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This game is pay to win, you know it, or I will show you.


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6 minutes ago, mihwK said:

You can make money with the skins. They are already trying to make money with inventory space, etc.

But that book is offering massive power to those 3 classes, and getting it is alot of work.

 

In a game which is marketed as "esports" you can't force people to farm PvE/PvP for weeks and offer others to buy these powers for money and simply skipping all the hard work. They can make money in other ways, why the hell do they have to sell gold?!

 

If a Diamond BM with book plays a Diamond BM without book, and we simply assume he bought the book with $$$, it's not fair at all. Selling something as esport has fairness in it's name, it has to be fair. Touching this topic we have the issue with Hongmoon Levels aswel, the games in arena simply aren't fair if people can buy stuff and have a stronger character instantly. Now before we get the idiots, I'm not saying HM Levels are p2w, I'm just saying it's another thing which makes arena not the way it's supposed to be in order to qualify as an Esport.

 

You can't buy skills in League of Legends and simply have a better Hero than your enemy.

You can't buy better weapons in CS:GO and have your AK do more DMG.

You can't buy better skills again in World of Warcraft Arena and have a better hero that way.

 

This game has a vision which this buy gold design does not fit into.

 

 

why does it sell gold?

 

Because its Already in the game before they made it, People were just buying gold from third Party companys Gold Sellers to earn there stuff faster, Don't act like it isn't happening, the gold spammers would only be here if there was a Profit to be made.

 

they always had a Currency conversion, through privately trading Store bought items for Gold.

 

the only reason u suddenly are uproaring this is because its now More Offical then it was and More accessible, its simply only that, ur crying over something that has always existed, its just simply NCSOft want the money from the players paying gold farmers to go to them instead of a third party company, so they've released their own version to bring players AWAY from interacting with gold sellers.

 

Sorry but every MMORPG has a Currency Exchange

 

to be Pay 2 win, or Unreasonable it would have to be something that ISNT all over the MMO world. standard F2P model, every company uses it... its Nothing u wont see in the next game.

 

"has a vision"... even tho as far as I know there are VERY Few MMORPGS making it into ESL atm

 

One of those is guild wars 2, which has a Currency Exchange market build into it.

 

P.S this is a Eastern Game.. and a Eastern creation, their Community want HIGH grinds requiring 14hours a day comittments, that's the strive for this game, its a Korean game their games are BUILT to be not achievable that's what THEY WANT TO SEE, this is EXACTLY what the game needs to fit into their vision, if u don't Like it play a Western game... your not going to reach in this game if making 400g is a problem for you... because u will do it for the rest of ur life.

 

Eastern MMOs = High grinds, Gold Sinks, Money grabs and Huge time consumptions, they're built for Hardcore playerbases, and ur clearly struggling to handle the concept.

 

 

 

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so... your logic here is this   A Person has a CHOICE and its not RECQUIRED to buy gold ( and potentially get banned for this) to buy a silly item in a game that could potentially make a cha

Just save your money up and buy it. Just because you're broke dont cry pay2win. Im far off from buying the book nor do I care at lvl1 warlock but will save my money up to buy it.

I would like to have the defending people of this game explain me how this is not pay to win:   BM /  Warlock / BD - BSH 4man Skill Books   These Books: - have a price of 400g

2 minutes ago, mihwK said:

You can make money with the skins. They are already trying to make money with inventory space, etc.

But that book is offering massive power to those 3 classes, and getting it is alot of work.

 

In a game which is marketed as "esports" you can't force people to farm PvE/PvP for weeks and offer others to buy these powers for money and simply skipping all the hard work. They can make money in other ways, why the hell do they have to sell gold?!

 

If a Diamond BM with book plays a Diamond BM without book, and we simply assume he bought the book with $$$, it's not fair at all. Selling something as esport has fairness in it's name, it has to be fair. Touching this topic we have the issue with Hongmoon Levels aswel, the games in arena simply aren't fair if people can buy stuff and have a stronger character instantly. Now before we get the idiots, I'm not saying HM Levels are p2w, I'm just saying it's another thing which makes arena not the way it's supposed to be in order to qualify as an Esport.

 

You can't buy skills in League of Legends and simply have a better Hero than your enemy.

You can't buy better weapons in CS:GO and have your AK do more DMG.

You can't buy better skills again in World of Warcraft Arena and have a better hero that way.

 

This game has a vision which this buy gold design does not fit into.

idk why i torture myself trying to get you to see any sense of logic here....

 

Its obtainable in game.... you can buy on AH For rediculus sums of gold not to many people have at this time due to upgrading.

 

IF and a big freaking "IF" people choose < Key word here CHOOSE to go out spend real money on this rediculous exchange rates. They will be spending 4 hundred dollars for 400 ingame gold. DO THE FREAKING MATH

 

And if they so CHOOSE < key word AGAIN CHOOSE to go out to"Buy" illegally obtained ingame currency and chance to get their accounts Banned which is happening by the way. Just to get this small (yet Seemingly OP Power change for you), Then let it be but by no means....AND I MEAN NO MEANS DOES THAT MEAN ITS PAY TO WIN YOU FREAKING PLEB

 

ITS ALL OBTAINED IN GAME WHETHER IT TAKES TIME OR CE jesus christ 

 

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4 minutes ago, mihwK said:

You can make money with the skins. They are already trying to make money with inventory space, etc.

But that book is offering massive power to those 3 classes, and getting it is alot of work.

 

In a game which is marketed as "esports" you can't force people to farm PvE/PvP for weeks and offer others to buy these powers for money and simply skipping all the hard work. They can make money in other ways, why the hell do they have to sell gold?!

 

If a Diamond BM with book plays a Diamond BM without book, and we simply assume he bought the book with $$$, it's not fair at all. Selling something as esport has fairness in it's name, it has to be fair. Touching this topic we have the issue with Hongmoon Levels aswel, the games in arena simply aren't fair if people can buy stuff and have a stronger character instantly. Now before we get the idiots, I'm not saying HM Levels are p2w, I'm just saying it's another thing which makes arena not the way it's supposed to be in order to qualify as an Esport.
You can't buy skills in League of Legends and simply have a better Hero than your enemy.

You can't buy better weapons in CS:GO and have your AK do more DMG.

You can't buy better skills again in World of Warcraft Arena and have a better hero that way.

 

This game has a vision which this buy gold design does not fit into.

You can purchase PVP gear in WOW for gold on the AH, you can buy necessary items and boosts on the AH, you can buy an item for real money and sell it on the AH. Buy your reasoning WOW is p2w, oh and the rate f exchange in wow is much better, $20 gets you over 30k gold. here about $300 will get you 400 gold.

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8 minutes ago, mihwK said:

You can make money with the skins. They are already trying to make money with inventory space, etc.

But that book is offering massive power to those 3 classes, and getting it is alot of work.

 

In a game which is marketed as "esports" you can't force people to farm PvE/PvP for weeks and offer others to buy these powers for money and simply skipping all the hard work. They can make money in other ways, why the hell do they have to sell gold?!

 

If a Diamond BM with book plays a Diamond BM without book, and we simply assume he bought the book with $$$, it's not fair at all. Selling something as esport has fairness in it's name, it has to be fair. Touching this topic we have the issue with Hongmoon Levels aswel, the games in arena simply aren't fair if people can buy stuff and have a stronger character instantly. Now before we get the idiots, I'm not saying HM Levels are p2w, I'm just saying it's another thing which makes arena not the way it's supposed to be in order to qualify as an Esport.

 

You can't buy skills in League of Legends and simply have a better Hero than your enemy.

You can't buy better weapons in CS:GO and have your AK do more DMG.

You can't buy better skills again in World of Warcraft Arena and have a better hero that way.

 

This game has a vision which this buy gold design does not fit into.

 

The advantage of the book is literally shortening your farm time by a week or two. That's what you call convenience. You said that in a previous post so why are you still trying to argue a mere skillbook as P2W? So by the same logic because you're arguing about buying skillbooks, does Comet Strike make it P2W too? Like in your mind you think "DAM this other KFM with the comet strike HM skill has a paying advantage over me!" Obviously that isn't true no matter what skillbook you're talking about.

 

Also since you mentioned league, people with certain skins do have a paying advantage. Some skins are banned for official events because of it having misleading animations. Paying advantage right there.

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ur playing a Korean game.. ur playing a F2p game..

 

every f2p on the market is boarderline p2w, and every f2p on the market is there to force u to pay, that's the point of it, they arnt doing u a favour, they arnt releasing this because you want this, they're releasing it for Money, that's it... they don't care outside of creating a community for this game and Earning a profit from the game, U need to run with P2P games if ur looking for a game where none of this exists, because even GW2 and BDO on the B2P Markets Sell the exact same stuff to you.

 

and its Our own fault, we've refused to pay subscriptions, we've Refused to Pay Monthly Pay full prices for Expansions, and Exiled games based on not being on the f2p market, we as human beings SHowed them how much they really could make through the f2p market forcing more and more games to becom f2p, if this game was Released 10 years ago back in wow and EQ1/EQ2 this game would have been £9 a month with 0 transactions outside of that. we Created this Model and we Demanded this model in force, now u have to either ACCEPT this is the New way of gaming, or Leave... MoBAS are always there for thje players who don't want to comitt to continuous Payments.

 

not to sound harsh on u OP, I understand ur logic, I understand the problems behind what they're doing, I'm not saying the games not p2w, I'm saying theres No game on the Market which isn't doing the exact same thing, which puts it under the Normal f2p model.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, gothicshark said:

You can purchase PVP gear in WOW for gold on the AH, you can buy necessary items and boosts on the AH, you can buy an item for real money and sell it on the AH. Buy your reasoning WOW is p2w, oh and the rate f exchange in wow is much better, $20 gets you over 30k gold. here about $300 will get you 400 gold.

Well that is my wrong then, I didn't play WoW for a while, and arena gear was ALWAYS bought with honor or the arena points, NOTHING in the AH, your blue crafted gear is worth nothing, the best gear was obtained by playing not by buying. Also I'm pretty sure you are talking about the inferior gear, but just in case WoW got even more casual I will give you this one. 

 

Here in BnS you can get a SKILL for money, forget the gear since arena everyone is the same except for skills and skillpoints.

 

The best gear was always honor or arena, so you had to play to get it and not $$$. If that changed then yeah.

Edited by mihwK
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I don't understand the Uproar tbh, Don't u walk into f2ps expecting these things to happen?.., every game Has the Exact same Money making devices, Every game Sells ingame currency, weather its by allowing u to gift cashbought items to players for Currency or directly giving u gold for Cashbought currencies, they sell the currency to players to Increase their pace, hell rift even will sell u the outright armour for Cash prices, for aslong as they're not selling u a product whjich isn't achievable in the game and granting a advantage to that player, its No worse then every other MMO on the market, I get u don't like it, I get that it could be deemed p2w, but its in the same boat with every MMO, its a Standard Todayus f2p Model, they're not going to be the huge change that free players Need, they want your money.

 

its only games like guild wars 2 which provide COmplete freedom, even then u could RL buy Gems to sell to gold to buy agony resistance and then Pay into the game again to buy ur Legendary Weapons, then buy Mats to make Ascended armour, and the games Unable to have to manpower to Re-make proffessions in the game so its falling apart anyway, its proven time and time again, F2P games NEED these money grabs to live, too many Players WONT pay anything into them.

Edited by Dray0s
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this game is not pay2win, that dictionary is wrong, for a game to be pay2win the game must offer in the cashshop items not obtainable inside the game or offer items obtainable inside the game but not as easyly and for better results, like a game have a +15 top upgrade and the ingame scrolls upgrade only up to 10 and the % for those upgrades are 100/100/100/80/50/25/10/5/2/1 ( for example) and the cashshop ones 100//100/100/100/100/90/80/70/60/50/25/10/5/2/1 

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2 minutes ago, Dray0s said:

I don't understand the Uproar tbh, Don't u walk into f2ps expecting these things to happen?.., every game Has the Exact same Money making devices, Every game Sells ingame currency, weather its by allowing u to gift cashbought items to players for Currency or directly giving u gold for Cashbought currencies, they sell the currency to players to Increase their pace, hell rift even will sell u the outright armour for Cash prices, for aslong as they're not selling u a product whjich isn't achievable in the game and granting a advantage to that player, its No worse then every other MMO on the market, I get u don't like it, I get that it could be deemed p2w, but its in the same boat with every MMO, its a Standard Todayus f2p Model, they're not going to be the huge change that free players Need, they want your money.

They also want this to be an esport, they can't offer power for money like this.

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Logic time. I spend 8 hours a day working for $ and you spend 8 hours a day grinding gold and other stuff. I shouldn't be able to progress why? I worked hard to earn that $$ which I turned into gold. You worked hard to earn that gold aswell. So where exactly is the problem?

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1 minute ago, mihwK said:

They also want this to be an esport, they can't offer power for money like this.

They don't you are bitching about an in game item that is BOE, that is required to be competitive, It is not P2W. And the current exchange rates make it pointless to try and use real money to get the item. 

 

It is just easier to grind out the run. 

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4 minutes ago, mihwK said:

They also want this to be an esport, they can't offer power for money like this.

 

they arnt Offering u power, Nothing they're Selling u is Directly affecting Stats Damage or Capability. they're Selling u a Progression System that u pay to bypass, Every E-sports game Supports this method, how else do u think NEW challangers enter?.. if they had to each farm 400g the game would revolve around 3 Players with No Capability of anyone joining them. E-Sports games are built with Nothing but Competitive Capability in the very end of the game, they need to Support players to hit that ASAP to train to catch up with Previous ESL CHampions to EXPAND the games Pool of Competitive Players.

 

E-Sports games ARE P2W, hence Why the fact gw2 is so hated in ESL... it has ZERO item advantages so it Becomes STALE as teams never change. Just rerolls of classes and classes cause its too easy to do.

 

this game taxs u HARD so FoTM Rerolling in ESLs never happen, so more and More can get involved each time as they turn over their main classes very quickly with bulk fees.

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4 minutes ago, FreyrBlackwood said:

Logic time. I spend 8 hours a day working for $ and you spend 8 hours a day grinding gold and other stuff. I shouldn't be able to progress why? I worked hard to earn that $$ which I turned into gold. You worked hard to earn that gold aswell. So where exactly is the problem?

You work less for the same amount than I do if we compare it that way, since you will always get more by rL means.

Farming something for 2 weeks while others buy it in 1 second is bs. (Or let's say in a couple hours of real work, should net you enough easily)

Edited by mihwK
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lets try keep the conversation polite atleast no need to be calling each other names, everyone has a opinon and everyone sees p2w to be something different.

 

imho. Even tho ur points right OP, ur justifying is wrong, this game needs these methods, to catch New competition uptoo old competition before the NExt ESLs are released, this is how they do it, its Also how they make the money to then raise funds and Rewards to be able to Reward Winners in the game, if someones Dumping $300 each time they want the next book in the game, fair play to em

 

they're paying for u to play this game, that's Whats happening, U pay nothing and get in on the game off these players back, if they didn't exist or weren't able to do this, you'd be without a game Faster then you thought.

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1 hour ago, Riyria said:

 

Every character needs that book only once though, right? So if 4 people need maybe 10 hours for a book to drop that means after 40 hours we already have as many books as there are players. Even if the wrong book drops, it can be sold and the right book bought for it. Availability seems fine then, imo. Given time, everyone will get their book.

 

"Core feature skills".. where's the difference to weapons, for example? Both are things to progress your character, to make them stronger. You won't get the best or very good weapons just for nothing. So why skills? I know other games give you all skills out of the box (just by reaching the right level), but that doesn't mean it has to be so.

 

The point is: The game has to be playable and enjoyable without the top-of-the-line stuff. But it has to offer something that's hard to reach (or at least takes time) to motivate players to keep playing. So yeah .. I don't see the issue with this.

 

Maybe I am just hardened from playing Vindictus, though, when it comes to character progression.

 

Edit: I see the point for arena pvp, though.

 

I'm glad you see my point, but there's another point I have to raise regarding the 2nd paragraph:
The price discrepancy between books means that you can't simply trade them 1v1 - those that are more powerful (e.g. needed for PvP) are currently sold for around 350 (BM/BD) gold, while others are "only" ~70g (KFM).

 

P.S: I'm coming from a Guild Wars 1 background, where everyone was equal and content meant gathering new skins of a gear threadmill - I do have played my fair share of asia grinders over the year, yet GW1 remains the holy grail for me exactly because the system allowed great PvP balance. (I'm still wondering why features like pure PvP characters that start at max level but can't PvE haven't become a thing in more MMOs. Especially those that have esports potential)

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Just because something can be fair, doesn't mean it will be. Even if none of this was implemented by NCSoft, what would stop people from buying from gold sellers? From people they know and could easily just give cash to in return for some gold? Also, you still haven't acknowledged the fact that it costs a whopping 28000 Ncoins just for a book. You realize if people are going to P2W using books, it's only going to be a handful of people you'll never encounter, right?

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7 minutes ago, Dray0s said:

lets try keep the conversation polite atleast no need to be calling each other names, everyone has a opinon and everyone sees p2w to be something different.

 

imho. Even tho ur points right OP, ur justifying is wrong, this game needs these methods, to catch New competition uptoo old competition before the NExt ESLs are released, this is how they do it, its Also how they make the money to then raise funds and Rewards to be able to Reward Winners in the game, if someones Dumping $300 each time they want the next book in the game, fair play to em

 

they're paying for u to play this game, that's Whats happening, U pay nothing and get in on the game off these players back, if they didn't exist or weren't able to do this, you'd be without a game Faster then you thought.

See this is not the discussion this thread is aiming at tho.

I'm not saying the game couldn't need the money, or if it's absolutely out of reason.

 

I'm simply saying this is pay to win because they say it isn't. Because, guess what? It is pay to win! I'm not fussing about the reasons why, just saying it is, and in a 6 page long game with bad trolls, I've yet to see 1 guy link me a source where I'm going to be wrong.

 

I linked them what I found over google, and I didn't need the google link to understand it. I understand pay to win the exact way that link describes it. If they think they are so right, why is it so hard to get a source which prooves mine wrong. I delivered ;)

 

I'm here saying it's pay to win, they make statements about how pay to win only counts if you can't get the said things by ingame means. So I google the word and see if I have a wrong understanding, I did this in the first few posts. I am not wrong, and I enjoy rubbing it under their pleb noses.

Edited by mihwK
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2 minutes ago, mihwK said:

See this is not the discussion this thread is aiming at tho.

I'm not saying the game couldn't need the money, or if it's absolutely out of reason.

 

I'm simply saying this is pay to win because they say it isn't. Because, guess what? It is pay to win, I'm not fussing about the reasons why, just saying it is, and in a 6 page long game with bad trolls, I've yet to see 1 guy link me a source where I'm going to be wrong.

 

I linked them what I found over google, and I didn't need the google link to understand it. I understand pay to win the exact way that link describes it. If they think they are so right, why is it so hard to get a source which prooves mine worng. I delivered ;)

You ignored every single post that refuted you, then replied to people you thought you could actually prove wrong, but then when you failed you decided to make a post saying absolutely nothing but "I'm right because I said so". 

 

I'm going to go back to my original goal, and just have fun with this thread and your faulty logic

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2 hours ago, mihwK said:

 

If I face a mirror match in arena as any of the stated classes above, the game will be unfair. It's not an even match at all, and my enemy has the potential to buy this power = pay to win.

 

i thought these skills are locked in arena, or did i misread the tooltip there?

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4 minutes ago, GreenBunionSoup said:

Just because something can be fair, doesn't mean it will be. Even if none of this was implemented by NCSoft, what would stop people from buying from gold sellers? From people they know and could easily just give cash to in return for some gold? Also, you still haven't acknowledged the fact that it costs a whopping 28000 Ncoins just for a book. You realize if people are going to P2W using books, it's only going to be a handful of people you'll never encounter, right?

You fail to realize that I want this book to be obtained in diffrent ways.

I couldn't care less if he was more powerful. I'm trying to raise attention to this book with legit arguments so I don't have to spend weeks of ingame time to buy that shit. I have the money for it, there is no way I will buy that thing, it's so insanely overpriced.

 

But do you understand the problem now? Even tho I won't buy it, all these people who wave their credit cards will. They don't care about the time investment, because they don't do it. They simply buy the power.

 

This book is neccessary to have a fair PvP environment, it has to be obtained in diffrent ways. The currency exchange will stay, no matter what. They are so insanely greedy, they try to grab money from you in every way possible. I'm really surprised they give us 1 free slot for the WL.

Edited by mihwK
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7 minutes ago, mihwK said:

See this is not the discussion this thread is aiming at tho.

I'm not saying the game couldn't need the money, or if it's absolutely out of reason.

 

I Because, guess what? It 'm simply saying this is pay to win because they say it isn't.is pay to win, I'm not fussing about the reasons why, just saying it is, and in a 6 page long game with bad trolls, I've yet to see 1 guy link me a source where I'm going to be wrong.

 

I linked them what I found over google, and I didn't need the google link to understand it. I understand pay to win the exact way that link describes it. If they think they are so right, why is it so hard to get a source which prooves mine worng. I delivered ;)

they proved you wrong from the begining but you refuse without any justification their explanations. this game is NOT p2w, for it to be it will need to offer something in the cashshop tha giva a extremely high advantage, like selling legendaries weapons only obtainable there and them be a lot better that the ones in game, or let you obtain things inside the game at a extremely fast pace like leveling from 1 to 45 in 10 minutes.

 

And what i remarked confirm you as a troll, because you refuse to try to understand they point of view

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3 minutes ago, mihwK said:

You fail to realize that I want this book to be obtained in diffrent ways.

I couldn't care less if he was more powerful. I'm trying to raise attention to this bullshit book with legit arguments so I don't have to spend weeks of ingame time to buy that shit.

If you want the book to be obtained in different ways, then argue about how ridiculous it is to obtain a book. You've been arguing about the P2W aspect, which isn't even the problem. I even addressed this exact thing in my first post in this thread, how it's not P2W, but books are part of a faulty system of being behind a ton of RNG, thus making you getting the book you want incredibly rare, giving people the ability to jack up the prices insanely

 

I've never disagreed with how ridiculous it is of obtaining the books. My problem is you're claiming P2W when that's not the case. I even started a topic talking about how ridiculous it is getting those skillbooks are, so if you want to talk about that we can, but if you want to keep claiming the game is P2W we'll still be here proving you wrong

Edited by GreenBunionSoup
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2 minutes ago, mihwK said:

You fail to realize that I want this book to be obtained in diffrent ways.

I couldn't care less if he was more powerful. I'm trying to raise attention to this bullshit book with legit arguments so I don't have to spend weeks of ingame time to buy that shit.

 

If i recall correctly it was the same bullshit in AION with skillbooks, the best sorceress book dropped in a level 40~ dungeon and if you were max level no one wanted to have you in the group because you took away their EXP. he book had a 1% drop chance from trash mobs or something like that and was the most expensive one in the market as well.

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With all due respect. Put it into perspective. You've been constantly going on about if you were playing eg. BM and went to Arena against what you call a P2W BM who has the skill book from buying gold through currency exchange; that this is pay to win? - But realistically. Just because he has the Hongmoon skill book doesn't mean he has a defining edge that will decide the match up. A players mechanical skill decides that, people don't just reach Diamond tier by acquiring the skill book.

 

Plus, as others have mentioned, it's merely saving time for those that do it. I could farm the 400g required in a few days of dailies and PvP across my characters.

 

Beyond that, I would like to address your previous comments however, you made it out to say P2W was pay to win because they can get something a lot quicker than others and for no work in game, right? - But then you proceed to say things like in League of Legends there is no pay to win? - However, I can go and get 20 rune pages and all the champions in the game with my money; so now I don't have to earn all of the IP to get that and have an edge in terms of my diversity in games, right? - I can buy skins that increase my performance in games; like Mecha Kha'zix that give me a sound indicator when someone is isolated. Or perhaps Masked Shaco; which has a black smokecreen instead of an orange one; this is far less visible.

 

Inevitably, much like a lot of the people here, I must disagree with the way you are using the term pay to win. If you wish to see it as such, then that is fine by your standards; but given the vast majority of players do not see it as such. Well, I do believe that NCSoft does not have to worry in that case.

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