Remove firewalls and sentry orbs from dungeons.

[GnatB]

One thing I'd change about the wall is make it push you into the room before it becomes lethal if you're standing where it pops, or at least just start off as slightly damaging then increase to insta-death.

 

I think I've died more often to the wall appearing on top of me, (not quite far enough in the room, or just trying to hang back waiting for stragglers) than I have to bosses.

 

Funniest time was I was on low health, so stopped just outside to eat dumpling to catch up on health.  BOOM firewall.

 

 

But yeah, I'd be inclined to argue in favor of an airlock mechanic.  1 wall to prevent you from attacking the boss until everybody in the instance gets close, then wall appears behind and the wall in front poofs.  Working on a lower level character, and many of the lvl 45's just running through narrows are annoyingly inconsiderate.  "Just run past the mobs" (which is what one actually said) doesn't work so well when they can shoot you, stun you, and kill you in a few hits.  I could be misremembering, but I think I even missed out on one of the chests because I hadn't yet gotten to the proper "phase" when the boss was offed.  (wasn't the last boss)

[NueHoujuu]

You're going from someone tripping the fire wall on people by rushing through the dungeon, something nobody can stop you from doing, to people lying about which direction to go on a map which anyone can kinda deal with anyway.

 

Anyway, that's still just using chat to troll. Opening your map/quest journal can't affect anyone.

 

 

I'm not a fan of pointlessly bad game design. These walls don't stop leechers at all from leeching. There's no point in discouraging players from standing away from somewhere when you can just lock them out of the location in a way that isn't horribly bad.

 

Don't know where you're going with the fire is hot thing or acting like people think we're immune to the fire walls when they one shot you.

 

Don't know why you think people already aren't staying away from the fire wall...???

 

I'm not a fan of hand holding either, nor am I a fan of pointless inconvenience. They should give us challenging content like Junghado. Not challenging content like "lol don't stand next to the ranged kill wall" and "lol better hope some griefer doesn't rush to the boss room and lock/kill everyone else".

[Zarec]

Just now, NueHoujuu said:

You're going from someone tripping the fire wall on people by rushing through the dungeon, something nobody can stop you from doing, to people lying about which direction to go on a map which anyone can kinda deal with anyway.

 

Anyway, that's still just using chat to troll. Opening your map/quest journal can't affect anyone.

 

 

I'm not a fan of pointlessly bad game design. These walls don't stop leechers at all from leeching. There's no point in discouraging players from standing away from somewhere when you can just lock them out of the location in a way that isn't horribly bad.

 

Don't know where you're going with the fire is hot thing or acting like people think we're immune to the fire walls when they one shot you.

 

Don't know why you think people already aren't staying away from the fire wall...???

 

If you stay away from the fire one of two things happen.

 

The person who triggered it is now either dead or the trigger for it is dead and you can no progress as normal.

 

Still not seeing a problem here...either way the thing blocking you from progressing is now gone.

[DrowningEarth]

16 minutes ago, Zarec said:

 

 

The additional aspect is the human interference.  These items do not troll the players on their own.  First thing when you see a giant wall of fire should be to stay away from it.  If it can kill you in life why do you think you would be immune in a virtual world?  It isn't rocket science.

 

You don't need communication to troll someone with the walls or turrets (they were designed to kill afk players trying to leech.  They are present in every region of the game.  Why is it americans have such a hard time realizing FIRE IS HOT?  Or don't stand there.  Many games have similar mehcanics in areas of their games to discourage people standing in a certain place.  

 

Sorry i'm not a fan of hand holding but then again Demon Souls/Dark Souls is my favorite franchise.

I've never seen these things ever kill an AFK (firewalls don't appear in spawn zones, and they only appear in the 15-25m leading to a boss), and they don't stop leechers because players can bid, dead or alive, and still claim quest completion at the end.

 

Removing firewalls will not impact the gameplay for players who currently don't have an issue with them. People complaining about this [removal of firewalls] make as much sense as the people arguing against making Hongmoon store costumes account bound. The change does not affect you adversely, versus something like a class/item/boss nerf.

[NueHoujuu]

2 minutes ago, Zarec said:

 

If you stay away from the fire one of two things happen.

 

The person who triggered it is now either dead or the trigger for it is dead and you can no progress as normal.

 

Still not seeing a problem here...either way the thing blocking you from progressing is now gone.

 

The problem isn't about progress being stopped.

 

It's about improving the game.

[Zarec]

Just now, DrowningEarth said:

I've never seen these things ever kill an AFK (firewalls don't appear in spawn zones, and they only appear in the 15-25m leading to a boss), and they don't stop leechers because players can bid, dead or alive.

 

Removing firewalls will not impact the gameplay for players who currently don't have an issue with them. People complaining about this [removal of firewalls] make as much sense as the people arguing against making Hongmoon store costumes account bound. The change does not affect you adversely, versus something like a class/item/boss nerf.

 

It is designed to block off an area.  Thats the job of the turret or firewall.  You are complaining about it doing its job.  You dying doesn't effect yoru equipment in anyway (asside from possible weapon damage).  If you want to complain about dying to asinine things if you ever played some korean games you dropped your most expensive item that players THEN could pick up when you died. That woudl be something to complain about.  

[Zarec]

2 minutes ago, NueHoujuu said:

 

The problem isn't about progress being stopped.

 

It's about improving the game.

 

It doesn't improve the game.  So you died because you were dumb enough to run into it.  Not the games fault..that would be yours.

[DrowningEarth]

1 minute ago, Zarec said:

 

It is designed to block off an area.  Thats the job of the turret or firewall.  You are complaining about it doing its job.  You dying doesn't effect yoru equipment in anyway (asside from possible weapon damage).  If you want to complain about dying to asinine things if you ever played some korean games you dropped your most expensive item that players THEN could pick up when you died. That woudl be something to complain about.  

You're missing my point. You originally claimed these were countermeasures to stop AFK's and leechers. They don't stop them in any way whatsoever.

[Amakussa]

You're really stupid. those have been around for years so they arent going anywhere. deal with it.

[Zarec]

2 minutes ago, DrowningEarth said:

You're missing my point. You originally claimed these were countermeasures to stop AFK's and leechers. They don't stop them in any way whatsoever.

 

They work great on afk players that stop there or those not paying attention.  working as intended.

 

[NueHoujuu]

lol

[Karurosuda]

Bad design exists,  when the actions of a player allow them to inhibit another without voluntary consent or them breaking multiplayer game etiquette (being a leecher or afk without say), all because of a design factor, that's called bad game design. 

AFKers and leechers aren't affected when they sit outside the killzone (which is most of the time, leechers in the killzone is too situational to matter, most of them aren't that stupid) and players still handling mobs grouping up on them while someone mindlessly goes ahead to spring an otherwise unavoidable design trap just because he wanted a head start are wrongly punished on someone else's screwup. 

[Zarec]

2 minutes ago, Karurosuda said:

Bad design exists,  when the actions of a player allow them to inhibit another without voluntary consent or them breaking multiplayer game etiquette (being a leecher or afk without say), all because of a design factor, that's called bad game design. 

AFKers and leechers aren't affected when they sit outside the killzone (which is most of the time, leechers in the killzone is too situational to matter, most of them aren't that stupid) and players still handling mobs grouping up on them while someone mindlessly goes ahead to spring an otherwise unavoidable design trap just because he wanted a head start are wrongly punished on someone else's screwup. 

 

Its more just bad players.  If you want a dummy proof game...play quarters..thats about as dummy proof as you can ever get.

 

(EDIT:  Not the drinking game, although more fun)

[Hitokiri]

3 hours ago, NueHoujuu said:

Just bloating up one of the suggestions from the megathread in my signature...

 

But those firewalls are annoying and pointless. Why do we have to be insta killed for not getting into the room if someone rushes ahead of all of us, or if we just happen to lag, or if we eat a dumpling to heal at the wrong place?

 

Please replace the firewalls with this type of door.

 

Don't forget to make the door appear different for each player. The door should allow everyone to pass it once. If you die and respawn outside of it, it becomes the red door and you can't go back in until all party members have beaten the boss or died to the boss.

 

If one player dies and respawns, he should see the red door - while another player who hasn't even gotten into the boss room once, should see a different open version of the door.

 

This is to prevent players from telling someone to wait outside the door so they can "keep the door open for people who died to come back in for infinite lives". Must be on a player to player basis.

 

Where is the problem u get the drops so and so? Or u really worried about those who rush?

[Zarec]

1 minute ago, Hitokiri said:

 

Where is the problem u get the drops so and so? Or u really worried about those who rush?

 

I think they are worried about being punished by those who rush.  To be honest the simple answer is DON'T PUG....but that requires them to go outside of their comfort zone and make friends.

[NueHoujuu]

The point is that it's an annoying mechanic. I don't particularly care about rushers that much but it's a waste of time if someone trips the fire on you and if you want to respawn you have to wait to get res'd or respawn and run all the way through the dungeon.

 

I mean after you get killed the first time you learn 'oh it's there', but it's still pointless and in poor taste.

[DrowningEarth]

17 minutes ago, Zarec said:

 

They work great on afk players that stop there or those not paying attention.  working as intended.

 

You still don't get it.

People complain about AFK's and leechers because they do not participate, yet they still receive dungeon rewards, question completion, and loot bids. The firewall does not resolve this in any way whatsoever. You should have noticed this easily in the course of going from 1-45.

 

What it does punish are players who are trying to contribute, but get stiffed by someone's mistake or intentional blunder.

 

Face it, removing the firewall will not make things worse for people who do clan/friend-only runs. There's zero reason to support keeping the firewall.

[Karurosuda]

Just now, Zarec said:

 

Its more just bad players.  If you want a dummy proof game...play quarters..thats about as dummy proof as you can ever get.

players can't control the actions of other players,  stop using the bad players excuse as a scapegoat to justify bad design.  In situations where a death barrier is put into place in other games,  at the very least a timed warning flashes on screen to alert players so theyre at least aware and able to take action. That's not players being bad, that's common practice in the game industry, it doesn't hold your hand,  but it isn't a punishing factor either. 

Hard factors of games are one thing,  people have to get over those, because they have viable options for the situation, they just have to act on them; punishing factors are another thing, and when your options are limited or nonexistent (not everyone can have their friends on when you play, which is the whole point to the party finder), it just spells out bad design and warrants revision. 

 

In regards to Asian servers,  if there's anything I've learned from playing kr and jp, those people are hivemind and retain most of their mmo etiquette, so things like these are mostly a non-issue.

 

[Zarec]

Just now, DrowningEarth said:

You still don't get it.

People complain about AFK's and leechers because they do not participate, yet they still receive dungeon rewards, question completion, and loot bids. The firewall does not resolve this in any way whatsoever. You should have noticed this easily in the course of going from 1-45.

 

What it does punish are players who are trying to contribute, but get stiffed by someone's mistake or intentional blunder.

 

Face it, removing the firewall will not make things worse for people who do clan/friend-only runs. There's zero reason to support keeping the firewall.

 

Your answer to both problems is DON'T PUG.  Make friends, ask in faction chat, get into a guild.  You have a ton of options available to you but you go with whining about it rather than finding a common solution that solves the problem from teh getgo.  

[NueHoujuu]

Actually the only reason to support keeping the firewall is if it's too much work for the developers to switch out the doors with.

[Zarec]

1 minute ago, Karurosuda said:

players can't control the actions of other players,  stop using the bad players excuse as a scapegoat to justify bad design.  In situations where a death barrier is put into place in other games,  at the very least a timed warning flashes on screen to alert players so theyre at least aware and able to take action. That's not players being bad, that's common practice in the game industry, it doesn't hold your hand,  but it isn't a punishing factor either. 

Hard factors of games are one thing,  people have to get over those, because they have viable options for the situation, they just have to act on them; punishing factors are another thing, and when your options are limited or nonexistent (not everyone can have their friends on when you play, which is the whole point to the party finder), it just spells out bad design and warrants revision. 

 

In regards to Asian servers,  if there's anything I've learned from playing kr and jp, those people are hivemind and retain most of their mmo etiquette, so things like these are mostly a non-issue.

 

 

If you keep running into the same thing more than once.....darwinism at work.  This is why we need warning labels on everything in america.....smdh

[DrowningEarth]

5 minutes ago, Zarec said:

 

Your answer to both problems is DON'T PUG.  Make friends, ask in faction chat, get into a guild.  You have a ton of options available to you but you go with whining about it rather than finding a common solution that solves the problem from teh getgo.  

Why are you whining about a change that does NOT affect you? It's clearly a nuisance mechanic, and your opinion is a clear minority (if not irrelevant) in this thread.

[NueHoujuu]

ppl still taking this guy seriously lol

 

Obviously he doesn't understand we have to remove fire wall because fire is dangerous , can kill u

[Zarec]

2 minutes ago, NueHoujuu said:

ppl still taking this guy seriously lol

 

Obviously he doesn't understand we have to remove fire wall because fire is dangerous , can kill u

 

Bout the only smart thing you said.  Yes fire is hot.  Stay out of it.

[Karurosuda]

Just now, Zarec said:

 

If you keep running into the same thing more than once.....darwinism at work.  This is why we need warning labels on everything in america.....smdh

Why are you applying a concept like that to a video game,  where things should be more or less equal opportunity.

You're just full of scapegoats aren't you? A rule of design is that a design shouldn't frustrate a player if it hinders them in a way that isn't directly their fault; a design done right would be overcome-able through effort or the right course of direct player action,  not dictated by situation like this flaw is. All games are designed based on this format,  and some games fall short because they don't take it all into consideration. But Ive yapped enough trying to convince a minority otherwise.