Petition for Vote-Kick option in Cross Server Dungeons

[Xephier102]

I don't love this idea because it gives leetist players the ability to kick someone just because they're not as skilled, well geared or high level as them. I've been in a group as a low lvl and had low lvls in a group(lvl 14 in BRN) and generally that doesn't bring a group down but there's leetist players that would QQ about it and boot the person. I've seen it in other games plenty.

[Profyrion]

3 minutes ago, LordEvil said:

No will be abused, some of u are really dumb or new to this crap kicking vote system in games. I will tell you few exemples of 1000's ways how would be abused and like others already said players will abuse vote kicking to kick others at will with or without reason.

Tthe game Skyforge for exemple have that option to vote kick players from PT's (PVE/PVP), they just try to kick players out just like that without any reason 99% of the time, just 1 player suddendly starts the vote to kick out "Player A, B" etc.

Then u will start to see forum getting flooded with posts from players "crying/complaining" getting kicked from PT's just like that.

Dont like AFKER's etc etc leave the damn PT and find another 1, usually takes just less than 1 min to find new PT, do with friends or join clan, problem solved.

Vote kicking does not solve anything only brings more problems.

There's that lame reason again.

 

So I should leave the dungeon because some other player is loot leeching?  That's your solution?

 

Hilarious.  You guys have absolutely zero legitimate case against vote kick.

[Profyrion]

Just now, Xephier102 said:

I don't love this idea because it gives leetist players the ability to kick someone just because they're not as skilled, well geared or high level as them. I've been in a group as a low lvl and had low lvls in a group(lvl 14 in BRN) and generally that doesn't bring a group down but there's leetist players that would QQ about it and boot the person. I've seen it in other games plenty.

Party leader kick is NOT vote kick.  They are 2 completely different concepts.

 

If some "leetist" doesn't want you in the party for X reason, he has to convince the rest of the group to kick you under a votekick system.  Just because he starts a vote doesn't mean it will pass.  Jesus, use your brains people.  This isn't hard.

[Vexe]

28 minutes ago, LordEvil said:

No will be abused, some of u are really dumb or new to this crap kicking vote system in games. I will tell you few exemples of 1000's ways how would be abused and like others already said players will abuse vote kicking to kick others at will with or without reason.

Tthe game Skyforge for exemple have that option to vote kick players from PT's (PVE/PVP), they just try to kick players out just like that without any reason 99% of the time, just 1 player suddendly starts the vote to kick out "Player A, B" etc.

Then u will start to see forum getting flooded with posts from players "crying/complaining" getting kicked from PT's just like that.

Dont like AFKER's etc etc leave the damn PT and find another 1, usually takes just less than 1 min to find new PT, do with friends or join clan, problem solved.

Vote kicking does not solve anything only brings more problems.

 

As someone who played WoW and TERA...wrong.

 

First of all, people hate waiting. You afk or go offline, chances are pretty high you'll be kicked within a minute or two after people notice it. And yes, if you say "brb", they don't kick you unless you're an idiot and go at the worst possible time. In longer dungeons people don't mind waiting a few mins for everyone to go to the toilet before a boss or while clearing weak trash mobs. The most important thing is that you don't stay silent.

 

However. Let's look at B&S' Bloodshade Harbor 6man. People reached the Twins and noticed that someone isn't responding and standing still a short distance away. What do you think they'll do? Well, they'd wait a few minutes. Why they would wait? Because waiting for a new player to join the group and catch up with everyone takes longer and because they know that you're an ass for randomly kicking people.

 

 

The kickvote just needs to check for what the majority thinks. If most players want you gone, you're probably an ass or just got unlucky with the group anyways. People like that are not common.

Of course there are necessary restrictions: no kicks in boss fights and bidding, vote cooldown of a few minutes after success & failure, and punishment for votekick abuse to masterloot (friends/guild mates).

 

 

Blade & Soul NEEDS a proper majority kickvote system. Currently, you can't even kick an offline player from a Bloodshade 6man properly and people should not be able to afk-leech. In TERA, I remember getting kickvote-trolled when I just joined (someone made a stupid but aggressive joke and I got kicked the second I answered), but that only happened once. He probably wasn't satisfied with my equipment.

[NueHoujuu]

44 minutes ago, Profyrion said:

If you and your 2 friends all decide to be pricks and exploit the votekick to troll people, you're going to find yourselves on the wrong end of the ban stick eventually.  That kind of collusion is very easy to detect and you're going to stick out like a sore thumb to a GM.  So... enjoy that.

 

You'd be surprised how rare this is.  Right now, one guy can be a douche all day with very little consequence and ruin the fun of dozens, perhaps hundreds of people in a single play session.  With votekick, a group of 3 or 5 can ruin the fun of 1 person at a time for as long as they can keep it up.  But that requires some careful planning and the willing participation of all parties.  You're not going to find that sort of group behavior very often and the impact it has on players is minimal compared to the alternative.

 

 

But then NCSoft is punishing players for playing with their friends. NCSoft already said that they don't want resort to solutions that will only create more problems.

 

Also, what you call "doesn't happen very often" is true for an individual player, an individual player might only come across vote trolls once in a while, but that individual player will be very frustrated by even one unfair kick.

 

Multiply these "individual players" by the number of players in the entire game (and then pick maybe 1 in 6 players or 1 in 12 players, whatever you wish). Suddenly NCSoft and its GMs have thousands of "individual players" getting frustrated by this system.

 

It's unlikely that any of the game's GMs will be able to deal with them, and even if support/GM responds instantly, it's not like they can put the player back into the previous party just so easily. They won't be able to help affected parties at all.

 

----

 

Why choose options that have negative impacts at all, when there are options that solve the problem and have no side effects?

 

Replacing negativity with negativity isn't good when you can remove negativity.

 

----

 

I'm thinking at the perspective of people managing the game and the perspective of all players.

 

I run servers myself and for a time we had vote kick and immediately we had many players complain about vote trolls. Our admins can't address every individual case. It affects our management and it affects all of the players that got vote trolled, and we don't want them to leave our servers over it. The majority there are already quite happy with my automated AFK kicking system with no manual vote kicking.

 

All dungeons need are a dungeon AFK timer that removes you from the dungeon if you're doing nothing.

[Profyrion]

1 minute ago, NueHoujuu said:

 

But then NCSoft is punishing players for playing with their friends. NCSoft already said that they don't want resort to solutions that will only create more problems.

 

Also, what you call "doesn't happen very often" is true for an individual player, an individual player might only come across vote trolls once in a while, but that individual player will be very frustrated by even one unfair kick.

 

Multiply these "individual players" by the number of players in the entire game (and then pick maybe 1 in 6 players or 1 in 12 players, whatever you wish). Suddenly NCSoft and its GMs have thousands of "individual players" getting frustrated by this system.

 

It's unlikely that any of the game's GMs will be able to deal with them, and even if support/GM responds instantly, it's not like they can put the player back into the previous party just so easily. They won't be able to help affected parties at all.

You're really exaggerating the "vote trolls" problem.  Yes, occasionally a small group of guildies will conspire to kick somebody so their guildmate doesn't have to compete for loot.  And in those cases they'll usually get away with it.  The guy who got kicked is going to have a bad day.  That sucks!  But let's not pretend that it's common OR that nothing can be done about it.  Smart, reasonable safeguards can be added to the vote kick system.

 

This problem pales in comparison to what's happening right now in the dungeon queues.

 

[NueHoujuu]

Well, if you were bothering to actually propose reasonable safeguards, maybe I could agree, but until then...!

 

And if you think something can be done about vote trolling after it has already happened, I'd love to hear you actually come up with a reasonable suggestion for how it could work.

 

The closest compromise I've thought of is only being able to vote kick someone who has been automatically marked as AFK by the game.

 

Then friends can prevent the automated system from autokicking and not-friends can get rid of the extra.

 

Coupled with having to be in the boss room / instance to bid.

 

----

 

I'm not exaggerating when I talk about the number of people who will vote troll. I don't think you've ever run gaming servers, but if you record statistics of how often vote kicks occur out of an entire playerbase, you get an actual idea of the big picture.

 

While it may not appear like it happens commonly in YOUR time spent playing the game and randomly coming across it, the company sees all occurences. It's easy to use confirmation bias to say it's uncommon, but among hundreds of thousands of players that you aren't monitoring it adds up.

[Vexe]

Nue: You do realize that they're already getting complaints from people frustrated by Blade & Soul's worthless kicking system, right? I'd say the number of complaints will be REDUCED instead, if they implement proper kickvoting.

 

When people start complaining about majority-kickvoting, NCsoft can just go ahead and do exactly what they're doing right now to everyone complaining about the masterlooting. Nothing. Pretend that everything would be working as intended.

 

 

As for the afk timer, that thing would change literally nothing. You think it's hard to set up your character so that he does something every X minutes and resets the afk timer?

[YukiAyumu]

9 minutes ago, Vexe said:

 

 

 

 

As for the afk timer, that thing would change literally NOTHING. You think it's hard to set up your character so that he does something every X minutes and resets the afk timer?

did you read the whole post

 

if the person is going out of their way to stay with the party but do nothing they are trying way too hard

 

and if they have a program for THAT they are officially botting and may be reported

[Vexe]

You don't need a program. You can either just press a key (I have 2 PCs and monitors beside each other at home, and a TV with consoles at the side), or physically set something up on the keyboard/mouse that would move it randomly/periodically.

 

TERA Online already has a kickvoting system. It's actually hard to abuse it coz people tend to vote "no", ignoring the chat. Plus, the kickvote cooldowns during combat make it impossible to kick anyone in a fast-paced party and people have to stop moving for a short time for it to succeed.

 

 

Kickvote systems do not get abused  that much in MMOs.

[NueHoujuu]

That goes from detecting AFK to detecting Leeching. But then you can say a low level player or undergeared player is a leech.

 

I would thoroughly say that there's really nothing you can do if I join your party and only use LMB attacks on everything without actually trying.

 

However, AFK detection would still help with a lot of cases. Some people leech, but anyone can innocently go AFK for any reason.

 

Also I didn't notice the game already had some form of votekick, where does the option appear? (I have looked around the party interface but right now I'm in Mushin's Tower).

 

I've only seen people complain about the fact(?) that there is no votekick... ???

[Vexe]

AFKing and leeching are the same kind of problem.

 

As for undergeared players....in TERA people were more much likely to ask such players to leave or the unsatisfied players left themselves. If you don't listen and the dungeon really does require good equip (some did), they'll /vote you out, yeah. I think it was most common for them to just leave the group if they're not satisfied. You're right that I can't do anything if you just follow and LMB. But it's a good start, people who contribute nothing will be getting kicked.

 

 

In B&S you can rightclick a player (I think click on the "...") and vote to kick. AFAIK every single player needs to vote to remove the offline player, and it doesn't display the votes. It's worthless, couldn't kick anyone despite all 5 seemingly agreeing on it in chat. :/

[Profyrion]

5 minutes ago, NueHoujuu said:

That goes from detecting AFK to detecting Leeching. But then you can say a low level player or undergeared player is a leech.

 

I would thoroughly say that there's really nothing you can do if I join your party and only use LMB attacks on everything without actually trying.

At least you'd be contributing something.  Which is more than anyone can say about the current crop of "AFK" loot leeches.

 

[YukiAyumu]

7 minutes ago, Profyrion said:

At least you'd be contributing something.  Which is more than anyone can say about the current crop of "AFK" loot leeches.

 

pretty much how i feel

 

and if enrage wasn't a thing i wouldn't care about under geared people eaither

[Profyrion]

28 minutes ago, NueHoujuu said:

 

All dungeons need are a dungeon AFK timer that removes you from the dungeon if you're doing nothing.

No offense, but it would be laughably easy to avoid such a system.  These players aren't really AFK, they're just waiting.  We know they're not AFK because they bid on loot -- hence, loot leeches.

 

But if you've got a proposal, let's hear it.

[NueHoujuu]

Indeed, which is why we need AFK detection.

 

 

As far as "contribution detection" goes, a good threshold would have to be found if they were to implement something like 'deal 5% of the boss's health to bid' or hit the boss or be in the room.

 

Personally i'd go with the x% dmg, as classes seem to be able to all do their own damage in some way and if you're really just not even hitting like 20k on a boss with 1m hp you don't really deserve the drop. Even a maxed player can't just one hit kill the boss in blackram narrows, granted he can still kill it fast.

[YukiAyumu]

 

 

6 minutes ago, NueHoujuu said:

Indeed, which is why we need AFK detection.

 

 

As far as "contribution detection" goes, a good threshold would have to be found if they were to implement something like 'deal 5% of the boss's health to bid' or hit the boss or be in the room.

 

Personally i'd go with the x% dmg, as classes seem to be able to all do their own damage in some way and if you're really just not even hitting like 20k on a boss with 1m hp you don't really deserve the drop. Even a maxed player can't just one hit kill the boss in blackram narrows, granted he can still kill it fast.

i'd agree with a % thing

[Profyrion]

3 minutes ago, NueHoujuu said:

Indeed, which is why we need AFK detection.

 

 

As far as "contribution detection" goes, a good threshold would have to be found if they were to implement something like 'deal 5% of the boss's health to bid' or hit the boss or be in the room.

 

Personally i'd go with the x% dmg, as classes seem to be able to all do their own damage in some way and if you're really just not even hitting like 20k on a boss with 1m hp you don't really deserve the drop. Even a maxed player can't just one hit kill the boss in blackram narrows, granted he can still kill it fast.

How do you handle players who "stood in the fire" and died on the first boss AOE but otherwise made a reasonable effort?

 

They would definitely fall below your threshold.  Do they get denied loot too?

 

[Kawasaki]

yeah i want to be able to kick  people who don't have 350ap and try to do bsh expecting to get carried

[NueHoujuu]

8 minutes ago, Profyrion said:

No offense, but it would be laughably easy to avoid such a system.  These players aren't really AFK, they're just waiting.  We know they're not AFK because they bid on loot -- hence, loot leeches.

 

But if you've got a proposal, let's hear it.

 

Nice to see you turn my challenge onto me instead of defending your own standpoint.

 

The point of AFK detection solves people who are actually AFK. As I already said, it is not Leech detection. If a leech is intentionally fake AFKing, the best you can do is make it harder for them to leech, force them to participate more. At some point you are really just trying way too hard to leech that you may as well just spam skills at the very least.

 

Oh wait, I already did give a proposal to solve that!

 

Actually, "some" bosses seem to already lock you out of drops if you don't deal enough damage. Why don't they just make that apply to bids as well. I mean, bid works for a drop from a random non-boss NPC, but it should be expected for all players to be in the boss room and hitting it. Since the game already excludes people from physical drops on the ground for not doing enough damage, why don't they apply that to boss drop bids?

 

Of course, there are complaints about how the damage drop threshold works as we know from Blackwyrm... that has to be fixed too.

 

Also those fire walls really need to be fixed if they are going to apply damage drop thresholds to all dungeon bosses.

 

Currently you can Leech by standing still and doing nothing. It's too easy and we all agree.

 

Still waiting on you to improve your idea of preventing it though.

[Profyrion]

2 minutes ago, NueHoujuu said:

 

Nice to see you turn my challenge onto me instead of defending your own standpoint.

 

The point of AFK detection solves people who are actually AFK. As I already said, it is not Leech detection. If a leech is intentionally fake AFKing, the best you can do is make it harder for them to leech, force them to participate more. At some point you are really just trying way too hard to leech that you may as well just spam skills at the very least.

 

Oh wait, I already did give a proposal to solve that!

 

Currently you can Leech by standing still and doing nothing. It's too easy and we all agree.

 

Still waiting on you to improve your idea of preventing it though.

My idea is to vote kick.  I thought I made that clear.

[NueHoujuu]

32 minutes ago, Profyrion said:

You're really exaggerating the "vote trolls" problem.  Yes, occasionally a small group of guildies will conspire to kick somebody so their guildmate doesn't have to compete for loot.  And in those cases they'll usually get away with it.  The guy who got kicked is going to have a bad day.  That sucks!  But let's not pretend that it's common OR that nothing can be done about it.  Smart, reasonable safeguards can be added to the vote kick system.

 

This problem pales in comparison to what's happening right now in the dungeon queues.

 

 

29 minutes ago, NueHoujuu said:

Well, if you were bothering to actually propose reasonable safeguards, maybe I could agree, but until then...!

 

And if you think something can be done about vote trolling after it has already happened, I'd love to hear you actually come up with a reasonable suggestion for how it could work.

 

The closest compromise I've thought of is only being able to vote kick someone who has been automatically marked as AFK by the game.

 

Then friends can prevent the automated system from autokicking and not-friends can get rid of the extra.

 

Coupled with having to be in the boss room / instance to bid.

 

----

 

I'm not exaggerating when I talk about the number of people who will vote troll. I don't think you've ever run gaming servers, but if you record statistics of how often vote kicks occur out of an entire playerbase, you get an actual idea of the big picture.

 

While it may not appear like it happens commonly in YOUR time spent playing the game and randomly coming across it, the company sees all occurences. It's easy to use confirmation bias to say it's uncommon, but among hundreds of thousands of players that you aren't monitoring it adds up.

 

I think you're forgetting things that were said only a few posts up.

 

Tell me your safe and reasonable safeguards to make vote kick completely fair.

[Takeva]

51 minutes ago, Profyrion said:

There's that lame reason again.

 

So I should leave the dungeon because some other player is loot leeching?  That's your solution?

 

Hilarious.  You guys have absolutely zero legitimate case against vote kick.

 

No legitimate case against it? Someone already mentioned the many abuses of it. Either you never played a game with vote kick or you were one of those jerks who kicked because someone with less than Ultimate gear slowed you down. There are plenty of cases where people got kicked because of stupid childish reasons. I got kicked from a party in FF14 because I gave the tank advice. The other members might have been his friends and they voted to kick me. I got kicked for lagging, I got kicked for going to open the door after I said "brb door", I got kicked for getting disconnected from game. 

So I will tell you what people told me when all this was going on. Run dungeons with friends or guild and your problems will be solved. I only joined random Dungeons on if I had to.

 

Only solution I see is the 5% hp solution. If you don't deal damage, you don't get anything.

[Hitokiri]

After lvl 45 this game is getting to job. Every god d....n day the same. So most players just bored from this and start to leach. 

 

BSH 24 today:

 

20 ppl standing on last boss and trash talking, 4 ppl kill sub bosses. When i asked them, go kill the twins, they told that the already done. Till there will be white knights which work for others this will never end and even more this will be more worse. And will end like in China, when a guy just starts the game and a 6 pack of bots do all the job.

[Vexe]

^or he played a game with kickvoting and realized that it's not a big issue, unlike masterlooting and leeching.

NCsoft still does nothing.