Huan

Petition for Vote-Kick option in Cross Server Dungeons

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Fyk0   
8 minutes ago, NueHoujuu said:

Indeed, which is why we need AFK detection.

 

 

As far as "contribution detection" goes, a good threshold would have to be found if they were to implement something like 'deal 5% of the boss's health to bid' or hit the boss or be in the room.

 

Personally i'd go with the x% dmg, as classes seem to be able to all do their own damage in some way and if you're really just not even hitting like 20k on a boss with 1m hp you don't really deserve the drop. Even a maxed player can't just one hit kill the boss in blackram narrows, granted he can still kill it fast.

Damage contribution system could be abused hard because of the fire mechanic when boss fight starts. Even at the moment it's not rare that people on quick runs rushes to the boss and someone who is playing just normally instantly dies at the door, and so couldn't get anything out of it. Some people could rush to boss just to purposely kill a few at the door so there will be less competition for loot, but still que with others to make the run faster.

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An AFK system wouldn't work lol. These people aren't actually AFK, they're just too lazy to help, and then they bid on the last boss' loot. A system to kick AFKs would be worthless when they just have to move a few steps every 30 seconds or so.

 

A vote kick option is needed, and I've seen this in many other games. Sure, you have jerks that try to kick you for no reason, but those are few and far between. The tradeoff between AFKers not being able to leech and win valuable items or risking getting kicked for a stupid reason is worthwhile. And in a PUG, how likely is it that every other person in the party is an elitist ass? Not very. And if you get kicked for being level 24 in a level 45 dungeon, that's not really unwarranted (yes, that's actually possible).

 

Making it so you can't vote kick after a certain time limit or after the first kill would be stupid. All they'd have to do is pretend they're contributing for the first boss and then just sit there for the rest of the run. They'd still not help on last boss at all, leech, possibly win the loot, and you wouldn't be able to kick them if they hadn't moved since first boss when you reached the last one.

 

I do agree you shouldn't be able to vote kick in combat. That's a given. But vote kick needs to be added, and anyone that says it would be abused too much obviously hasn't had much experience in games that utilize this. AFKing is becoming more and more widespread because NC is doing absolutely nothing to deter it.

 

 

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^ 5% should come with afk detection as well, if they 'only' do 5% thing, that won't really stop people who are actually AFK from being AFK.

 

i'd probably combine 5% hp on boss to access boss-bids, AFK detection that will mark a player as AFK for all to see, and option to vote kick only if the player is marked as AFK.

 

The length of time for AFK should probably be 1min30s or however long the offline timer is. 1min30s is a very "short" time for an afk player and a very "long" time for people actively playing the game.

 

As I mentioned before, fire walls need to be removed and replaced with a door that every player can pass only once - if you die and respawn, you can't pass it anymore. If one person rushes ahead, the other 5 can still get in for their first entry. The killing fire and turret nonsense just shouldn't be there.

 

-----

 

The people saying vote kick would be abused are saying that because they have experience of that very thing happening...

 

If people can't votekick me while in combat, well, you are counted as "in combat" just for swinging your fist around, even if you hit nothing...

Edited by NueHoujuu

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1 minute ago, NueHoujuu said:

 

 

I think you're forgetting things that were said only a few posts up.

I think things can be done to prevent vote trolling in the first place.  Namely:

1: Add a per-player or per-party cooldown to the vote feature.  You can only initiate a vote to kick once every 3-5 minutes.  So make it count.

2: Disable kick voting during combat and while loot is being distributed.

3: Require a consensus (not a majority) to pass the vote.  The player who is the target of the vote is not counted, but all the remaining 2 or 4 players must agree.

 

I can probably come up with a few more, and hopefully others will chime in.

 

You can't put a banished player back into the party.  You probably also can't give him the loot he was denied a chance at.  But you can TAKE the loot from people who abuse the votekick, and you CAN give them warnings and other account flags up to and including permanent bans.  If it's a specific group of players vote trolling through many successive dungeons that absolutely IS something that can be detected by a GM/customer service and absolutely SHOULD be dealt with appropriately.

 

If it's just a group of guildmates who did it one time to help a guildy, that's probably not an actionable offense.  So yeah, they'll probably get away with it and somebody is going to have a bad day.  I agree, that is a flaw in the system.  But I must stress, once again, that the potential for this problem (because it only exists as a potential) is far outweighed by what's happening in the game right now without a vote kick.

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7 hours ago, Huan said:

Reason: There are too many people who are AFK in dungeons in entrance, just bidding as boss is killed. Too bad noone can do anything about it. 

 

There's no need for a kick to solve that, they should just add damage check on bosses: damage < minimum damage = no loot.

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7 hours ago, Huan said:

Reason: There are too many people who are AFK in dungeons in entrance, just bidding as boss is killed. Too bad noone can do anything about it. 

 

Some things to be careful when implementing system:

 

1. If they get more than majority of votes they are kicked out. 

 

2. People in same guild's votes count as 1(No matter how much there are)

 

This should stop people from abusing the vote-kick system if it is implemented. 

 

However we definitely need a vote-kick option. There are so many people(90% of the dungeons that I play) that go afk, and sometimes, just bid at the end for moonwater tears and stuff.

 

Its bannable to afk in a dungeon it seems.  its against TOS because you are exploiting your party to gain something while not doing something yourself.

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8 minutes ago, Fyk0 said:

Damage contribution system could be abused hard because of the fire mechanic when boss fight starts. Even at the moment it's not rare that people on quick runs rushes to the boss and someone who is playing just normally instantly dies at the door, and so couldn't get anything out of it. Some people could rush to boss just to purposely kill a few at the door so there will be less competition for loot, but still que with others to make the run faster.

This is good constructive feedback

the best answer i have for this though would be a system that allows all party members into the boss room even if a few were late and instead of a firewall that instantly kills you (because that is stupid in the first place) it would be a legitimate wall that prevents you from going back

if you die and respawn manually(hit4) you'll be put in a box you cannot leave from until the party gets wiped or the boss dies

 

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10 minutes ago, Profyrion said:

I think things can be done to prevent vote trolling in the first place.  Namely:

1: Add a per-player or per-party cooldown to the vote feature.  You can only initiate a vote to kick once every 3-5 minutes.  So make it count.

2: Disable kick voting during combat and while loot is being distributed.

3: Require a consensus (not a majority) to pass the vote.  The player who is the target of the vote is not counted, but all the remaining 2 or 4 players must agree.

 

I can probably come up with a few more, and hopefully others will chime in.

 

You can't put a banished player back into the party.  You probably also can't give him the loot he was denied a chance at.  But you can TAKE the loot from people who abuse the votekick, and you CAN give them warnings and other account flags up to and including permanent bans.  If it's a specific group of players vote trolling through many successive dungeons that absolutely IS something that can be detected by a GM/customer service and absolutely SHOULD be dealt with appropriately.

 

If it's just a group of guildmates who did it one time to help a guildy, that's probably not an actionable offense.  So yeah, they'll probably get away with it and somebody is going to have a bad day.  I agree, that is a flaw in the system.  But I must stress, once again, that the potential for this problem (because it only exists as a potential) is far outweighed by what's happening in the game right now without a vote kick.

 

1. Doesn't stop what happens on the first vote.

2. >Holds down LMB in order to constantly attack air at the start of dungeon, thus counting my character as "in-combat".

3. Well you came up with the general strategy, but coming from other games that do that, well, it doesn't really change much, even when the consensus has to be like 15/20 players. Here we only have 4 or 6.

 

Now you're punishing friends for playing with each other AND removing drops they spent time getting. At the same time you are punishing vote kickers, you are not actually doing anything to alleviate the affected party. NCSoft is trying to do things in the most fair way possible without compromising to allow any of this kind of negativity (at least that's what I take from their devtracker posts on moderation of players).

 

You keep repeating yourself that vote kick will reduce the amount of problems that are happening now.

 

And you keep ignoring that yes, I know vote kick could reduce the amount of problems. You do seem to acknowledge that it will add more problems. But you are ignoring that there are solutions that reduce the amount of problems without introducing new problems.

Edited by NueHoujuu

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9 minutes ago, NueHoujuu said:

 

And you keep ignoring that yes, I know vote kick will reduce the amount of problems. You do seem to acknowledge that it will add more problems. But you are ignoring that there are solutions that reduce the amount of problems without introducing new problems.

You're wasting your time he isn't the type that sees fault in such glaring issues

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Nah, I know he's probably going to keep saying the same things.

 

I'm just using him as an excuse to debunk all of the faulty ideas in-case NCSoft looks at this thread {B]

Edited by NueHoujuu

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Eckin   

I agree 100% with all the people who suggested votekick before 1st boss. It should be enough to thin out leechers.

 

It should, however, have some kind of protection for people who have slow machines and take a minute to load, but I guess its a noble sacrifice to make if they can't implement it.

 

(But we all know vote-kick isn't in their plans rn)

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8 minutes ago, NueHoujuu said:

The people saying vote kick would be abused are saying that because they have experience of that very thing happening...

The opposite is true.

 

I've been falsely votekicked from my share of groups.  It sucks.  I had to requeue (sometimes in excess of 30 minutes) and do all or part of a dungeon over again.  In at least one game I was locked out of that dungeon for the rest of the day because I'd already killed one boss.  Thankfully, BNS doesn't have those restrictions.

 

The reason I can still support votekick after having experienced those things is because they were the vast minority of cases.  I see how votekick is used in parties, how it influences the group dynamic, and how it's needed to maintain order and stop trolls in Blade & Soul.  No system is perfect.  But a solid, smartly-designed vote kick is the BEST solution to our current cross-server dungeon problems.

 

Note that I'm not calling for vote kick to the exclusion of other solutions.  Some kind of AFK detection might be a smart addition.  I'd also like to see limits placed on the ability to change loot rules in cross-sevrer -- preferably I'd like for loot options to be DISABLED and locked to the defaults for cross-server, but I'd also consider a "vote-to-change" a good compromise.  I'm not entirely unreasonable.  :P

 

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Votekick only before 1st boss.

 

"Fakes contributing until after the first boss is beaten, and THEN goes to afk leech".

 

You gotta understand that people will exploit EVERYTHING they can.

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Takeva   
19 minutes ago, Fyk0 said:

Damage contribution system could be abused hard because of the fire mechanic when boss fight starts. Even at the moment it's not rare that people on quick runs rushes to the boss and someone who is playing just normally instantly dies at the door, and so couldn't get anything out of it. Some people could rush to boss just to purposely kill a few at the door so there will be less competition for loot, but still que with others to make the run faster.

 

I actually really hate that flame wall. But maybe there can be like a miniboss check? If you haven't touched any of the minibosses you can't loot? Or the firewall is only at the entrance of the dungeon. If you aren't pass that firewall you can't loot. So anyone who dies must not press 4 if they want to loot at the end. 

Or they can place portals in the main bosses room like they do in the bigger dungeons. If you aren't in that portal you can't loot.

 

Idk I'm just throwing around ideas. I just really hate the kick vote system. xD

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DeKus   

I think the flame walls are too close to the entrances in many cases. You can stand behind the doorway, and still get shot by that stupid eye within the fire wall (why does it even exist?).

 

I made some suggestions in this topic:

 

 

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18 minutes ago, NueHoujuu said:

 

1. Doesn't stop what happens on the first vote.

2. >Holds down LMB in order to constantly attack air at the start of dungeon, thus counting my character as "in-combat".

3. Well you came up with the general strategy, but coming from other games that do that, well, it doesn't really change much, even when the consensus has to be like 15/20 players. Here we only have 4 or 6.

 

Now you're punishing friends for playing with each other AND removing drops they spent time getting. At the same time you are punishing vote kickers, you are not actually doing anything to alleviate the affected party. NCSoft is trying to do things in the most fair way possible without compromising to allow any of this kind of negativity (at least that's what I take from their devtracker posts on moderation of players).

 

You keep repeating yourself that vote kick will reduce the amount of problems that are happening now.

 

And you keep ignoring that yes, I know vote kick could reduce the amount of problems. You do seem to acknowledge that it will add more problems. But you are ignoring that there are solutions that reduce the amount of problems without introducing new problems.

NC's approach to player moderation is essentially: "Play nice, children"

 

Sorry, but that's bullsh*t.  They need wake up and get tough.  Western audiences don't respond to spineless pleas for civility.  They respond to "tough love", and this game needs a prescription-strength dose of it.  Vote kick would be an appropriate first step.  If they expect us to moderate ourselves and "behave", that's your solution right there.

 

You wrote:

Quote

2. >Holds down LMB in order to constantly attack air at the start of dungeon, thus counting my character as "in-combat".

But I don't think you're following this through to its logical conclusion.

 

Just because you're at the door spamming your LMB attack doesn't mean the rest of the party is in a combat state.  They can see you standing there attacking the floor like an idiot.  They're not in combat, and since you don't get to vote on your own kick, they're still free to start the vote.  Hey look, problem solved.

 

A consensus of 3 or 5 players is the best you're going to get.  The number doesn't matter.  Even if it's 99/99, a consensus is a consensus.  If you're being a douche the party gets to decide your fate, just like the party dictates your success or failure in the rest of the dungeon.  Give the party that control.  Don't rely on some ham-fisted, easily-defeated gimmick.

 

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14 minutes ago, Profyrion said:

The opposite is true.

 

I've been falsely votekicked from my share of groups.  It sucks.  I had to requeue (sometimes in excess of 30 minutes) and do all or part of a dungeon over again.  In at least one game I was locked out of that dungeon for the rest of the day because I'd already killed one boss.  Thankfully, BNS doesn't have those restrictions.

 

The reason I can still support votekick after having experienced those things is because they were the vast minority of cases.  I see how votekick is used in parties, how it influences the group dynamic, and how it's needed to maintain order and stop trolls in Blade & Soul.  No system is perfect.  But a solid, smartly-designed vote kick is the BEST solution to our current cross-server dungeon problems.

 

Note that I'm not calling for vote kick to the exclusion of other solutions.  Some kind of AFK detection might be a smart addition.  I'd also like to see limits placed on the ability to change loot rules in cross-sevrer -- preferably I'd like for loot options to be DISABLED and locked to the defaults for cross-server, but I'd also consider a "vote-to-change" a good compromise.  I'm not entirely unreasonable.  :P

 

 

My response was to someone claiming " anyone that says it would be abused too much obviously hasn't had much experience in games that utilize this. "

 

Which is wrong because people with experience in it can be either for against, not everyone will automatically think they same way.

 

I would still contend that the "BEST" system is the one that actually patches/detects/fixes all of the individual problems that are being exploited.

 

Vote kick is very controversial, we're even leaning into moral controversies that I could've hit on (but that'd be a little overboard to go on about).

 

Damage threshold required on the boss to bid on boss loot? Directly solves leeches and instead of moral problems we'll at most have balancing problems.

"Mark as AFK" with option to     vote kick    marked players? Directly solves AFK without introducing the problem of friends being kicked automatically, and without introducing the problem of troll vote kicking for bad reasons.

Replacing fire walls+turrets with instances of these doors: http://imgur.com/HNO5fTH <- Everyone would love this over what we have now. Of course the door would have to be different between each player.

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I think it's fair to say that if 3 buddies/guildmates decide to boot you from BSH 4 at Hae (for example), you probably didn't want to play with those guys anyway.  Without votekick they would have found some other way to screw you.  In the end, you're better off.  Report it and move on with your life.

Edited by Profyrion

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The only other way they could screw me right now is to master loot steal (entirely different problem) or to screw everyone and themselves by making the boss wipe us.

 

If you're complacent with just letting people walk over you and moving on... well, good for you.

 

Technically I don't mind if it happens to me, but from the perspective of a person who manages multiplayer games, I don't want the playerbase to have to deal with garbage situations that could entirely be prevented.

Edited by NueHoujuu

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Well I did say "report it" so I'm not sure how you could consider me complacent.  That's a stretch.

 

Edit: You're looking for some magic code that makes people nice to each other, always assume the best, never exploit a bug, and never try to "get one over" on another player.  I think you're going to be looking for a very long time.

 

I'm simply looking for the solution that mitigates the greatest risk.  Vote kick is that solution.  There might be additional steps that could be taken to make it an incrementally stronger solution, but vote kick is still the core.  The arguments against it are incredibly weak.

Edited by Profyrion

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Well, something has to be done about people who sit back and bid on items without moving an centimeter. Currently there is no method of removing them other than to have everyone leave the party. 

 

Many games have vote kick / leader kick options, and for the majority of cases, a player in the wrong is removed. Actually, in all of my MMOs I've never witnessed a bad kick scenario. Either the kicked person was cursing at someone or acting in ways that negatively affected the party.

 

If we get a vote-kick method that requires 5 people to remove a person, I couldn't agree more. For everyone but the person kicked to agree that the person was to be kicked implies conflict or harmful behaviour. 

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Most of the games I see that add vote kick, do it because the company doesn't want to spend the extra time to moderate its players, and doesn't want to code a more elaborate solution.

 

It's a lazy cop-out.

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I'm going to play devils advocate here, and tell you about my vote to kick experience. 

 

About a year ago now, an mmo was launched on the Xbox one by the name of neverwinter. The game was your basic class mmo. Healers etc etc.

 

This game implemented vote to kick from day one. Early game, this was no issue. However, that was before late game attacked.

 

See in lategame, very specific items dropped. You needed x of the item to trade in for an artifact weapon (similar to our hongmoon weapons, you feed them, they evolve).  I was excited to start farming for my bow, and was regarded as one of the better rangers in game. 

 

I go to run the first dungeon. I get to the end and x item dropped. Suddenly I was dced from the dungeon. The same thing happened over and over. What was happening you ask? 3 out of 5 people, not in the same guilds but friends, would vote to kick the other two out. Then said players got all of x item. 

 

The game became unplayable unless me, a solo player would que with 3 people I knew to gain control of the vtk system.

 

Tldr: vote to kick is abuseable and ruins games. Don't implement it. Instead, implement an afk rule. If said person does not deal x percent of damage, no loot for them.

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Tof   
On 2/18/2016 at 8:08 PM, zubatusedfly said:

I'm going to play devils advocate here, and tell you about my vote to kick experience. 

 

About a year ago now, an mmo was launched on the Xbox one by the name of neverwinter. The game was your basic class mmo. Healers etc etc.

 

This game implemented vote to kick from day one. Early game, this was no issue. However, that was before late game attacked.

 

See in lategame, very specific items dropped. You needed x of the item to trade in for an artifact weapon (similar to our hongmoon weapons, you feed them, they evolve).  I was excited to start farming for my bow, and was regarded as one of the better rangers in game. 

 

I go to run the first dungeon. I get to the end and x item dropped. Suddenly I was dced from the dungeon. The same thing happened over and over. What was happening you ask? 3 out of 5 people, not in the same guilds but friends, would vote to kick the other two out. Then said players got all of x item. 

 

The game became unplayable unless me, a solo player would que with 3 people I knew to gain control of the vtk system.

 

Tldr: vote to kick is abuseable and ruins games. Don't implement it. Instead, implement an afk rule. If said person does not deal x percent of damage, no loot for them.

 

Then let's not have vote kick work during combat or when the loot window is up. A lot of MMOs do it like that and it works fine.

 

But seriously, the botting in this game is out of control, at the very least, we need them out of instances handicapping active players.

 

I get that vote kicks are abused sometimes, but the majority of the time, it's not, and is kinda necessary.

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