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fire fury + dragon blaze and blazing beam damage comparison and discussion


KamijoTouma

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I made some tests on these skills to determine which is better.

First they both fire at the same rate, they are both restricted by GCD = 1sec.

I made many attempts on these skills and calculate their average damage.

My attack power is 354

the target was under burn effect, crit is not included.

fire fury damage: 2880(3 hits, with dragon blaze buff)

dragon blaze damage: 4143

combo total damage: 7023

 

blazing beam damage: 3520, X2 = 7040

 

We can see 7023≈7040. So basically we can claim that these 2 rotations deal the same damage.

But why fire fury + dragon blaze combo is superior?

1. blazing beam costs 2 focus,. You may even want to make some RMB, that costs even more focus. Then you have to switch to ice stance to recover focus, this is a great damage loss.

fire fury + dragon blaze combo dose not require any focus. Save focus for windstorm.

2. blazing beam stacks ember slow(1 per hit on non burning target). Sometime you need fast ember to make a burn effect, blazing beam does a bad job. While fire fury stacks 3 ember and dragon blaze stacks 5.... Burn the target any time you want!

3. most blazing beam users ignore windstorm. You will lose a lot of damage if you ignore this skill. On a grappled, grabbed or phantom gripped target, it can deal 10k+ damage per second. very scary. Based on my frame by frame analysis, this skill hits every 0.2 second, 5 hits in 1 second. 2000 non crit damage and 3500 crit damage. And it provides 30%  extra crit rate  after 10 hits. So its max dps with my gear(42.44% crit rate) is (2000*0.2756+3500*0.7244)*5 = 15433 dps. Compare to fire fury + dragon blaze combo dps = 7023 / 2 = 3511.5. So i don't need to further explain how great this skill is.

Even if as a blazing beam user, you spend 3 points on windstorm, you won't always have enough focus to use it.

4. don't underestimate meteor's damage. It hits 5 times, and deals 3000(non crit) damage on a burning target. This damage is insane, its extra 4k+ dps in 5 sec. And dragon blaze descreases meteor's cd by 3 sec every use. This means -3 sec cd every 2 sec. Set a function and it is possible to determine that after 9 uses of dragon blaze, the cd of meteor is ready. Considering, dragon blaze can not be always available, we can claim that meteor's cd is decreased by half.

 

Conclusion: fire fury + dragon blaze combo is superior than  blazing beam(plus some ice skills). But blazing beam can serve as a filler skill when fire fury or dragon blaze are not available.

build link: https://bnstree.com/FM/Vkpp_8Wol

 

 

 

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Erm i disagree heres why: Blazing beam with my apwr (389)does about 4kish none crit windstorm dosent only cost the same focus (if speced) it also does less dmg in a longer amount of time mine is about 1.4k max over 2 hits blazing beam however does 2255 in 1 hit with the same or slightly higher focus cost without burn also u can cancel it with LB and RB to further increase the dmg my windstorm does about 2kish per hit so thats 4k total in 1s my blazing beam does 4k normal hit on a burned enemy in the same amount of time with the same focus cost or 1 more then windstorm, Crit it does about 8k ave. Fire fury is also a dps loss imo sure it looks like it does a lot and sure its a decent skill but mine if fully speced does about 1.1kish dmg over 3 hits 1.1k/3= 360ish dmg per hit in about 1s or so which again blazing beam without burn does about 2k plus can cancel it with lbrb. 

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18 minutes ago, dmoe33 said:

Erm i disagree heres why: Blazing beam with my apwr (389)does about 4kish none crit windstorm dosent only cost the same focus (if speced) it also does less dmg in a longer amount of time mine is about 1.4k max over 2 hits blazing beam however does 2255 in 1 hit with the same or slightly higher focus cost without burn also u can cancel it with LB and RB to further increase the dmg my windstorm does about 2kish per hit so thats 4k total in 1s my blazing beam does 4k normal hit on a burned enemy in the same amount of time with the same focus cost or 1 more then windstorm, Crit it does about 8k ave. Fire fury is also a dps loss imo sure it looks like it does a lot and sure its a decent skill but mine if fully speced does about 1.1kish dmg over 3 hits 1.1k/3= 360ish dmg per hit in about 1s or so which again blazing beam without burn does about 2k plus can cancel it with lbrb. 

All my analysis is based on careful tests and calculations.

You clearly don't understand the mechanism of windstorm. It deals high damage when the target is grappled, grabbed and phantom gripped, low damage in other status. But even if the target is not grappled, grabbed or phantom gripped, the damage is still no worse than other skills. Because it hits 5 times per second. PS: boss#1 in bloodshade is under one of the 3 statuses above when he drops from the ceiling. With the buff I can do 25k+dps.

focus is not a problem. Using my build, you always have 10 focus ready, so in the worst case you can cast 5 windstorms. But true profane and short fuse can solve the problem. And remember, by build doesn't really need focus except windstorm, so even if I ran out of focus, my rotation won;t be affected a bit.

fire fury does 920-1010 damage per hit on a burning target with my gear. you numbers are wrong.

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2 minutes ago, KamijoTouma said:

All my analysis is based on careful tests and calculations.

You clearly don't understand the mechanism of windstorm. It deals high damage when the target is grappled, grabbed and phantom gripped, low damage in other status. But even if the target is not grappled, grabbed or phantom gripped, the damage is still no worse than other skills. Because it hits 5 times per second.

focus is not a problem. Using my build, you always have 10 focus ready, so in the worst case you can cast 5 windstorms. But true profane and short fuse can solve the problem. And remember, by build doesn't really need focus except windstorm, so even if I ran out of focus, my rotation won;t be affected a bit.

fire fury does 920-1010 damage per hit on a burning target with my gear. you numbers are wrong.

and you clearly dont know how blazing beam works. Ive told you my windstorm does about 2k per crit hit max as opposed to my blazing beam which does 4k a  hit non crit focus isnt a prob either but still if u spam windstorm not only is it a dps loss but ur also running outta focus also u have to consider u can use blazing beam anytime windstorm target needs to be CCed. Also 920-1010 per hit even if u did do that amount it would still be inferior to blazing beam as that gives u about 3k dmg total which again blazing beam 4k NON CRIT, im assuming even single hit of fury crits which to get that every one of em has to crit every time plus u need to have a crit skill in the first place to use it. If my numbers are wrong then so are yours

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3 minutes ago, dmoe33 said:

and you clearly dont know how blazing beam works. Ive told you my windstorm does about 2k per crit hit max as opposed to my blazing beam which does 4k a  hit non crit focus isnt a prob either but still if u spam windstorm not only is it a dps loss but ur also running outta focus also u have to consider u can use blazing beam anytime windstorm target needs to be CCed. Also 920-1010 per hit even if u did do that amount it would still be inferior to blazing beam as that gives u about 3k dmg total which again blazing beam 4k NON CRIT, im assuming even single hit of fury crits which to get that every one of em has to crit every time plus u need to have a crit skill in the first place to use it. If my numbers are wrong then so are yours

I have said, all my analysis is based on careful tests and calculations, not on impressions or imagination.

I got the numbers because I did the tests and calculations. They are correct. And they are based under my gear, not your gear.

I clearly stated the damage of my blazing beam in the post. And I did the damage comparison. I concluded with they had roughly the same damage.

I have also stated when windstorm can deal high damage and like you are just ignoring it.

I have also stated that my build doesnt need focus, you are ignoring it.

I am a master student in Computer Engineering. I can guarantee the correctness of my calculations and analysis.

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Just now, KamijoTouma said:

I have said, all my analysis is based on careful tests and calculations, not on impressions or imagination.

I got the numbers because I did the tests and calculations. They are correct. And they are based under my gear, not your gear.

I clearly stated the damage of my blazing beam in the post. And I did the damage comparison. I concluded with they had roughly the same damage.

I have also stated when windstorm can deal high damage and like you are just ignoring it.

I have also stated that my build doesnt need focus, you are ignoring it.

I am a master student in Computer Engineering. I can guarantee the correctness of my calculations and analysis.

First off im not ignoring anything ive acknowledge the tests and ive acknowledged the focus cost and windstorm i am disagreeing with u and saying why i think your wrong and giving u examples and your failing to acknowledge my acknowledgements. I am giving u reasons as to why i think ur wrong im not just blindly saying "oh no ur wrong" and im not forcing my opinion onto u, also i dont see how ur education background has anything to do with this discussion 

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I'd still argue that lmb > rmb > 2 still deals significantly more damage. Plus it builds orbs for Dual Dragons. 

 

As of the current patch, yes Dragonblaze / Dragonfrost increases fire / ice damage but only from elemental accessories. We don't have those accessories yet. 

 

 

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I think your comparing the wrong skills. Blazing beam is part of a rotation to build both fire and ice orbs. the penultimate goal of both is to release Dual dragons as much as possible. using the lr2 combo has been found to provide the highest sustained DPS while building both orbs. If your only using fire, then yes, it may be better to spam just Fire Fury and Dragonblaze. but from what I read up on the KR side, the Dual dragon rotation is the superior DPS.

 

Now, keep in mind that I'm not an expert. but I think what you would need to do is to be able to show, over time, that you fire only rotation with Windstorm tops the standard Burn build with dual dragons. comparing a few skills, no matter how precise your numbers are, ends up off the mark. it's about sustained DPS with a full build, not necessarily 2 skills used during that rotation.

 

On a personal note: I tend to use Stage 1 dragonchar instead of blazing beam when soloing and doing trash 6 man runs. I like the AoE aspect better. hard content i switch over, but I haven't had any issues to date. I always get brilliant boxes in bloodshade, and I still have issues pulling aggro in PuG's. so I'm not worried about max DPS yet. BUT...when comparing, it's just better to see the overal picture. the sustained DPS over time is really what your shooting for in a build and rotation, and from what I've seen the Standard burn rotation is best for that. But honestly, in 98% of the game right now, play what you want. 

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4 minutes ago, Temjiu said:

I think your comparing the wrong skills. Blazing beam is part of a rotation to build both fire and ice orbs. the penultimate goal of both is to release Dual dragons as much as possible. using the lr2 combo has been found to provide the highest sustained DPS while building both orbs. If your only using fire, then yes, it may be better to spam just Fire Fury and Dragonblaze. but from what I read up on the KR side, the Dual dragon rotation is the superior DPS.

 

Now, keep in mind that I'm not an expert. but I think what you would need to do is to be able to show, over time, that you fire only rotation with Windstorm tops the standard Burn build with dual dragons. comparing a few skills, no matter how precise your numbers are, ends up off the mark. it's about sustained DPS with a full build, not necessarily 2 skills used during that rotation.

 

On a personal note: I tend to use Stage 1 dragonchar instead of blazing beam when soloing and doing trash 6 man runs. I like the AoE aspect better. hard content i switch over, but I haven't had any issues to date. I always get brilliant boxes in bloodshade, and I still have issues pulling aggro in PuG's. so I'm not worried about max DPS yet. BUT...when comparing, it's just better to see the overal picture. the sustained DPS over time is really what your shooting for in a build and rotation, and from what I've seen the Standard burn rotation is best for that. But honestly, in 98% of the game right now, play what you want. 

I once considered about dual dragons. But then i found you must perfectly gain 3 fire and frost orbs without generating any excessive ones. Otherwise you are actually losing dps. But it is too hard to do that ---- you can only learn one from burning soul and frost soul, meaning your fire and frost orbs can hardly be balanced.

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2 minutes ago, Strindberg said:

^ That's why rmb is spec'd so that it generates frost orbs on critical hits. 

Right. As your crit gets higher (and it will not only now but 50 as well), you will see the two averaging out allot more. if you build for it, ice builds orbs as fast as fire does. plus if you spec all the way down the correct stage, ice shoots as fast as fire, so there's no oddball rotation.

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5 hours ago, KamijoTouma said:

I once considered about dual dragons. But then i found you must perfectly gain 3 fire and frost orbs without generating any excessive ones. Otherwise you are actually losing dps. But it is too hard to do that ---- you can only learn one from burning soul and frost soul, meaning your fire and frost orbs can hardly be balanced.

In regards to this, I have followed your calculations and I entire believe that the Fire-fury + Dragonblaze is a superior dps option. At the very Least very easy to incorporate into your rotation and certainly worth it to. However regarding dual-dragons, you cannot proc more than 3 of either orb. You will gain 3 flame orbs and either use them for Dragonblaze or wait on them, all the while, being specced into the right column of Frost Palm (RMB), you automatically generate frost orbits. These cannot exceed 3. These frost orbs remain on your character and wont be used for anything other than Dual-Dragons. So you get your Dragonblaze buff on, the 40% additional Flame damage, and you would Fire-Fury again, then use these once you have your frost orbit procs to cast Dual-Dragons for free. Its instant, and you generate the Frost Orbits freely. Dual-Dragons also has the internal cooldown of 18 seconds, so you're free to continue with the rest of your rotation and Fire-Fury+Dragonblaze while sitting with 3 ice orbits up, then just Dual-Dragons off Cooldown whenever it appears.

 

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Also in regards to my previous comment, and through watching your videos, I understand that you do not actually use the RMB skill. I want to mention this tid bit of info:

RMB has a personal 0.5 sec GCD
LMB has a personal 0.5 sec GCD

Fire Mode Skills have a 1 sec GCD

 

These GCDs are seperate, and are the reason you incorporate all three into your rotation, regardless of the fact that you're using a burning build. RMB is free additional damage, and Free frost orbit procs.

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6 hours ago, Strindberg said:

^ That's why rmb is spec'd so that it generates frost orbs on critical hits. 

I fount that. However if you invest points into RMB, you will eventually get 3 fire orbs and 3 frost orbs and you have to use dual dragon which deals lower damage. And also dual dragon is an narrow AOE (2*16) which means you may miss because in many boss fights you are constantly moving. If you miss 1-2 dual dragons in a boss fight, that damage loss is basically equal to the damage that RMB can compensate you.

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26 minutes ago, KamijoTouma said:

I fount that. However if you invest points into RMB, you will eventually get 3 fire orbs and 3 frost orbs and you have to use dual dragon which deals lower damage. And also dual dragon is an narrow AOE (2*16) which means you may miss because in many boss fights you are constantly moving. If you miss 1-2 dual dragons in a boss fight, that damage loss is basically equal to the damage that RMB can compensate you.

 

 

I should clarify also that I put 3 points into Dual-Dragons. Its FM's hardest hitting ability (until you reach higher %Bonus from weapon on inferno). As an example, I have 392 AP and Dual-Dragons hits are anywhere from 12000-15000 Crits (regular damage being around 7000-8000 which is around what my other abilities CRIT for), and depending on stat buffs or fights, upwards of 16k. This is of course instant cast, and thrown in seamlessly as part of the rotation. I am level 45 HM3, to give an idea of how many skill points I have. The points I put into Dual-Dragons are not needed anywhere else in the build, everything is filled damage-wise. On top of that, for comparison, I should mention that My Dragonblaze/Blazing Beam hits tend to average between 7000-8000 damage Crits, and with procs active around 8000-9000, with specific buffs from party members such as KFM crit buff, close to, and sometimes past, 10,000 damage. Dual-Dragons is in no means weaker than your other abilities, Its your Hardest hitting ability. The use of it is nothing less than a DPS increase. Instant speed ~14000 damage every 18 seconds.

I will also note in regard to your mention about its hitbox, I have a very hard time believing you will ever Miss with this ability. On a few Unfortunate circumstances (mainly due to me not reading the boss' patterns) I wiffed the ability because of a teleport, instant mobility, or similar effect. This however, was as I would mention again, Me not correctly reading the boss' pattern. This involves a whole other arguement really just involving your ability to position as well as your knowledge of a boss fight. With the easy access and flexible skill system, you could of course spec out of this ability for any given boss, but Ive never found that even close to necessary.

Aside from that, the fact that makes it a 2x16 hitbox is nothing but a bonus in my eyes, Its an ability that absolutely POUNDS out damage, and can hit MULTIPLE TARGETS. Perfect example is spiders in skittering tunnels, talk about an easy AoE. Round spiders up with Shadow Grasp, Pound in Dual-Dragons + DragonChars, they will die almost instantaneously.

EVEN FURTHER I would like to mention that as a Force Master, without having dedicated or knowledgeable tanks in your group, you will be the person doing the most damage and generating the most threat. You should keep bosses and things that have you targeted as IMMOBILE as possible, and use divine shield, lifeleech from Frost Fury, Frost sheath, Frost armor to soak damage, while providing double joint technique CC's such as Glacial Beam and Heatwave. This allows your melee dps to actually DO the damage and their rotations the way they were meant to, so they dont waste time, dps, and cooldowns chasing bosses around. It also allows KFM's and Destroyer's the ability to grapple the boss. CCing boss's is one of the easiest and most rewarding tasks you can accomplish as a Force Master in a group setting, due to how easy it is for you to apply multiple double joint techniques, and then grant freedom for everyone to slam out damage while the boss is in a cycle of crowd controlled states.

Build: Build Link: https://bnstree.com/FM?build=450500025532256423813126533394312383325011380111063325123235332412226331249412392223722

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12 hours ago, KamijoTouma said:

I made some tests on these skills to determine which is better.

First they both fire at the same rate, they are both restricted by GCD = 1sec.

I made many attempts on these skills and calculate their average damage.

My attack power is 354

the target was under burn effect, crit is not included.

fire fury damage: 2880(3 hits, with dragon blaze buff)

dragon blaze damage: 4143

combo total damage: 7023

 

blazing beam damage: 3520, X2 = 7040

 

We can see 7023≈7040. So basically we can claim that these 2 rotations deal the same damage.

But why fire fury + dragon blaze combo is superior?

1. blazing beam costs 2 focus,. You may even want to make some RMB, that costs even more focus. Then you have to switch to ice stance to recover focus, this is a great damage loss.

fire fury + dragon blaze combo dose not require any focus. Save focus for windstorm.

2. blazing beam stacks ember slow(1 per hit on non burning target). Sometime you need fast ember to make a burn effect, blazing beam does a bad job. While fire fury stacks 3 ember and dragon blaze stacks 5.... Burn the target any time you want!

3. most blazing beam users ignore windstorm. You will lose a lot of damage if you ignore this skill. On a grappled, grabbed or phantom gripped target, it can deal 10k+ damage per second. very scary. Based on my frame by frame analysis, this skill hits every 0.2 second, 5 hits in 1 second. 2000 non crit damage and 3500 crit damage. And it provides 30%  extra crit rate  after 10 hits. So its max dps with my gear(42.44% crit rate) is (2000*0.2756+3500*0.7244)*5 = 15433 dps. Compare to fire fury + dragon blaze combo dps = 7023 / 2 = 3511.5. So i don't need to further explain how great this skill is.

Even if as a blazing beam user, you spend 3 points on windstorm, you won't always have enough focus to use it.

4. don't underestimate meteor's damage. It hits 5 times, and deals 3000(non crit) damage on a burning target. This damage is insane, its extra 4k+ dps in 5 sec. And dragon blaze descreases meteor's cd by 3 sec every use. This means -3 sec cd every 2 sec. Set a function and it is possible to determine that after 9 uses of dragon blaze, the cd of meteor is ready. Considering, dragon blaze can not be always available, we can claim that meteor's cd is decreased by half.

 

Conclusion: fire fury + dragon blaze combo is superior than  blazing beam(plus some ice skills). But blazing beam can serve as a filler skill when fire fury or dragon blaze are not available.

build link: https://bnstree.com/FM/Vkpp_8Wol

 

 

 

At the moment*, fury + blaze is not superior, it may be ahead by a small margin because of the fire buff ~100dmg from blaze and reduce cd on meteor, besides those as u said dps are almost the same.

1. Why would u even need to worry about focus management now? i no longer worries abt it whether it costs 1 or 2 or even 3, focus regen from LMB and weapon are good enough.
2. Why would u even need to stack ember faster? its already way excessive atm, X 6sec burn C 10sec burn, 1 6sec burn, so u only need 5 stacks per 5-6 sec for 1, 5 LMB already do ur job here so..
3. Yes i ignore it, but u can use it if u want the crit buff, im not saying completely no here. Sorry i didnt go in deep into how many times it can be used in 1 sec etc... But if ur saying it does high dps over a period of 1 sec.. or may be a 6 sec period of grab, ugh sure u know what does dps means? i mean i play other mmos too, a dummy dps test will at least be a minute so yeah... and more stuff abt windstorm i replied to u in ur other thread so it doesnt confuse me here with the dragon blaze discussion.

4. Hmm ok so this is a fire fury + dragon blaze favor build, im ok with tht, later on when we have 2 buffed through weapon and souls and soulshields, we can rearrange this later.

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1 hour ago, InoriYuzurihaDesu said:

At the moment*, fury + blaze is not superior, it may be ahead by a small margin because of the fire buff ~100dmg from blaze and reduce cd on meteor, besides those as u said dps are almost the same.

1. Why would u even need to worry about focus management now? i no longer worries abt it whether it costs 1 or 2 or even 3, focus regen from LMB and weapon are good enough.
2. Why would u even need to stack ember faster? its already way excessive atm, X 6sec burn C 10sec burn, 1 6sec burn, so u only need 5 stacks per 5-6 sec for 1, 5 LMB already do ur job here so..
3. Yes i ignore it, but u can use it if u want the crit buff, im not saying completely no here. Sorry i didnt go in deep into how many times it can be used in 1 sec etc... But if ur saying it does high dps over a period of 1 sec.. or may be a 6 sec period of grab, ugh sure u know what does dps means? i mean i play other mmos too, a dummy dps test will at least be a minute so yeah... and more stuff abt windstorm i replied to u in ur other thread so it doesnt confuse me here with the dragon blaze discussion.

4. Hmm ok so this is a fire fury + dragon blaze favor build, im ok with tht, later on when we have 2 buffed through weapon and souls and soulshields, we can rearrange this later.

1. in most of the time you may have enough focus but there is still a chance to run out of focus. you spend 3 focus per second and recover 1(2 if crit). So in the worst case scenario you will run out of focus in 5 sec. Let assume you use short fuse but then true profane is proc'ed. After 10sec you are really unlucky and dont land a lot of blazing palm crits. you may run out of focus in 5-10 sec. Then you need to switch to frost stance to recover focus. This can be a great damage loss. And you will also have small chance to take the advantage of windstorm.

actually in Inevia's video he ran out of focus multiple times and he had to recover focus with tornado or only LMB.

2. For most bosses you will have enough ember stacks. But what if you are facing multiple targets? Like multiple elite mobs with 300k health? you may then need fast ember to burn you current target. And the best example must be the twin bosses. With my build,  I can switch to either boss and do full dps at any time, because I have fast ember stacking.

3. 6 sec is no long, but the extra damage cannot be ignored. Its like 1k dollar bills on the ground and it only needs you to bend your waist(3 skill points) to claim it. And always remember its about 2X damage of any existing rotation.

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On 2016/2/22 at 5:43 PM, KamijoTouma said:

1. in most of the time you may have enough focus but there is still a chance to run out of focus. you spend 3 focus per second and recover 1(2 if crit). So in the worst case scenario you will run out of focus in 5 sec. Let assume you use short fuse but then true profane is proc'ed. After 10sec you are really unlucky and dont land a lot of blazing palm crits. you may run out of focus in 5-10 sec. Then you need to switch to frost stance to recover focus. This can be a great damage loss. And you will also have small chance to take the advantage of windstorm.

actually in Inevia's video he ran out of focus multiple times and he had to recover focus with tornado or only LMB.

2. For most bosses you will have enough ember stacks. But what if you are facing multiple targets? Like multiple elite mobs with 300k health? you may then need fast ember to burn you current target. And the best example must be the twin bosses. With my build,  I can switch to either boss and do full dps at any time, because I have fast ember stacking.

3. 6 sec is no long, but the extra damage cannot be ignored. Its like 1k dollar bills on the ground and it only needs you to bend your waist(3 skill points) to claim it. And always remember its about 2X damage of any existing rotation.

1. Running out of focus always happens, how to manage it well through rotations is 1 of the main difference between good fms and normal fms. Both fire c, ice x and dual dragon can be used to restore focus, also it not so much of a dps loss may be some for ice x because fire c and ice x was and are still intended for focus recovery and burn debuff rather than main dpsing skills due to their cds. Stance is never a problem, simple as RL/LR to chance stance.
2. Why u even applying ember on multiple mobs.. aoe instead? twin bosses however is a good exception, i agree with u on tht, but its not tht often, 1 out of 4 bosses in a dungeon, 25%.

3. Like u said 1k dollar bills on the ground and it only need you to bend your waist (3 skill points) to claim it, However you will need someone to drop it in the first place(destroyer or blade master for example), this is the main reason i dont spec it because i simply cant use it while soloing or on a standard st dps rotation, sad... but anyways in a party its always possible and it can be worthwhile to use coz of the crit buff and higher dmg (Only Grabbed, Phantom Gripped, Grappled enemies).

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