NueHoujuu

Remove firewalls and sentry orbs from dungeons.

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Callback   

Maybe 15 seconds from starting the fight to door close.  And have it close both ways, so if you accidentally start early you can run out of the room and the boss will reset once it realizes it's outside the door.

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Yahni   

The fire walls are so pointless. Ran ToE on my alt and had a destroyer (who could've soloed tbh) rush through and kill me and 3 others in fire. I spoke up about it, as we were just 3 seconds behind and I wondered how they couldn't wait three seconds? After that they proceeded to personally target me and my guild mate specifically by trying to kill us both with fire. Was done at that point. I hate the fire walls, and whoever made them didn't take anything into consideration. This dumb system is what makes me miss FFXIV even more.

Edited by Yahni

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Crash   
1 hour ago, Cherish said:

I actually like the firewall and turrets I think it adds another element of danger to the fights. 

 

The game mechanics are not what is at fault it is the inconsiderate players who cant wait 5 seconds to be sure everyone is in the room.  I guess the only saving grace though is that you still get the win even while you lay face planted and burnt to a cinder.

 

You seem to be failing to realize that it's not a "mechanic" at all, it's a feature, a feature that's designed to basically close off the area to prevent players from leaving or re-entering after they died, so once again, not a mechanic, but a badly implemented feature due to the fact that a a simply door would of sufficed.

 

Following that, like someone already mentioned with the 2 widow bosses, what happened to me once is as we were fighting in the center of the darn room, I got hit by something which knocked me back and left me cc'd, then the other boss decided to target me and sent me flying further back and landed me in the fire, don't go telling me that's a "mechanic" when it's a clear design flaw with the firewall being a feature that needs to be changed into a simple door.

 

Also yesturday on the same boss fight where I got knocked into the fire, before we even started the boss we had 1 guy die to the fire as we started even though we all waited for everyone to get in and be ready, I didn't know where exactly the fire was and I assume he didn't either, long story short is that his arse was barely grazing the fire and he got killed off right there, so a 6 person fight got turned into a 4man due to firewalls that arn't made clear where they're going to be put up and me that got smashed from the center of the room straight into the fire at the other side, great "feature", right?

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Meerkat   
4 hours ago, pingal1ty said:

I think you guys are just taking it too seriously. The fire mechanic is there to prevent you to come back if you die at the boss fight. Thats 1 use, the other use its to actually kill you if you do a wrong step. This mechanic its awesome, but as you can see there's from million players playing this game only 5 forum pages of ppl who can't deal with it.

 

Guess who's wrong.

 

There's a test I like to use when evaluating how good a game mechanic is.

 

It's called the "twelve year old test."  If a twelve year old can come up with a better mechanic, you've *cricket*ed up.

 

I asked a twelve year old ( not really ) and the twelve year old said, "why not put a wall, like rocks falling down."

 

That requires some tweaking ( screen should shake and dust fall from the ceiling or something to indicate it's falling down soon, thematically doesn't work in all dungeons, etc. ), but overall, it's a better mechanic, so the people who came up with the mechanic *cricket*ed up.

 

So... I guess that means you're wrong.

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LagunaL8   
12 hours ago, DrowningEarth said:

The problem lies with the differences in culture. Asians tend to value game etiquette more - and rushing dungeons/getting their party killed on firewalls isn't common enough to be problematic over there. This was also pointed out in the thread about faction outfits. It is rare to see players on Asian servers picking on lowbies from the opposing faction or picking off idlers in town. They still have dungeon leechers, but not nearly as many as we do.

 

In the west, where instant gratification and self-interest tend to be more prevalent, it is not surprising to see stuff like this happening on a much larger scale.

Ye the forum shows alot of western 'etiquette' lol

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Hauko   

I see everyone's problem with the fire wall but the game is mainly skill base. It's your timing vs the boss timing you know that red circle or line that show up on your screen. So yeah i agree some spots are dumb on where they put it like the Widows in Bloodshade Harbor. Yet some are fine it's just you need a decent group that are good at waiting for others. So if you are going cross server which i am sure this is the reason you are getting burn then you have to blame the server they came from and not the fire wall in general. You have a ton of players that think they can just do whatever they want and if you don't reason with them then it's on you. I mean i am not going to complain but just learn and get better because i made mistakes even in the cross server but only got kill once by the fire in cross server but more by ppl training mobs in Pigsty because they couldn't do it right. So yeah i did once get push into the fire but that was on my own fault for not being aware on where i was at in the Skittering Tunnels. Also if you are push back its close to the fire never hit F to do a backstep you will get burn easy. To me the fire wall test my abilities and help my time reaction with the bosses without having to move around as much. So to me if it stays or goes it doesn't matter as the fire wall is like "Oh its the last boss" then you are block off from running away so ppl won't try to leave you if things get tough.

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14 hours ago, fruitie said:

You realise 1 million people don't visit the forum right? Not only that but people defend blatantly broken stuff all of the time out of bias. You show a high amount of bias instead of having a proper discussion. Lastly the OPs idea isn't mutually exclusive to a death arena. Anyway while it is ridiculous that people who start the boss early can ruin a fight or at best prolong things, it's not the worst issue that can happen so people aren't going to be overly concerned. If it can be fixed, why not consider it though?

 

The 'deal with it' mentality is really immature when there's little avoidance. Am I meant to deal with ninja looters too? Someone else made a valid point that if you detest running together so much, play other games or run your own groups rather using the cross server dungeon or whatever.

Yo boy, I haven't said anything about ninja-looters. Not in this thread, when I said its to ban them. Lets make things clear, I am having a discussion with you, but you guys are blind and don't want to listen to the "its your fault for dying on a fire" because yeah its more comfortable to complain in the forum and do all the dungeon brainafk rather than actually participate actively and deal with all the traps, including the fire.

 

Really, the game been out in Korea for almost 4 years, yet the fire is still there. The only one they removed was at tomb of exiles on some miniboss because yeah.... people stop on teleportal to win the bid on jewellery and its common by the time they want to join the next fight they just get burned so basically that one was missplaced or had really bad intentions. OK I can understand that one, but I can't understand you guys ask to remove something that has been there since beginning and its part of the game. What's next? Ask to remove walls too so you can backpedal infinitelly when boss is chasing you and don't die? Oh wait probably you guys would even enjoy that for sure but I am not.

 

Sorry for you if I think different but bashing on my opinion won't make yours any better.

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11 hours ago, Meerkat said:

 

There's a test I like to use when evaluating how good a game mechanic is.

 

It's called the "twelve year old test."  If a twelve year old can come up with a better mechanic, you've *cricket*ed up.

 

I asked a twelve year old ( not really ) and the twelve year old said, "why not put a wall, like rocks falling down."

 

That requires some tweaking ( screen should shake and dust fall from the ceiling or something to indicate it's falling down soon, thematically doesn't work in all dungeons, etc. ), but overall, it's a better mechanic, so the people who came up with the mechanic *cricket*ed up.

 

So... I guess that means you're wrong.

As said in previous post, how about no? The fire is there for a reason, why change it to something that should alert you?

 

A 12 year old boy also can tell you that if whoever invented this mechanic didn't think about it when designing it then its because it was ment to be like this.

 

Just get over it, the fire is like it is, deal or quit, and not being rude with you or something, but I am really surprised that people come into the forum to whine for something that is really stupid, you guys have time to complain for this thing better complain for the bots, the scammers, the marketplace being sabotaged by few very rich players and other stuff that I do believe its 100x more important than a fire that just killed you, for freak sake.

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fruitie   
6 hours ago, pingal1ty said:

Yo boy, I haven't said anything about ninja-looters. Not in this thread, when I said its to ban them. Lets make things clear, I am having a discussion with you, but you guys are blind and don't want to listen to the "its your fault for dying on a fire" because yeah its more comfortable to complain in the forum and do all the dungeon brainafk rather than actually participate actively and deal with all the traps, including the fire.

 

Really, the game been out in Korea for almost 4 years, yet the fire is still there. The only one they removed was at tomb of exiles on some miniboss because yeah.... people stop on teleportal to win the bid on jewellery and its common by the time they want to join the next fight they just get burned so basically that one was missplaced or had really bad intentions. OK I can understand that one, but I can't understand you guys ask to remove something that has been there since beginning and its part of the game. What's next? Ask to remove walls too so you can backpedal infinitelly when boss is chasing you and don't die? Oh wait probably you guys would even enjoy that for sure but I am not.

 

Sorry for you if I think different but bashing on my opinion won't make yours any better.

You weren't trying to have a discussion. You specifically said, "Guess who's wrong". It is hypocritical that you sarcastically apologise for having a different opinion while denying everyone else's. Discussions aren't one way streets.

 

You act as if adding doors would be some sort of massive detrimental addition to the game. They already exist in dungeons themselves to move onto the next area, what's the big issue with adding it to the boss room so that everyone can get a chance to participate. It's clearly not good for the group to have them killed before even reaching the boss. The only one to blame is the rusher, and if that can be fixed without a detrimental affect, why not add it? There's a variety of reasons why it happens, I know for sure that at certain times it won't allow me to use my stamina even when not in combat. Even being in the boss room, why should I be punished because of impatience towards others?

 

As for bots, I don't have any complaints, it happens in any MMO and especially more in f2p MMOs. They'll work on them but it's always going to be there. Scammers are obviously scum. Marketplace exploitation also happens in every MMO, but I'm unconvinced it's an issue. People like to point the finger too easy on that sort of stuff, and even then it's a free market. If people don't buy inflated prices then the value goes down. Unless you're saying that they're the cause of marketplace downtimes that is, then obviously that is a bigger issue. That doesn't mean other things can't be discussed though.

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Luffs   

i think the 4 man dungeons should keep the firewall, while every other dungeon have the one u suggested

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1 hour ago, fruitie said:

You weren't trying to have a discussion. You specifically said, "Guess who's wrong". It is hypocritical that you sarcastically apologise for having a different opinion while denying everyone else's. Discussions aren't one way streets.

 

You act as if adding doors would be some sort of massive detrimental addition to the game. They already exist in dungeons themselves to move onto the next area, what's the big issue with adding it to the boss room so that everyone can get a chance to participate. It's clearly not good for the group to have them killed before even reaching the boss. The only one to blame is the rusher, and if that can be fixed without a detrimental affect, why not add it? There's a variety of reasons why it happens, I know for sure that at certain times it won't allow me to use my stamina even when not in combat. Even being in the boss room, why should I be punished because of impatience towards others?

 

As for bots, I don't have any complaints, it happens in any MMO and especially more in f2p MMOs. They'll work on them but it's always going to be there. Scammers are obviously scum. Marketplace exploitation also happens in every MMO, but I'm unconvinced it's an issue. People like to point the finger too easy on that sort of stuff, and even then it's a free market. If people don't buy inflated prices then the value goes down. Unless you're saying that they're the cause of marketplace downtimes that is, then obviously that is a bigger issue. That doesn't mean other things can't be discussed though.

 

Yo fruitie my boy please read all I posted before saying such stuff.

 

As for what you say about a door, ok great idea but the fire is way better. You want a discussion, right? so OK first let me say having more or less reason goes anywhere, because at the end its the objective the important thing, and seeing it as an objective, this is what firewall brings :

 

- Can kill you if you slack way too much or deny you to participate in the fight (next time stay prepared for it, is that hard to do?)

- Can kill you if you do the wrong step (next time control the area where you are fighting)

- No noobie "I die press 4 and come back". Which actually means you will have to learn to survive. (next time you read a guide on how to play your class defensively if you struggle to survive)

 

And as for market, yes there are robots scanning to buy at a price and resell more expensive. Same as some players do but just automatized. Why do you think marketplace was crashing 24/7 few weeks back? it was flooded by those robot petitions. Do you think the supply or the demand has changed that much? I think it even increased with Pirate stuff, yet the marketplace is "fixed" and they (NCSoft) wont tell you but the robot thing happens in all the other versions of the game, yet they don't change the coding just to make it harder for the bots.

 

And yeah I agree with you ninjaloot is scum and imho they don't even have a place in the game, but since every nerd can have a computer nowadays we gotta deal with it.

 

And as for the "guess who's wrong", go read all posts, I've been even called "dumb" for saying my opinion about the matter by probably a 12yo kid that can't deal with the fire.

 

Anyways, discussing something that's been there 4 years its pointless for me so I am out, enjoy the discussion with the raging kids because that's what you'll find in here, complains, rages and ppls in bad mood. Noone will come and say "hey great game, keep up the good work" unfortunatelly.

 

 

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fruitie   
32 minutes ago, pingal1ty said:

 

Yo fruitie my boy please read all I posted before saying such stuff.

 

As for what you say about a door, ok great idea but the fire is way better. You want a discussion, right? so OK first let me say having more or less reason goes anywhere, because at the end its the objective the important thing, and seeing it as an objective, this is what firewall brings :

 

- Can kill you if you slack way too much or deny you to participate in the fight (next time stay prepared for it, is that hard to do?)

- Can kill you if you do the wrong step (next time control the area where you are fighting)

- No noobie "I die press 4 and come back". Which actually means you will have to learn to survive. (next time you read a guide on how to play your class defensively if you struggle to survive)

 

And as for market, yes there are robots scanning to buy at a price and resell more expensive. Same as some players do but just automatized. Why do you think marketplace was crashing 24/7 few weeks back? it was flooded by those robot petitions. Do you think the supply or the demand has changed that much? I think it even increased with Pirate stuff, yet the marketplace is "fixed" and they (NCSoft) wont tell you but the robot thing happens in all the other versions of the game, yet they don't change the coding just to make it harder for the bots.

 

And yeah I agree with you ninjaloot is scum and imho they don't even have a place in the game, but since every nerd can have a computer nowadays we gotta deal with it.

 

And as for the "guess who's wrong", go read all posts, I've been even called "dumb" for saying my opinion about the matter by probably a 12yo kid that can't deal with the fire.

 

Anyways, discussing something that's been there 4 years its pointless for me so I am out, enjoy the discussion with the raging kids because that's what you'll find in here, complains, rages and ppls in bad mood. Noone will come and say "hey great game, keep up the good work" unfortunatelly.

 

 

The thing is that it isn't an effective slacker kill system now is it? A real slacker would be way behind and see the fire and just leech the others doing the boss. Also as said it doesn't help those who are accidentally stuck in combat because others rushed ahead or stamina in general is just bugged. None of those two options are a sign of someone not pulling their weight but they still are the ones that get punished for the system. Alternatively it could be someones first time and tehy may need help (especially when add skipping is involved. It is therefore in the communities interest to help them so that the experience as a whole is improved (otherwise if one doens't want to they can form their own groups). Personally it's happened to me maybe a couple of times, and happened to party members some others. Either way it wastes my time. There are times when it's not so bad though, one person went afk without saying and someone started the boss, they were like "wtf" but I couldn't really blame the one who didn't wait. Most of my experiences is that it would've just been common courtesy to wait a little.

 

As for the flame wall, if they really wanted that mechanic, they could still have it in if they wanted to, just that the door would allow you to get past it. I'm not sure that is actually the design of it though, they seem to be placed in order to block entrances and exits rather than bordering the arena so again don't seem to be an effective solution to careful play. The OP also did mention that someone should not be able to reenter upon death unless there's a wipe.

 

I'm not sure why we have to deal with ninja looters if there's a solution (not allowing settings to be changed during a boss fight seems like an elegant solution. Anyway that's off topic.

 

As for anyone on the defensive making petty comments, I'm not trying to say those are ok, but trying to put down others holding a certain opinion doesn't really make you any better. People on all sides need to be more mature. There's a lot of immaturity in general on these forums and that's a problem (though I do prefer freedom over ridiculous restrictive control of how people post). I also share your viewpoint that certain people seem to be overly critical instead of enjoying what we have. The sky isn't falling as much as some people make it out to be. Still the game is new to most of us, and giving suggestions can only be a good thing. Even if it was out longer people should still give feedback if people think there are things that can improve the player experience, even if it's just a little thing. I should also probably stop replying to certain topics earlier before it ends with people just repeating themselves :D.

Edited by fruitie

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Xenosaga   

Let me say about firewalls:

- they destroys the defence part (if you made mistake and SS inside firewall....)

- players who ressed themselves will put at begin of the dungeon. But firewall makes impossible to enter fight.

- Some mobs can throw you in firewall. So mad.

- Sentrys at firewall have no sense. You cannot go past firewall but why sentrys? If you just come near, you will oneshotted down. What is the reason for sentrys? Nothing.

 

To sum up, firewall are not fair. In other MMOs there are solutions:

- special hidden wall, with some glow. You cannot leave arena.

- visible zone, which turn in red to let you know arena is closed. You can still enter arena but cannot go out.

 

You can still defence yourself without danger. That makes fight better and more fair.

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4 hours ago, pingal1ty said:

 

 

 

As for what you say about a door, ok great idea but the fire is way better. You want a discussion, right? so OK first let me say having more or less reason goes anywhere, because at the end its the objective the important thing, and seeing it as an objective, this is what firewall brings :

 

- Can kill you if you slack way too much or deny you to participate in the fight (next time stay prepared for it, is that hard to do?)

- Can kill you if you do the wrong step (next time control the area where you are fighting)

- No noobie "I die press 4 and come back". Which actually means you will have to learn to survive. (next time you read a guide on how to play your class defensively if you struggle to survive)

 

 

 

 

Hypothetical situation. You are in a 4-man BSH/Poh group. You are right outside Poharan's or the Widow Twins' room and one of your team members, a FM, is 15-30 seconds behind due to getting hit/stunned by mobs along the way, or unable to windwalk due to being stuck in combat mode.

 

Do you press the attack or wait?

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Meerkat   
12 hours ago, pingal1ty said:

As said in previous post, how about no? The fire is there for a reason, why change it to something that should alert you?

 

A 12 year old boy also can tell you that if whoever invented this mechanic didn't think about it when designing it then its because it was ment to be like this.

 

Just get over it, the fire is like it is, deal or quit, and not being rude with you or something, but I am really surprised that people come into the forum to whine for something that is really stupid, you guys have time to complain for this thing better complain for the bots, the scammers, the marketplace being sabotaged by few very rich players and other stuff that I do believe its 100x more important than a fire that just killed you, for freak sake.

 

A twelve year old child is going to tell you a fire that comes from nowhere, turns an entire region into an instant kill zone, with no warning at all is bullshit.

 

And the twelve year old child is right because why isn't there a warning?  Why doesn't a physical wall just block the path?  Obviously better solutions.  Why?  Because players don't like to get killed for bullshit reasons or for no reason at all, and that's what that fire does.  It kills you for no reason at all when a non-kill physical barrier would've accomplished the exact same thing.

 

But since you're the type who apparently just follows orders because that's the way things are meant, then well, this is all wasted effort.

Edited by Meerkat

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On 2/23/2016 at 8:14 PM, Riliane said:

Yeah, I know that. But that's the fault of the idiot who doesn't like to wait for anyone.

 

It's his fault he's trolling, but it's also NC's fault they're giving him such great tools to troll with.  It couldn't happen without *both* the attitude of being willing to troll, *and* the game systems that allow the trolling to be successful.  And even if NC can't stop the one they certainly can stop the other; that's what this thread is about.

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Eiria   
12 hours ago, Partholonian said:

 

It's his fault he's trolling, but it's also NC's fault they're giving him such great tools to troll with.  It couldn't happen without *both* the attitude of being willing to troll, *and* the game systems that allow the trolling to be successful.  And even if NC can't stop the one they certainly can stop the other; that's what this thread is about.

Exactly. You can't stop the trolls and griefers from griefing with the tools they have available. You can remove those tools and give them fewer options to grief WITH, however, and it literally hurts nobody.

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Niskka   

+10 I only briefly read but there has been numerous times when I would sit by the door and eat to recover hp then someone goes and atk the boss thinking no one will atk it and i'll get killed by the fire. Secondly when people do lag behind and they die by the fire revive and runs back only to get killed by the orb not taking in my warning about it still gets close and killed by it. That orb is not necessary when you have a fire pit that still kills you. It's either the orb or the fire bit or none at all and go for the door option. then again some people graphics can sometimes can't keep up and it'll load in slowly for them to not able to see things until the last min. I have had that happened to me in Skitter when a group start fighting the first spider mini boss, my comp lagged and i didn't even see the fire/orb and died or someone probably start up the boss while i was trying to make it in. Either way that orb/fire pit isn't worth the durability lost.  

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