Meerkat

Animation cancelling... is dumb.

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Meerkat   
31 minutes ago, Laethiel said:

are you serious right now?.... look dude... you're an idiot plain and simple.. your "retort" and let's be frank. it was terrible.. is worthless.. you're what is commonly called a QQ'er. Shuffle on purple boy. im done with this ridiculous topic... moving on

 

Cutting your losses?  First reasonable decision you've made.

 

k, bai bai~

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doriza   

Ok, I wanted to make it short, but it's gonna be longer than wanted.

Let's get to it:

 

I can get some people don't grasp animation cancel right away and it's 'dumb' or 'hard' for them.

But I don't know why you're calling it stupid because it's not requiring a lot of skill to do (on most ani cancel combos).

 

I'd want to clarify something first:

You're using Fighting Games as an analogy, I'm fine with that, but Fighting games are using ANIMATION CANCELLING a lot, even since the very first "fighting game / VS Fighting game" to popularize the genre , aka, Street Fighter 2.

Crouching Medium Kick into Hadoken (aka cr.mk xx hadoken (qcf+P)) is an animation cancel (generally called "special cancel"), you're clearly cutting part of your crouching kick animation (mostly recovery, if you know how animation in Fighting Games works) into a hadoken, and that's been into fighting games since Street Fighter 2. 

Btw, that's only ONE example/type of animation canceling. The example you gave with the meter (tension in Guilty Gear) is another type of cancel (generally called "super cancel").

 

Secondly:

I could talk about how similar and different MOBA / MMO PvP / FG are (some aspects are really close, some are really not similar), but your complaint is about animation cancelling being too easy, thus it's stupid and not skilled, thus PvP is not about skill. Ready to hear my arguments ?

 

 

  • I'm pretty sure AniCancel was put in BnS to allow for a fast paced combat system, leading to cool combos possibilities. Imagine if AniCancel wasn't in the game, how dull the game would be. The combos rely on not so many skills and some skills are only usable in specific situation (stances, ennemy state [Stun, KD, etc]). The game would feel really slow and boring.
  • Moreover, you're talking about Guilty Gear and I'm going to tell you this: Chaining "normals" (Gatling combos in GG games) [if it rings a bell] like doing P > K > S > HS [if it rings a bell] is also animation cancelling in Guilty Gear, and it's easy to do. It's not max damage combo, but it's a combo. 
  • Doing combos in the end isn't the epitomy of skills in PvP/Fighting Games. Sure, sometimes it's a difficulty you have to work hard to overcome (grasping how the combo system works, what is a chain, what is a link, what is a cancel, motions etc etc) but it's not what will make you good at fighting games/pvp, it's only the top of the iceberg. Concepts like :
    • Spacing (also known as Zoning or Footsies) 
    • Mind Games (which you gain thanks to experience + knowing your options and opponent's options at given times/situations),
    • Focus/Chi Management
    • Understanding how offense & defense work 
    • and many more

 

These concepts will help you more than being able to mash buttons or being able to time them properly. These concepts are what make you skilled or not.

(side note: in Street Fighter V combos are fairly easy to land once you're accustomed to links/cancels. It doesn't make the game less interesting or skilled. In fact, you can focus more on learning how to play fighting games than how to play against your lack of dexterity)

 

  • Hard combos feel satisfying to land, I know for sure, I love high execution ceiling even if I'm not able to pull off hard combos, but combos aren't about fighting game skill. To me, being able to pull off incredibly hard combos is more about personnal dexterity/ability. It helps maximizing your damage output (sometimes the hardest combos aren't even the most optimized ones), it helps you win, but it won't make you win 101% of the time.

 

On one hand, you can do every combo in the world but if you can't open your opponent's defense to be able to land them and/or managed your focus/chi really badly to the point you're out of focus right at the beginning of your big offense moment, the ability to do the combos becomes useless.

On the other hand, you can do mid damaging combos only but you're incredibly good at reading your opponent, you can find holes in defense, your timings are spot on, you'll win. You will have more momemtum than your opponent even if he can land the amazing combo doing 80% of damage. He can't open you (make you waste your iframes / anti cc while saving his focus/chi and some CC), he can't hit you.

 

That's what Fighting Games are to me, and as I mentionned, these concepts are applyable to Blade & Soul. If you don't think so, watch Jaesung's stream, sometimes you'll hear him call for some SS or other iframes before they come out, he's reading (or at least trying to) and conditionning (or at least trying to) his opponent. That is skill. Combo is icing on the cake and with some personnal training you'll get them down eventually and they'll become nothing more than just dumb execution auto pilot (to a degree, in some FG/MMO PvP there are breakers (anti cc/bursts/whatever it is called) and they add a layer of mind game (stopping your combo mid way to waste the breaker. Doing a poor-mid damaging combo to keep your CC while the opponent waste the anti CC. Etc)).

 

I'm going to stop there otherwise it's going to turn into a book instead of a forum reply x).

 

EDIT: I'm not tackling ping/latency and framerate as these are issues you can't deal with sometimes. Not everyone has the money to get a NASA PC (or even a mid spec computer, some people can't afford a new computer as easily as others). Developpers on the other hand try to make the game running on a maximum of computer, but they can't make it run on 1990 computer hardware either. They have to make the game gorgeous to appeal to a maximum of people (yes, graphics sells, since forever) while making it runnable to a lot of specs (and sometimes they can't go below a line).

Not everyone has access to a good internet connection.

Sometimes, the servers f.cks up.

These are issues that have nothing to do with how the battle system is designed for the game.

Edited by doriza

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Meerkat   
47 minutes ago, doriza said:
  • I'm pretty sure AniCancel was put in BnS to allow for a fast paced combat system, leading to cool combos possibilities. Imagine if AniCancel wasn't in the game, how dull the game would be. The combos rely on not so many skills and some skills are only usable in specific situation (stances, ennemy state [Stun, KD, etc]). The game would feel really slow and boring.
  • Moreover, you're talking about Guilty Gear and I'm going to tell you this: Chaining "normals" (Gatling combos in GG games) [if it rings a bell] like doing P > K > S > HS [if it rings a bell] is also animation cancelling in Guilty Gear, and it's easy to do. It's not max damage combo, but it's a combo. 
  • Doing combos in the end isn't the epitomy of skills in PvP/Fighting Games. Sure, sometimes it's a difficulty you have to work hard to overcome (grasping how the combo system works, what is a chain, what is a link, what is a cancel, motions etc etc) but it's not what will make you good at fighting games/pvp, it's only the top of the iceberg. Concepts like :
    • Spacing (also known as Zoning or Footsies) 
    • Mind Games (which you gain thanks to experience + knowing your options and opponent's options at given times/situations),
    • Focus/Chi Management
    • Understanding how offense & defense work 
    • and many more

 

A standard rush down combo ( it's been a while, forgot the term gattling combo ) doesn't really use animation cancelling, it uses frame buffering ( inputting the next move before the current move is complete so the move comes out as soon as possible ).  There's no conditioning or special requirement, you just do it naturally because you input faster than what happens in the game.  Plus... I'm not even 100% sure if Guilty Gear did reduce some of the cooldown animation for moves in these combos.

 

This is a game.  We can solve many issues with better mechanics without resorting to gimmicks that don't even work well depending on latency or performance.

 

I have gone through all of these concepts.  My argument isn't that animation cancelling is the end all, be all, because certainly, footsies and yomi is more important, but it differentiates players when it shouldn't.  We shouldn't be competing over player input consistency, we should concentrate on those human elements like, again, footsies and yomi.  Leave input consistency to bots and macros.

 

Again, where we end and how we get there will be different, but that's okay, because we're all different, but we should all start, as much as possible, from the same starting point.  This is a game; we can control and isolate so many external obstacles to improve competition.  Animation cancelling, being impacted by latency and performance, doesn't create that environment.  Do you get what I'm saying here?

 

Again, as I said earlier, sometimes, I get so competitive, that I actually really appreciate the fact that consoles, with locked hardware, entirely eliminate hardware advantages.  Right now, I have an amazing PC, and sometimes, I wonder how much of my success can be attributed to my system outperforming their system.  Just knowing some of my opposition aren't locking 120 FPS makes my victories feel cheaper.

 

Which is why I'm calling is stupid.  It categorically makes certain players worse just because they aren't as close to the server, in a game where you can't pick your server for better ping like in FPS games.  For those same players, it makes certain classes non-competitive.  And again, there's no decision making process behind animation cancelling.  You just do it, yet tons of players act as if animation cancelling should be a fundamental for a good gamer, when again, what's important should be mental agility, not input consistency.


But thanks for the reply.  You had some good examples.

Edited by Meerkat

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Strider   

Soooo... A good friend of mine is taking a break from this game thanks to this 'mechanic', and bots littering the arena. Can I call it that? Mechanic? Is that what it is? Whatever.

 

Say what you will but I have to agree with his frustration over this. Being 100% to 0'ed when you've clearly had the upper hand all match is pretty damn annoying, discouraging, and out right rage inducing.

 

Your tab escape is on CD? Great!~

 

Stun -> LMB/RMB x9001, Stun -> LMB/RMB x 9001, etc. etc. -> Win.

 

Takes a whole lot of skill to pull this off for sure. I think someone called it rhythm... Takes a whole lot of rhythm to pull this off? LOL I can't even say that with a straight face.

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Post a screenshot of your kfm or destroyer hitting diamond, then lets talk about ani-cancel. A bronze talking about game mechanic is nonsense, if you are still seeing waves of bots then you can stop already.

 

Input consistency isn't important? Say it to any street fighter player who fked up their combo in tournament and I am sure they won't be smashing their joysticks.

 

Again, 3rf can be done by mashing keyboard. LOL

4 hours ago, Strider said:

Soooo... A good friend of mine is taking a break from this game thanks to this 'mechanic', and bots littering the arena. Can I call it that? Mechanic? Is that what it is? Whatever.

 

Say what you will but I have to agree with his frustration over this. Being 100% to 0'ed when you've clearly had the upper hand all match is pretty damn annoying, discouraging, and out right rage inducing.

 

Your tab escape is on CD? Great!~

 

Stun -> LMB/RMB x9001, Stun -> LMB/RMB x 9001, etc. etc. -> Win.

 

Takes a whole lot of skill to pull this off for sure. I think someone called it rhythm... Takes a whole lot of rhythm to pull this off? LOL I can't even say that with a straight face.

1st, what the heck did you burn your tab for? If you somehow get 100% to 0 then I am sorry, you misjudged your tab timing.

 

2nd, ALL class has the capabilities to 100 to 0, so how come your opponent 100 to 0 you but you can't? Oh ya coz your opponent probably use tab better.

 

3rd, bot is annoying, but they are mostly gone in 1850s, I do feel sorry for you if you can't even bypass those bots coz you know, it takes 10 sec to finish them each round.

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Brainy   

@OP

The devs won't change the game just because someone doesn't like it. That's that. If you don't like it, you should play something else, this game is not for you.

If you really need to, then send your suggestion trough a ticket to support, maybe they will do something about it (most likely not), but it's still better than crying about it to other players and making them mad.

 

 

Just please let this thread die, this topic was discussed 23948234 times already.

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Innolis   
On 3/8/2016 at 3:15 PM, Sokucu said:

If you even bother to check unofficial forums you can see,almost everyone uses macro for it.The macro is like a requirement to play the game.

Those who act tough here are just some crippled mdf crying for their exploit to not go away.It won't for sure but they always get the bait.

It's max 5 mins to set a perfect macro and i don't understand why these kids are still babbling about how talented they are ...

 

 

I won't bother, not really. When I started the game I thought pvp would be interesting when it finally attained some semblance of balance but after seeing the actual development team behind the NA release I completely lost faith. I only do pvp for the stones but thanks to the bots those will be worthless pretty soon. So I don't really have any incentive to pvp for anything other than daily quests and even then I don't really have any incentive to win either.

 

The macros are just icing on a bot filled cake of impunity. You really can do whatever you want and not get banned. Obviously those macros should not be allowed, but you can't fault people for taking advantage of a loophole caused by incompetent developers.

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Akamu   

I'll give some of my experience, but note that I haven't read all of this because there's a lot going on in it.

From my experience, somebody who can ani-cancel because their ping is better is a huge bummer. I was PVPing with my 120 ping on my BM against another BM, he tripped me and stunned, before melting my face off with Ani-canceling. It really sucks that my ping prevents me from effectively canceling as BM.

That being said, ping is always a factor in an online game. Also, NCSoft doesn't seem the kind of company who'd go out of their way to fix this, especially when the backlash by destroyers, in particular, would be crazy.

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For me and my Kfm it is like that:

 

I can pretty easily do 3rf on the training pigs and chain cc them. When it comes to boss fights or fights in a dungeon against mobs, i can do the 3rf sometimes but most of the time the game and therefor the ping is messing the combo up. making it a sort of 3 r r f, adding the second animation of LMB to it which of course fks the whole combo up.

Well guess what happens in the arena where i need to get the combination down if i stun the enemy.

And that being said, i live close to where the EU server are supposed to be located (Frankfurt) and my ping is somewhere around (or at least should be) 30ms (if you trust the ping tool from bns dojo thing i have a 7 ms ping lol)

 

I do not say Ani Canceling is dumb. If you doing your training on it you can do it, but even if you are used to it it will mess up once your ping goes airborn.

And therefore those players that have the luck and get a very good ping have an extreme advantage over those who don't have a good ping.

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Aluvis   

I pretty much agree on most parts. Right now, I'm playing on a sub-optimal computer for Blade & Soul (any other game ever does fine mind you), and I stutter quite often and have frequent loading lag/rendering. My ping isn't much of a problem in general although it has spiked up on occasions and completely *cricket*ed me over. And KFM was my first character to play, and let me tell you - if the game isn't running as smooth as eggs, you're going to have a shitty time as KFM compared to some other classes. So, from a KFM with an unstable sub-60 FPS in open world and occasional latency spikes, I would appreciate it if ani-canceling were taken out. It's honestly not even necessary, and, more often than not, it adds a layer of artificial difficulty as you try to spam your buttons to achieve optimal rhythm and consistency. In a more ideal place with better Internet like S. Korea, this probably isn't an issue which is why the devs didn't really care; but here where we have potatoe severs (maybe french fry level), it can really suck not getting the "highest" DPS possible due to a network/hardware problem. And the solution to network issues is often more complicated than just "get better Internet scrub."

 

The only problem is that since the devs most likely knew about the ani-canceling since release, or before, it has become an integral part of the game's fabric. Destroyer, KFM, and BM all heavily rely on ani-canceling to even stay relevant in PvE as far as DPS goes. So, suggesting the removal of ani-canceling would also suggest the refinement of each class to retain the damage output that they would have optimally had with ani-canceling. And that's another whole can of balance/nerf discussions.

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Eladriel   
1 hour ago, MinaTakashi said:

For me and my Kfm it is like that:

 

I can pretty easily do 3rf on the training pigs and chain cc them. When it comes to boss fights or fights in a dungeon against mobs, i can do the 3rf sometimes but most of the time the game and therefor the ping is messing the combo up. making it a sort of 3 r r f, adding the second animation of LMB to it which of course fks the whole combo up.

Well guess what happens in the arena where i need to get the combination down if i stun the enemy.

And that being said, i live close to where the EU server are supposed to be located (Frankfurt) and my ping is somewhere around (or at least should be) 30ms (if you trust the ping tool from bns dojo thing i have a 7 ms ping lol)

 

I do not say Ani Canceling is dumb. If you doing your training on it you can do it, but even if you are used to it it will mess up once your ping goes airborn.

And therefore those players that have the luck and get a very good ping have an extreme advantage over those who don't have a good ping.

Totally know how you feel,exactly my problem. I can do 3rf at pigs and even at mushin tower dummies,but when going to dungeon BSH or LAB it's just totally different and can't even do 1 ani cancel properly.

 

it wouldn't suck if it wasn't so ping dependant . Even a best PvPer can lose to some1 just cause of ping issues. That's why so many don't even bother with it,a guy could give up on PvP cuz of ping and you never know if that guy was actually some genius for PvP lol

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Solori   
On 3/8/2016 at 3:54 PM, Meerkat said:

 

Of all the arguments I made, you picked the most inconsequential one to try to argue.  Why?

Because if it's intentional-

You're asking for a devs to put forth effort to re-haul a system they think is fine.

You seem intelligent enough to realize that asking for a company to change it's outlook on a design they deem worth keeping is pretty much like asking for a baby dragon.

It's not gonna happen.

On 3/8/2016 at 4:44 PM, Sokucu said:

There was a thread where a mod said it was intended.But it's common sense that it's not intended.Who would intend something like not swinging your axe,not hitting but dealing damage ?

I can give an example of intended ani-cancel.Very old game Knight Online ... When you ani-cancel,an extra slashing effect comes out making it look like a feature.But here it's just a dumb bug.

Common sense is not so common.

But, if a mod- in contact with a developer- says that the system is intentional..then that's the end of story for my question.

 

What the OP is then asking for is a baby dragon.

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