This game is pay to win, you know it, or I will show you.

[Sdric]

The main issue here seem to be droprate.

 

Let's face it: Every player wants to be competitive, so the number of interested buyers is nearly as big as the (non-bot) playerbase.

 

Meanwhile 4 people can waste an hour or more on a dungeon run and there a HUGE change that no book drops, at all - and even if one dropps it doesn't mean that it's the one you need. 

 

The availability for such a core feature as skills is HORRIBLE.
I'ld much rather like it to be part of a Mushin-towerish questline that challenges the player rather than a grind for many.

 

The current system is bound to leave a vast majority of players frustrated and disliking the game.
Playing a Bm without Volume 2 vs. one that has it makes you want to quit arena.

PvP has equalized stats - but without equalized skill-availabilty it's a farce.

 

(P.S: Yes, everybody can buy the skills 350g - if they're sold, yet if everybody suddenly had the money the demand is much higher than the supply)

[mihwK]

2 minutes ago, Yeager said:

So by that logic/definition almost every game is a P2W. Sorry but that's how money works, it will always make things faster. Now stop whining and deal with it.

Not every game states clearly not beeing p2s.

 

They say it on stream, they say it with the word "esports", they said it many times. This item is p2w and goes against the vision they communicate to the players.

[mihwK]

3 minutes ago, FreyrBlackwood said:

First of all that is pay2advance not pay2win. Second, again it is the players that make the prices not the Devs, so just because it costs 400g now and you cannot afford it doesn't mean it is pay2win. Before Warlock announcement the his book was ~30g on EU which you can farm in 1 week with super casual play (30-60mins per day).

So when you enter Arena with your book, you aren't stronger than your opponent just bcause you waved your creditcard right?

[gothicshark]

11 minutes ago, mihwK said:

Just because you have to save up for it, doesn't mean someone else isn't able to simply buy this power for money, it's not fair.

 

P2W is about getting an advantage over others with money, which these books exactly do, their drop rate is insanely low.

Pay to win means, for $$$ you can by power ups which are not available in game any other way. If these books can be obtained in anyway that does not involve money, but requires you to play the game, it is not P2W, it is however Pay for Lazy, or Pay for (I work for a living and have no time to grind) Convenience. 

 

This game still beats, Pay to play, you can pay nothing for this game and have access to all the gameplay, although not all of the Convenience features. If there is a legit complaint about B&S it's the Gold Seller Spam. 

[Mishi]

Pay to win:

Able to gain an item/skill/gear/ect... via ONLY real life cash.

 

Since the skills drop IN GAME, and you can get it from farming, or saving up IN GAME currency, the item is available via in game means, therefore it is not Pay to win. (As Pay to win would have it only available through buying it with real life money from a cash shop and not being able to farm in game.)

 

 

Now this game is Pay for convenience:

Pay real life money to gain gold quicker and have the convenience of gaining the skill/item quicker than those who do not pay. 

However as it is available through fully in game means, without having to buy from the cash shop directly, then it is not pay to win. 

 

You CAN grind out dailies, and farm for gold, thus making currency in game to outbid the others on your team. (Not to mention the net currency gain when the item does drop in the instance.) However it will, and does take much more time invested in the game, as you are not paying real life money to invest less time in the game. 

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SS's sold @ 25s- 5.25g/daily

(Just from dailies for SS's.)

Now if you add in the MWT's you can sell: 4MWT drops x2/e=8MWT's @ 70s each=  5.6g a day

Add in Dailies gold gain at a "lowball" number, and that's another 15g/day

 

So far we are at: 25.85g/day

Now if you also farm Arena for ss's you can also sell those and gain another: 6.25g/day (not including ss pouches for gold+)

 

That leaves us at a lowball number of gold gain per day at: 32.10g/day

 

Now you can Also sell poharan perfumes, the purple ones from BSH, and gain more gold on top of the listed amount. (Though those prices are normally 30s/each.) Not sure how many you gain a day to add into the mix or not so I will leave those out. (Other various items sell for decent amounts of money which you get normally from the daily dungeons as well, and you can sell.)

 

So 400g/32.10g= 12.461 days of farming. (Less than 2 weeks, and many ways which the number of days farming can be lessened.)

 

[mihwK]

1 minute ago, gothicshark said:

Pay to win means, for $$$ you can by power ups which are not available in game any other way. If these books can be obtained in anyway that does not involve money, but requires you to play the game, it is not P2W, it is however Pay for Lazy, or Pay for (I work for a living and have no time to grind) Convenience. 

 

This game still beats, Pay to play, you can pay nothing for this game and have access to all the gameplay, although not all of the Convenience features. If there is a legit complaint about B&S it's the Gold Seller Spam. 

See I can simply google and show you what pay to win means, but since you think it's so diffrent, show me a source which shows me wrong but you right.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win

 

Here I will start with the 1. link over google, it states clearly: If you pay to advance in a faster rate compared to someone who is not paying. Your turn big boy, show me the meaning of the word in a diffrent source which shows I'm wrong and your right.

[Sdric]

As for P2W - with the release of a money exchange system, new content, an auction system and limited/low drop rates the game does get P2W.

Since the highest bidder will win - and somebody with a lot RL money does have easier access to ingame gold than somebody who gets it solely through playing.

 

In theory this should be solved by time, but still - for the time being the P2W player does get a headstart in arena for this season.

 

(P.S. I am a paying user - but I dislike the thought of trading RL money for other things than service/costumes)

[gothicshark]

9 minutes ago, mihwK said:

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win

 

It's okay bobby, I will explain this to you, I'm expecting brainless people when I make a thread like this.

 

Someone who can buy power at a faster rate because he pays for it, is the definiton of p2w. Just because you can save up gold doesn't mean it's not p2w. I just rocked your world, admit it.

You are quoting something that you can edit on at the time you quote it. It is also not a set in stone definition. But I can point out that if we hold to your definition, then Every game since 2010 is Pay to Win. Because every game has included micro transactions now that allow people to gain things at faster rates, even WOW. 

[Difinitus]

Did he really link Urban Dictionary as his reference? lol I hope he realize that it's not actually moderated and anyone can submit whatever they want. That's like using Wikipedia on a research paper. 

[Mishi]

Just now, mihwK said:

I'm too lazy to pull up all the times NCSoft said, they don't want this game to be p2w. Are you smart enough to look it up yourself or even remember the countless times this game STATES it DOESN'T WANT TO BE P2W, but it is right now.

It's Pay for convenience, or PLAY to win. 

 

Not Pay to win. (See my previous reply.)

[Riyria]

10 minutes ago, Sdric said:

The main issue here seem to be droprate.

 

Let's face it: Every player wants to be competitive, so the number of interested buyers is nearly as big as the (non-bot) playerbase.

 

Meanwhile 4 people can waste an hour or more on a dungeon run and there a HUGE change that no book drops, at all - and even if one dropps it doesn't mean that it's the one you need. 

 

The availability for such a core feature as skills is HORRIBLE.
I'ld much rather like it to be part of a Mushin-towerish questline that challenges the player rather than a grind for many.

 

The current system is bound to leave a vast majority of players frustrated and disliking the game.
Playing a Bm without Volume 2 vs. one that has it makes you want to quit arena.

PvP has equalized stats - but without equalized skill-availabilty it's a farce.

 

(P.S: Yes, everybody can buy the skills 350g - if they're sold, yet if everybody suddenly had the money the demand is much higher than the supply)

 

Every character needs that book only once though, right? So if 4 people need maybe 10 hours for a book to drop that means after 40 hours we already have as many books as there are players. Even if the wrong book drops, it can be sold and the right book bought for it. Availability seems fine then, imo. Given time, everyone will get their book.

 

"Core feature skills".. where's the difference to weapons, for example? Both are things to progress your character, to make them stronger. You won't get the best or very good weapons just for nothing. So why skills? I know other games give you all skills out of the box (just by reaching the right level), but that doesn't mean it has to be so.

 

The point is: The game has to be playable and enjoyable without the top-of-the-line stuff. But it has to offer something that's hard to reach (or at least takes time) to motivate players to keep playing. So yeah .. I don't see the issue with this.

 

Maybe I am just hardened from playing Vindictus, though, when it comes to character progression.

 

Edit: I see the point for arena pvp, though.

[mihwK]

Just now, gothicshark said:

You are quoting something that you can edit on at the time you quote it. It is also not a set in stone definition. But I can point out that if we hold to your definition, then Every game since 2010 is Pay to Win. Because every game has included micro transactions now that allow people to gain things at faster rates, even WOW. 

I'm too lazy to pull up all the times NCSoft said, they don't want this game to be p2w. Are you smart enough to look it up yourself or even remember the countless times this game STATES it DOESN'T WANT TO BE P2W, but it is right now.

[Infamous]

This is really "I can't affordz it and I no has ppl to do 4 man so it must be p2w" topic.  Here is few facts:
1. The skills are expensive because their drop rate is really low, if they would drop every 2nd run, they would cost barelly above 1 gold.

2. If you think buying gold, then using it to buy skill is p2w, then you need to go back to school for math lessons. So you say the skill costs 400 golds. Let's say the person already has 50 gold, so he needs 350 more. He buys gold from currency exchange. Now I don't know the current rate, but let's say it is 65 nccoins for 1 gold (I am most likely wrong about the rate, but it's just for example). So 65x350 = 22,750 nccoins. 8000 NCcoins costs 100$, so if you are going to spend 250$~ just for a skill, go ahead, but only people that would do that are mostly the ones who have rich parents or no freinds :)
3.  Your QQ is really funny :D

[LinaCrysta]

You can earn it...

I got true pirate weapon and my hongmoon skill on my main.No pay to wina t all.I just focused on my main chara and saved gold and did dailies..daily then farmed dungeons

[mihwK]

9 minutes ago, Riyria said:

 

Every character needs that book only once though, right? So if 4 people need maybe 10 hours for a book to drop that means after 40 hours we already have as many books as there are players. Even if the wrong book drops, it can be sold and the right book bought for it. Availability seems fine then, imo. Given time, everyone will get their book.

 

"Core feature skills".. where's the difference to weapons, for example? Both are things to progress your character, to make them stronger. You won't get the best or very good weapons just for nothing. So why skills? I know other games give you all skills out of the box (just by reaching the right level), but that doesn't mean it has to be so.

 

The point is: The game has to be playable and enjoyable without the top-of-the-line stuff. But it has to offer something that's hard to reach (or at least takes time) to motivate players to keep playing. So yeah .. I don't see the issue with this.

 

Maybe I am just hardened from playing Vindictus, though, when it comes to character progression.

 

Edit: I see the point for arena pvp, though.

The point is, if you don't pay with money, you have to earn it in game the legit way. Other people can simply pay their way through it instantly. No time investment, nothing, creditcard and they are good to go. It's not that hard.

 

You are buying power other players have to farm for and thus, earn it INGAME. As a player who pays for the item, you are cheating the fking game and are better than the ones who didn't earn it ingame.

[chinmi]

pay to win is if the book can only be bought from the store, and not from the drop

cause the book is drop in a dungeon, then it's not p2w, more like grind2win

[DoowieEU]

mihwK, please tell us you're just trolling us all this time? I mean you really can't be this uneducated in regards to online gaming and the terminology behind a lot of the references these days?

 

Or did you P2W your online gaming experience?

[FreyrBlackwood]

17 minutes ago, mihwK said:

So when you enter Arena with your book, you aren't stronger than your opponent just bcause you waved your creditcard right?

So what if you are stronger? So by that logic you can consider someone hardcore gamer because they have 1 more HM lvl then you? No, they just grinded for it.

[mihwK]

I could link 2 players, 1 hearthstone and the other I have no idea wtf he does. Both work in the Oil Industrie.

The hearthstone guy spend over 20k$ just for the cards, and he will keep doing so. Yeah, sccessful people just don't have time, you are right, these guys grow their money on magical trees and collect it.

[DoowieEU]

Are those magical trees P2W?

[Ishtar]

You should probably stop replying to these people, they're not here for the discussion, they're here to troll you. 

I bet most people here earn money from those books lmao.

 

 

[Caex]

i request the Devs Lock this Thread before this OP gets more of an Ego Rage going.

[Fablewings]

This is super bait.

 

Any item that is rare should cost 5g for everyone to get. 

[mihwK]

11 minutes ago, FreyrBlackwood said:

So what if you are stronger? So by that logic you can consider someone hardcore gamer because they have 1 more HM lvl then you? No, they just grinded for it.

This thread is hilarious, I expected some dumbness but this is epic.

The WL book alone increases your DMG by 70%, and who talked about hardcore gamers?!

 

No one talks about the people who have grinded for it either, it's about the people who haven't done anything and just bought it with money instead of earning it in-game the legit way.

 

The game should not allow you to buy gold. If you buy it from the chinese you should get banned. With the currency exchange, buying power is doable in a legit way, atleast risk getting banned for your p2w mechanics.

[Caex]

2 minutes ago, mihwK said:

This thread is hilarious, I expected some dumbness but this is epic.

The WL book alone increases your DMG by 70%, and who talked about hardcore gamers?!

 

No one talks about the people who have grinded for it either, it's about the people who haven't done anything and just bought it with money instead of earning it in-game the legit way.

 

but how can you prove this? please tell me