Meerkat

Animation cancelling... is dumb.

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Gamad   
9 hours ago, Meerkat said:

 

Here’s the thing about playing games competitively: it requires skill.  Not everybody can play at a high level.  I can’t beat Michael Phelps at swimming or Usain Bolt at running.  Some of you won’t be able to beat me in gaming.  What games do is abstract the competition, marginalizing physicality so that the mind is the greater determinant in success.  Competitive gaming is strong because it is accessible; a knee injury won’t end your career.  It’s why chess is one of the greatest games.  It’s purely a match of intellect with no outside interference.  All you need is a keen mind.

 

 

THIS! is the main reason of why i bealive B&S have a looooong way to become a Esport.

 

 

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Rawrzory   

Allot of games have "hidden" mechanics till somebody finds out it's possible to do x/y.

 

S4 league had allot of these mechanics which all have been adopted in normal gameplay

Gunz aswell the so called "butterfly"

Counter strike q with AWP

There are many many more that actually made "bugs" features. 

 

I believe there was even a official statement that they will keep it as a feature so in that case it's even pointless to discuss it. On a fun note though remove the 3RF from the KFM's and you will see a constant stunlock with 3 spam .... I fail to see how thats more "skillfull" then doing 3RF which actually requires a ritme. I wish you allot of luck "mashing" the keys to get that one done.

 

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Hazgaz   
9 hours ago, Meerkat said:

 

 

In Blade & Soul, animation cancelling is the default action.  There’s no thought involved, just carpal tunnel inducing key mashing.  Since when does mindless key mashing improve a game?  Never.

 

If you are just mashing buttons, then it's not animation canceling.  Proper animation canceling is a based on timing and rhythm.  Try mashing buttons with KFM 3RF with no rhythm, destroyer if you just mash you will just cleave and lose focus.  It's a real skill that takes practice.  

Edited by Hazgaz

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7 hours ago, Erikkustrife said:

How about we remove animation cancelling just based on the fact that its screws immersion. Your characters body magically moving into a different position and preforming a different move isnt really good design.

Yeah. I know this is fantasy gaming, but anicancel makes as much sense to me as shooting a bolt action rifle or pump shotgun in a FPS rapidly without cycling the action after each shot.

 

There's no need for super realism, but this is pushing it.

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1 hour ago, Rawrzory said:

Allot of games have "hidden" mechanics till somebody finds out it's possible to do x/y.

 

S4 league had allot of these mechanics which all have been adopted in normal gameplay

Gunz aswell the so called "butterfly"

Counter strike q with AWP

There are many many more that actually made "bugs" features. 

 

I believe there was even a official statement that they will keep it as a feature so in that case it's even pointless to discuss it. On a fun note though remove the 3RF from the KFM's and you will see a constant stunlock with 3 spam .... I fail to see how thats more "skillfull" then doing 3RF which actually requires a ritme. I wish you allot of luck "mashing" the keys to get that one done.

 

Actually the Butterfly was no long used after the first half year when it was discovered, and the whole GunZ was Anicancel, there was no move besides using potions and nades, everything else was anicancel: TBF, IF, SS, IG, etc...(there are a lot more but i dont remember the names)

 

But ya, the problem is not the Ani-Cancel, it SHOULD exist, its fine, the problem is the Game code, it should be Client Side in order to have a fair Ani-Cancel, with Server Side the only ones allowed to do a correctly performed AC are the ones that play close to the server with 150- ping, so basically those with 250 ping cant use a destroyer competitively because their main DPS source is the Ani-Cancel, and yes, i havent seen a single tournament where destroyers win with out ani-cancel. (while the rest of the class's dont really need AC to win to be honest...but for destroyers is a must in PVP)

Edited by BattleKat

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Evechan   

All class that need/use ani cancel are dumb, no more, the advantage the ani cancel give is insane and idiot, only who use these classes will get mad, but in the end only the non-trash classes that use ani cancel will be in top rank, bai.

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Eladriel   
4 hours ago, Zel said:

 

 

That's literally every NCSoft game though. It's not a bug, it's a "feature". Certain classes in Aion weren't even viable without animation cancelling, and by extension, incredibly low ping (Assassin, what a surprise). 

Actually they fixed Aion glide vs fear thingy :D cause spiritmasters kept crying about people being able to avoid they're fear via glide :D  Took them around 3-4 years in EU  to fix it thou.

At first they didn't bother with it,then they said it was a bug lol.

 

As for the topic,i don't mind ani cancel,few hours or practice and it becomes so easy to do that a retard with 1 hand could do it,i mostly dislike that everything is connected to ping,i mean duhh it's an MMO but playing a KFM and having lagg spikes even thou my internet speed is more then fine is a bit hard and annoying.

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Tyranei   
6 minutes ago, Eladriel said:

As for the topic,i don't mind ani cancel,few hours or practice and it becomes so easy to do that a retard with 1 hand could do it,i mostly dislike that everything is connected to ping,i mean duhh it's an MMO but playing a KFM and having lagg spikes even thou my internet speed is more then fine is a bit hard and annoying.

Some classes require two hands to use the abilities to animation cancel.

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Zel   
11 minutes ago, Eladriel said:

Actually they fixed Aion glide vs fear thingy :D cause spiritmasters kept crying about people being able to avoid they're fear via glide :D  Took them around 3-4 years in EU  to fix it thou.

At first they didn't bother with it,then they said it was a bug lol.

 

As for the topic,i don't mind ani cancel,few hours or practice and it becomes so easy to do that a retard with 1 hand could do it,i mostly dislike that everything is connected to ping,i mean duhh it's an MMO but playing a KFM and having lagg spikes even thou my internet speed is more then fine is a bit hard and annoying.

 

Ok the glide out of fear thing was mega stupid, I'll give you that one. It really did affect PvP in a big way though when a full team could just glide off Fear Fhriek. So was the water pet clipping wings during a root in 1.5. 

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Tyranei   
Just now, BattleKat said:

i dont think the issue is learning to use it, bns ani-cancel is way easier than any of the older games, the issue is that the ones with high latency cant perform it because the game have a Server Side connection, instead of Client Side like most of the Action games, Client side allow you to perform the whole Ani-cancel no matter your latency, is a way better option, the issue is that the game was made for Asia, and they dont have connection issues so they dont care.

I was referring to his statement of only needing one hand, lol.

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Just now, Tyranei said:

Some classes require two hands to use the abilities to animation cancel.

i dont think the issue is learning to use it, bns ani-cancel is way easier than any of the older games, the issue is that the ones with high latency cant perform it because the game have a Server Side connection, instead of Client Side like most of the Action games, Client side allow you to perform the whole Ani-cancel no matter your latency, is a way better option, the issue is that the game was made for Asia, and they dont have connection issues so they dont care.

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Andrewgr   
11 hours ago, Jamein said:

Your entire argument falls apart because all you keep talking about is mashing buttons, if you are just mashing buttons you will fail your animation cancels, if a KFM spams 3rf as quick as possible 3 won't hit and F won't proc. You need to time it and get a rhythm for it.

 

You mean there are KFM players that don't have a macro set up for 3rf (or 2rf)?  That's... unexpected.  

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Yesma   

Agree w/ OP. Animation cancelling is such a powerful technique to play optimally that there should be a tutorial on it. If it indeed is originally found as a bug that's even more cause to exclude it. It does not add anything to the game aside from adding dependence to ping and framerate. Yea, there's a certain rhythm to it, but you could argue that anything in a game requires "rhythm." Rhythm in combos, movement, dodging, defending, etc so its not some really unique thing ani cancel brings to the game. I got the rhythm of lmb/rmb pretty good EXCEPT in large parties or certain areas like Mushin's golem where I can't ani cancel for squat the first minute for some bizarre reason. Was it my skill at fault at those times? No, it was the ping and computer performance that's outside my control, and no it's not my internet speed or computer specs. And don't tell me to adjust my timing and work around those influences that happen randomly.

 

This game is marketed as an esport? There's one thing very important in any esport which ani-cancel removes - clarity. Just one example: blade master's Shoulder Charge > Q so fast you don't see the shoulder charge at all, something Jaesung showcases in his videos. Or kick > Q. The viewers wouldn't see what happened unless they were very knowledgeable in the game themselves. I main BM and there are some combos he does that I don't even see. Without ani-cancelling, we would see everything as they happen, each hit would feel impactful, not look like glitches in animation.

 

Removing ani-cancelling also removing skill from the game? Tell me what's harder: squeezing in as many animations within a 3 sec daze with attacks that take split seconds to execute without much thinking WITHIN those 3 seconds, OR deciding which skills to use to maximize damage accounting for their animation time. You were late 0.5 sec after dazing him? With ani-cancel, it's easy to adapt to, maybe just 1 less skill cast in those 3 seconds. WIthout ani-cancel, you probably threw an opportunity for a "slower", more significant move, or cast it anyway and risk giving a window of recovery.

 

Removing ani-cancel "takes away" the power of some classes like Destroyers' (hilarious) spam? That's entirely up to the dev team to compensate for.

 

There's nothing wrong with comparing this game to Street Fighter or other fighting games. I'd counter that this is a fighting game that happens to be an mmo.

 

But we know this will probably stay. What are the chances the Korean devs will listen to US/EU about gameplay and balance concerns, not to mention the years they already had in the esport scene to adapt and adjust to?

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13 hours ago, Meerkat said:

 There’s no thought involved, just carpal tunnel inducing key mashing.  Since when does mindless key mashing improve a game?  Never.

 

God yes this. THIS.

 

This right here. Is what Im *cricket*ing talking about. 

When did the finish line prize become carpal tunnel?

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Meerkat   
10 hours ago, Brainy said:

Google "blade and soul tech chase". It has nothing to do with animation cancel and it's basically a very short window of opportunity where you can CC someone. This matters more than any form of ani cancel. 

 

Yeah... you know what "tech chase" is called in fighting games?  It's called "wake up."  The wake up game has been an integral part of fighting games for like THREE DECADES.  So yeah, I think I know a little bit about this tech chase of yours.

 

Are you actually trying to convince me Blade & Soul is mechanically superior to games with decades of competitive pedigree?  Cause... lol?

 

10 hours ago, Strindberg said:

I don't mind it. The issue is that it's become part of the meta so you're never going to avoid it at this point.

 

It's comparable to wave-dashing in smash bros; an unintended discovery that's turned into a staple gameplay mechanic. 

 

I've already stated Blade & Soul's "animation cancelling" is closer to "frame buffering" which is the act of inputting a move before your current move finishes as to reduce neutral fames.  But Blade & Soul's system is significantly more powerful than standard frame buffering, and does cancel animations so...

 

7 hours ago, Profyrion said:

This was a really well thought-out and written post.  Nice job.  But I don't take the competitive PvP seriously in this game (in part because of ani-cancel) so I don't think I'm the target audience.

 

The greatest barrier here is that Team Bloodlust isn't likely to be interested in improving the combat system in this way, and the fact that the game has been out nearly 4 years (in KR) probably (definitely) means it's too late to do anything about it.  It's a great comment/suggestion but I wouldn't expect anything to come out of it until/unless we start talking sequels.

 

Thank you.  I can't take this game's "competitive" seriously either.  Bad performance, dropped input... it's a *cricket*ing mess.

 

7 hours ago, Zel said:

That's literally every NCSoft game though. It's not a bug, it's a "feature". Certain classes in Aion weren't even viable without animation cancelling, and by extension, incredibly low ping (Assassin, what a surprise). 

 

Koreans can certainly make great mobile devices, but they've got no talent for making games.

 

7 hours ago, BattleKat said:

To be honest, playing gunz for so many years made me get a soft parkinson...which is the reason why i stoped playing it and my parkinson havent happened again since i left it, the amount of ani-cancel requiered in that game was just too insane...so dont tell me this BnS ani-cancel requiere skill because is a joke.

 

Carpal tunnel syndrome, right?  I think you meant carpal tunnel syndrome.  That's the reason I couldn't get into GunZ.  It's just excessive mechanical difficulty that can actually *cricket* with your health.  To me, that's ludicrous.  Playing GunZ feels like you're spending as much time and effort fighting the game, trying to nail every input, as fighting your opponent.  That's not why I play games.  When I'm doing PvP stuff, I'm playing to compete against other players.  That's the meaning of PLAYER versus PLAYER.

 

And here's the thing:  I think, initially, Team Bloodlust understood this fact.  That's why the Blade & Soul movelist is so limited, with such simple inputs.  A lot of other mmopergers have bars upon bars of different moves.  At a certain point, consistent input becomes prioritized over mental acuity.  Blade & Soul recognized this and kept shit simple.  Then they threw it all out the window with their bullshit animation cancelling, a mechanic impaired by poor latency and framerate.  *cricket*ING GENIUS.

 

You know, I like the console competitive scene.  Crazy right?  No, it's not.  Let me tell you why.  Because all consoles are the same.  The exact same specs.  Consoles level the playing field even further by eliminating performance discrepancy.  When I play PC games... well, in Dirty Bomb I play at a rock steady 120 FPS because I've glued a GTX 980 Ti onto a Devil's Canyon i7k.  How much does my performance advantage contribute to my success?  I don't know.  I probably won't ever know, but in the end, it's an advantage that I bought.  How much of my victory can be attributed to system advantage and not skill advantage?  That's not something you'll ever ask yourself on consoles.  That's how competitive I am.  I have to be better.  I want to know I pummeled my opponent into the ground purely on my own merits as the better gamer, as much as possible.  I don't want to hear some "well, you play at 120 FPS" bullshit.  Nah uh.  Nononono.  I, ME, I AM BETTER.  I AM THE MASTER.  That's how *cricket*ing competitive I am.  It's ridiculous.

 

Unfortunately, that's not a sentiment PCMR will understand partly because a lot of PCMR is composed of retarded neckbeards.

 

4 hours ago, fate1saber said:

Op, you realize that animation cancelling is not as easy as mashing your keyboard right? Try it on destroyer, mash the button and you will be out of chi, heck this isnt even kfm's 3rf yet.

 

Everybody talks all this big talk about having to have rhythm.  It's not mashing, you gotta have rhythm.  *cricket*ing l33t strats yo.  You wouldn't understand.  #MLG420YOLO

 

So I'll be seeing all you guys at the Guitar Hero 2016 Grand Champions tourney then right?

 

Oh wait.

Edited by Meerkat

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Meerkat   
3 hours ago, BattleKat said:

i dont think the issue is learning to use it, bns ani-cancel is way easier than any of the older games, the issue is that the ones with high latency cant perform it because the game have a Server Side connection, instead of Client Side like most of the Action games, Client side allow you to perform the whole Ani-cancel no matter your latency, is a way better option, the issue is that the game was made for Asia, and they dont have connection issues so they dont care.

 

I get what you're saying.  I've explained aggressor advantage as a combination of lag compensation and client side hit detection more times than I care to count.

 

That's not my point.

 

My question is whether mechanical difficulty is conducive toward a good game.

 

Let's define what I mean by mechanical difficulty.  Aspects of the game not directly related to how you defeat your opponent, but how you physically, in the real world, perform actions.  Accuracy and consistency of input is mechanical.

 

We are human beings, we make errors.  Because of that, a bot will always defeat a human in a purely mechanical game.  The bot will never make a mistake.  But we're not bots, we're humans.  Certain types of competitions are purely mechanical, shooting for example.  But whenever we can, when we compete, it should be a competition of our human qualities, not which one of us can be the better bot.  Our ability to strategise and adapt.  Our ability to think and imagine.

 

An example:

 

Counterstrike: Global Offensive.  If bots were forced to play by the same rules as human players, e.g. unable to see through smoke, walls, etc., humans could beat bots.  With good strategy and use of smokes and flashbangs, we can flank, one shot the bots and win.

 

Dirty Bomb, however... Dirty Bomb places such a huge emphasis on individual player mechanical skill, on precision and tracking, a human player will be hard pressed to defeat a bot, even in ideal circumstances.  The mechanical difficulty is why I love Dirty Bomb, but is Dirty Bomb the better game?

 

It hurts me to say this because Dirty Bomb is my favourite FPS game, and I hate Counterstrike... but Dirty Bomb maybe isn't the better game.  Counterstrike is definitely the more human game.  Counterstrike is streamlined; they've done everything possible to level out the playing field and create an environment where thinking humans compete against other thinking humans because Counterstrike is more about strategy and tactics and less raw talent.

 

That's a hallmark of a good game.  Isolating out as many outside factors as possible so competition can be pure, so that as many of us as possible can compete in a fair manner.  Player versus Player.  Have you heard of the game Divekick?  That's a beautiful game.  Your entire moveset is move forward and backward, jump and kick ( from a jump ).  It condenses everything great about fighting games: footsies, baiting, trapping, into a pure form with no accessibility barriers.  You can't make an error in execution; as a result, everyone can play and compete in the same mindset as professional players.  Divekick is genius.

 

Blade & Soul's animation cancelling mechanic throws all of this out the window.

 

1 hour ago, Yesma said:

Removing ani-cancelling also removing skill from the game? Tell me what's harder: squeezing in as many animations within a 3 sec daze with attacks that take split seconds to execute without much thinking WITHIN those 3 seconds, OR deciding which skills to use to maximize damage accounting for their animation time. You were late 0.5 sec after dazing him? With ani-cancel, it's easy to adapt to, maybe just 1 less skill cast in those 3 seconds. WIthout ani-cancel, you probably threw an opportunity for a "slower", more significant move, or cast it anyway and risk giving a window of recovery.

 

Removing ani-cancel "takes away" the power of some classes like Destroyers' (hilarious) spam? That's entirely up to the dev team to compensate for.

 

There's nothing wrong with comparing this game to Street Fighter or other fighting games. I'd counter that this is a fighting game that happens to be an mmo.

 

But we know this will probably stay. What are the chances the Korean devs will listen to US/EU about gameplay and balance concerns, not to mention the years they already had in the esport scene to adapt and adjust to?

 

This is the best response so far, spoken from a man, not a tool.

Edited by Meerkat

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2 hours ago, Andrewgr said:

 

You mean there are KFM players that don't have a macro set up for 3rf (or 2rf)?  That's... unexpected.  

I don't, but hollow and shallow PVP without substance, context or consequences isn't interesting anyways so I see no point wasting my time and energy setting them up. Albeit arguably, it's about the same amount of time and energy as this post required.

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Rahaya   

Sounds to me more like the issue isn't in Blade and Soul as a game, but that its a game that wasn't designed for NA/EU markets. Ping? Pretty much a non-issue in south Korea. FPS? PCBangs are standard set ups and if not used, the average computer quality is higher. That's both of the major issues with animation canceling rendered a moot point. Official tournaments? Same PC set ups, everyone same distance from the same server. 

 

Game released 4+ years ago, in development years before that. UP3 engine, this entire thing seems more of another variation of an optimization complaint post with a dash of NCWest being incredibly optimistic about NA/EU competitive scene.

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Shar   

I don't understand how can people claim that anicancel, something that can be performed by bots/macro, inreases skillcap...I don't think it's rocket science to press 2-3 keys in sequence rhythmically. 

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Eladriel   
7 hours ago, Tyranei said:

Some classes require two hands to use the abilities to animation cancel.

I wasn't really serious it was more a figure of speech :D, but if you're using macro you can do it even with 1 hand thou :D or if you're using bot program = no hands  haha

3 hours ago, Rahaya said:

Sounds to me more like the issue isn't in Blade and Soul as a game, but that its a game that wasn't designed for NA/EU markets. Ping? Pretty much a non-issue in south Korea. FPS? PCBangs are standard set ups and if not used, the average computer quality is higher. That's both of the major issues with animation canceling rendered a moot point. Official tournaments? Same PC set ups, everyone same distance from the same server. 

 

Game released 4+ years ago, in development years before that. UP3 engine, this entire thing seems more of another variation of an optimization complaint post with a dash of NCWest being incredibly optimistic about NA/EU competitive scene.

I agree with you,there's too much stuff that needs to work good in order to do good or perfect ani cancel. Dont want to sound like im making excuses but for example.

In mushin tower at f7 i can do 2rf and 3rf totally normal,not perfect but normal,now at f8 it's just lol,like my animation and attack speed just slowed for some reason. that's just one of example,same thing is in some dungeons and outside of them....

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ani-cancelling is one of the reasons i enjoy the game on low ping, it makes gameplay feel really fast and thats one of the things i look for. havent been able to play any other game since dragon nest/c9 cuz they all felt so slow and bored the daylight out of me. i thought it was the end for my mmo activities. also people who say "classes that can ani cancel" should learn more about their own classes. all classes in this game have animation cancelling including forcemasters. ani-cancelling was found out by korean players and they really loved it, to build upon that the devs decided to actively add forms of ani-cancelling to the classes. 

 

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TopKEK   

Having played warlock and using ani cancel to double my Dragon Call does make it seem really stupid that ani cancel can make such a difference to how OP or not OP a class can get. 

 

Then again, I can't really condemn it since it is what made me like BnS to begin with (and why I mained KFM to begin with). But I'm one of those casual scrubs who looks at both side of the coin and I will admit that while I love being able to throw 2 Dragon Calls one after another for massive damage (even more massive if I ever get HM skill), the fact that I can do that with WL just shows how stupidly OP it can make a job go. KFM 3RF is even more OP if you can get the rhythm of it while stacking searing at the same time so I can see why some people would see ani cancel as stupidly OP.

 

That said, if ani cancel wasn't a core part of this game (as in it didn't exist) it would dumb down this game to just simple Korean MMO mechanics of "press button to cast skill" which, while a very generic Korean MMO function, would make this game lose its appeal in an instant. 

 

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also iirc some skills were added per class for those who do not wish to ani-cancel, these are close to or just as effective in pve but sadly not in pvp. 

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Taemek   
10 hours ago, Kanomas said:

People are just good enough they learned how to do ani cancel, I can do 3rf without the ani cancel BS, and I'm plat rank, and a lot of good players i've met have no idea how to do ani cancel, so basically no I think its fine as is, with or without it, if you don't know it, play around it, thats all that matters, you can't get ani canceled by a destroyer as a KFM if you freeze yourself during their buff (as one example).

 

A lot of good players are likely doing it without realising the terminology people on the forums use to describe it, for example, iframes, a lot of good players don't know it as iframes, but Q and E.

4 hours ago, Rahaya said:

Sounds to me more like the issue isn't in Blade and Soul as a game, but that its a game that wasn't designed for NA/EU markets. Ping? Pretty much a non-issue in south Korea. FPS? PCBangs are standard set ups and if not used, the average computer quality is higher. That's both of the major issues with animation canceling rendered a moot point. Official tournaments? Same PC set ups, everyone same distance from the same server. 

 

Game released 4+ years ago, in development years before that. UP3 engine, this entire thing seems more of another variation of an optimization complaint post with a dash of NCWest being incredibly optimistic about NA/EU competitive scene.

 

The issue is simple, the game was designed to be played with <50ms. Simple as that, anyone with >100ms gets screwed hard.

Edited by Taemek

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Kozuki   

I don't like animation-cancel.

 

When talking about BnS and where are you from, what people ask you is why don't you go to the JP/TW/CN/KR servers, if you happen to live nearer to these countries, in order to have better pings. If you don't have low ping, then you should never dream of being competitive, they said. If you are insisted to play on NA from Southeast Asia, they will question your mental health and have a laugh at it. So, in BnS, the ping plays the game for me, or at least a major part of it.

 

Ani-cancel also classifies players into high-pinger and low-pinger. Instead of asking the playstyle of classes, they ask about whether this or that class is ping-friendly. If you have high-ping, play Summoner, etc. If you have high ping but still wants to play low-ping classes? Prepare to for a long long road of pain and suffering against low-ping players, even with ping booster. Even funnier, ping-friendly classes are pretty much all ranged ones, while ping-intense ones are melees.

 

And finally, animation cancel looks weird and cause animation look broken, at least with Destroyer. The way he unnaturally swings his axe with LMB/RMB makes my nephew, who watched me fighting a boss with a destroyer in the group, asked me whether that guy was speed-hacking.

 

End of ranting. Have a nice day.

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