppose to LMB when you're in stealth? How I am suppose to trigger AoE skills when it does not shows up? Finally able to pin down a stealth sin only to finds out he get the evasion triggered which means more stealth for him, when he should deserve to be revealed once he got hit.

Have you ever fought a sin that only know hit and run like the few post above mentioned at all, by piloting other classes. No? Ok.

Edited by Zerecas

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On 3/16/2016 at 1:00 PM, mrGoodkat said:

So you are complaining about a class using it's abilities properly in the arena....
FM is not good vs sin, sin destroys FM.

Let more salt flow through.

Also most FM's run durable healing builds against a sin so yea, the best way to go about fighting an FM is to do controlled damage and survive the timer.

I thought all classes were balanced O.O if so how can sins destroy FM but destroyers destroy sins? Or is the "balance" they talk about "one class beats the other?" If so that isn't real balance lol...perfect balance would be where every class has an EQUAL opportunity to beat any other class. 

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Mighty   
6 hours ago, Zerecas said:

Attacking while in stealth + speed boost + all those mobility skills, and you call a freeze limiting yours? How I am suppose to LMB when you're in stealth? How I am suppose to trigger AoE skills when it does not shows up? Finally able to pin down a stealth sin only to finds out he get the evasion triggered which means more stealth for him, when he should deserve to be revealed once he got hit.

Have you ever fought a sin that only know hit and run like the few post above mentioned at all, by piloting other classes. No? Ok.

"All those mobility skill" uh.. we have 1 mobility skill? 2 if you count the stun during stealth?

Anyway. If we stealth, you can AOE to break our stealth. If you Freeze us, we die. Can you see the difference?

You are low on HP? Np, use the cloud thing and Tab and you're back to full. We have 1 ranged skill that goes through cloud, with like 24 seconds cooldown (bomb). If you're dying to 1 skill used every 24 seconds, you're doing something wrong.

 

Yes, I have. I have defeated several hit-and-run assassin on my Assassin, Blade Master and Blade Dancer. If you're asking a question, don't *cricket*ing answer it yourself.

 

5 hours ago, DeadlyCode said:

I thought all classes were balanced O.O if so how can sins destroy FM but destroyers destroy sins? Or is the "balance" they talk about "one class beats the other?" If so that isn't real balance lol...perfect balance would be where every class has an EQUAL opportunity to beat any other class. 

For the 1000th time, this game is balanced for level 50 not 45. If you want balance wait a month.

PS: Good Force Master wreck Assasssins, not the other way around

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Zerecas   
54 minutes ago, Mighty said:

"All those mobility skill" uh.. we have 1 mobility skill? 2 if you count the stun during stealth?

Anyway. If we stealth, you can AOE to break our stealth. If you Freeze us, we die. Can you see the difference?

You are low on HP? Np, use the cloud thing and Tab and you're back to full. We have 1 ranged skill that goes through cloud, with like 24 seconds cooldown (bomb). If you're dying to 1 skill used every 24 seconds, you're doing something wrong.

 

Yes, I have. I have defeated several hit-and-run assassin on my Assassin, Blade Master and Blade Dancer. If you're asking a question, don't *cricket*ing answer it yourself.

 

For the 1000th time, this game is balanced for level 50 not 45. If you want balance wait a month.

PS: Good Force Master wreck Assasssins, not the other way around

Hurr durr BD. But not a *cricket*ing FM, right? We don't block 24/7 and deflect 24/7 from invisible hit and run ninjas.

How to AoE when the skill bar won't shows up unless the enemy is physically presence, see the difference? The auto targeting combat is utterly annoying.

Because when you got freeze, you definitely have no escape skills to further dragging the match by stealth again.

Using Shield (Divine Veil, 36s cd) as a reason is *cricket*ing retarded for a class like sin and any other melee, it heals 1% HP per second for 15s, it only blocks range skill not melee. You can always ended up in the Veil and hit with stealth for whatever you like. FM uses Veil because they're desperate for HP recovery after your bullshitery of hit and run tactics. You're *cricket*ing retarded if you hit FM during Veil + self frost. The Self Frost (Tab) recover 30% HP with 3 *cricket*ing minutes cooldown. At the end of the day, it may ended up with whoever the *cricket* deals higher damage and its obviously the sin that plays hit and run 24/7.

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Mighty   
11 minutes ago, Zerecas said:

Hurr durr BD. But not a *cricket*ing FM, right? We don't block 24/7 and deflect 24/7 from invisible hit and run ninjas.

How to AoE when the skill bar won't shows up unless the enemy is physically presence, see the difference? The auto targeting combat is utterly annoying.

Because when you got freeze, you definitely have no escape skills to further dragging the match by stealth again.

Using Shield (Divine Veil, 36s cd) as a reason is *cricket*ing retarded for a class like sin and any other melee, it heals 1% HP per second for 15s, it only blocks range skill not melee. You can always ended up in the Veil and hit with stealth for whatever you like. FM uses Veil because they're desperate for HP recovery after your bullshitery of hit and run tactics. You're *cricket*ing retarded if you hit FM during Veil + self frost. The Self Frost (Tab) recover 30% HP with 3 *cricket*ing minutes cooldown. At the end of the day, it may ended up with whoever the *cricket* deals higher damage and its obviously the sin that plays hit and run 24/7.

Again, as many people have stated, you can cast Impact while Assassins are under stealth.

And if you freeze na Assassin and he gets into stealth is because you hit his counter, that's your fault not the classes.

 

And are you seriously suggesting that Blade Master is stronger than Force Master at this patch? Besides, I'm leveling 30 on my Blade Master and I can do it, if you can't do it on your main class, it's because you don't want to put the time to learn your class. If so, it's pointless to keep discussing this topic. I'm out

 

Gl and have fun

 

 

Edited by Mighty

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Pipotron   

I'm definitely not a good FM, I still have a lot to learn, both about my class and about matchups (I pretty much lose to everything that isn't Summoner, Blade Dancer or Warlock, and I'm still around 1650 - 1700 rating).

But, I've faced a couple of these assassins, and, while I still lost in the long run (because I'm bad), there are some things I noticed that could maybe be helpful:

 

- Divine Veil (T3S2 ofcourse) blocks both the Throwing Dagger from Stealth, and the Turning Leaf skill (the one that makes them switch place with you). This is important not only because a Dagger hit gives them a free distance attack, but also because it gives them free extra Stealth (Dagger poisons you >Hook kick on Poisoned enemy grants 6 seconds of Stealth).

- T4S2 Snowball is useful, since Decoy animation is quite long.

 

- Things that you can use to kick a Sin out of stealth: Impact (any Tier of S1, for the parry), Dragonchar (T2S2 for the cost reduction + extra stun on first cast, if you're lucky you also burn an escape from them), Dragonwhorl (T2S1, so that you get a free Orb from a hit), fire Tab (I'd say T3S2, since it parries for 0.5 seconds, though that's a lot of points).

 

- Take the long range Phantom Grip (T2S1), 8 extra meters are nice.

- Backstep T1S1, if a Sin only runs from you, you probably won't be needing the extra Freeze anyways.

- Frost Armor T1S1, for the same reason. You can use it while you're poisoned; it's a waste of 10 seconds standing still, but it's also time in which you're not receiving damage, nor giving them more Stealth.

 

Other than that, umm.. well, Meteor / Ice Coil can hit even inside their smokescreen, and they don't trigger Decoy. Not sure about Short Fuse.

Oh and, getting hit by the flashlight from their escape Tab poisons you for 10 seconds (that is, 5 more than the duration of the light), and that can again help them trigger Stealth with Hook Kick.

 

 

Let me repeat: I'm still at the beginning, so chances are all these are already known to you / they are actually useless. Still, who knows, they might help a bit. c:

Good luck! ~

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