Masqava

What's wrong with destroyer, and why he'll rapidly fall off in PvP.

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Masqava   

I don't know why this thread is still up to be honest.

I don't agree with my own opinion anymore.

Please close this thread.

 

 

Edited by Masqava

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Gamemako   

You're a month late. Destroyer is already dead.

 

Piledriver is 7-8% of an opponent's health.  Destroyer PvP damage outside of animation cancel Cleave is horrifyingly bad.

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Whargoul   
6 minutes ago, Gamemako said:

You're a month late. Destroyer is already dead.

 

Piledriver is 7-8% of an opponent's health.  Destroyer PvP damage outside of animation cancel Cleave is horrifyingly bad.

Whaaat? I thought we were the OP class, the broken class that took no skill and can beat anyone with spins?

execute can be pretty nasty though if you connect all the hits

Edited by Whargoul

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Masqava   
3 minutes ago, Whargoul said:

Whaaat? I thought we were the OP class, the broken class that took no skill and can beat anyone with spins?

execute can be pretty nasty though if you connect all the hits

 

You expect a skill that basically leaves you vulnerable for 2 seconds and someone to knock you down for free because you have to stand literally next to them or if they ss they get out of to be nasty? (Let's also not forget that you need a shitton of focus which you just don't get for free as destroyer) and you need the bad spin that doesn't stun for it to be useable.

 

Execute is far from nasty, it's so easy to avoid that I'm pretty sure above bronze it's unuseable outside of a chaotic tag match.

Edited by Masqava

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lolwut


I think you got it backwards. Destroyer is one of the strongest classes in the game in every respect. You're not even supposed to be using Fury against competent players. 

 

Watch Jaesung destroy people with his destroyer sometime, maybe that'll give you some insight (and it's not even his main, either): 

 

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Whargoul   
4 minutes ago, Masqava said:

 

You expect a skill that basically leaves you vulnerable for 2 seconds and someone to knock you down for free because you have to stand literally next to them or if they ss they get out of to be nasty? (Let's also not forget that you need a shitton of focus which you just don't get for free as destroyer) and you need the bad spin that doesn't stun for it to be useable.

 

Execute is far from nasty, it's so easy to avoid that I'm pretty sure above bronze it's unuseable outside of a chaotic tag match.

Never said it was viable, just nasty if you manage to connect 

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Masqava   
2 minutes ago, Whargoul said:

Never said it was viable, just nasty if you manage to connect 

 

Yeah but talking about higher ranks, it's basically just a free ''look at me, I'm a fool, you can attack me cause I just used all my focus''

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Whargoul   
4 minutes ago, Masqava said:

 

Yeah but talking about higher ranks, it's basically just a free ''look at me, I'm a fool, you can attack me cause I just used all my focus''

Sounds like the best move, it's something they wouldn't expect! the perfect opening with the element of shock

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15 hours ago, Masqava said:

 

Yeah but talking about higher ranks, it's basically just a free ''look at me, I'm a fool, you can attack me cause I just used all my focus''

maybe if you stop randomly spinning like most destroyers seem to you would not use all your focus, all the do is spin all over the place and then they can't do shit .... wonder why ...

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Daiakane   

BD and Assasssin are so broken unreal all the assassin i fight just stay stealth through out the fight sucks we can't even target them when we see them unless is a aoe effect and that's bullshit or they run the time out by ccing you to death.

 

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Cogbyrn   

I'm tickled pink at the fact that basically nothing changed in the game, but now Destroyers aren't the "spin2win" imba they used to be only a few weeks ago.  If only people would realize this scenario as a lesson when complaining about a game.

 

I'm not saying Destroyers are weak or strong, but it almost seems like people figured out how to beat their "meta" build, and now collectively Destroyers need to move away from what they have been doing and find something else that works.  People are just more likely to abandon a bandwagon class than actually try to make it work.

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Gamemako   
3 hours ago, Cogbyrn said:

I'm tickled pink at the fact that basically nothing changed in the game, but now Destroyers aren't the "spin2win" imba they used to be only a few weeks ago.  If only people would realize this scenario as a lesson when complaining about a game.

 

I'm not saying Destroyers are weak or strong, but it almost seems like people figured out how to beat their "meta" build, and now collectively Destroyers need to move away from what they have been doing and find something else that works.  People are just more likely to abandon a bandwagon class than actually try to make it work.

 

People have a habit of complaining about how they lost without considering the mechanics interplay first. People weren't complaining about a meta build, they were complaining about Typhoon -- which is incredibly easy to escape and has a horrid cooldown. Its only real value is breaking cheese strategies (e.g. summoner snare kite, KFM counter/immunity spam) by pressing the action.

 

What people have gradually come to realize is that those mechanics have counterplay, where every class have combinations without any counterplay which remove about 75% of a health bar in one go. This is by design, for better or worse-- as far as Western tastes go, it's mostly worse, since the struggle is more important to Western audiences. This makes it harder for any given class to be too overpowered, but also reduces the game to little more than cheese and pingrace much of the time.

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Skilfing   

If you are worried about the future of the destroyer I would recommend actually checking how well they preform in other regions. If you looked up information you would quickly see that your view on it is more or less entirely wrong. This is korean / world tournament level of play.

 

Doing steady dmg without fury is harder than the average destroyer style, but it is by no means not possible. You mention assassins, I can tell you that if you use fury in that match up you are doing something wrong unless you are sure about your skills against assassins.

 

Go to "playNC" on youtube and watch their tournament videos. You can't really judge without knowledge.

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Valiant   
On 2/17/2016 at 11:59 PM, Zyrusticae said:

lolwut


I think you got it backwards. Destroyer is one of the strongest classes in the game in every respect. You're not even supposed to be using Fury against competent players. 

 

Watch Jaesung destroy people with his destroyer sometime, maybe that'll give you some insight (and it's not even his main, either): 

 

That is the point, It need a "Pro" To make destroyer reach 1900 plate + while Summoner/BD can burst you with tons of damage and any noob can master them.

 

My point is BD/Summoner/Destroyer supposed to be the same level of difficulty but that not true BD/summoner can be played with any player while destroyer need pro, Even expert pro cause KFM isn't that hard now.

 

You know that KFM got 3 IFrames with short CD + Blocks + 2 Escapes + Something similar to Fury ? Tell me that sound fair ? Btw Block and IFrame cost no focus as spin or Iframe that destroyer cast, That mean they able to brush 100-30% HP in 6 second with that semi-furry skill.

 

And you know that shield that destroyer use for heal is way useless and it not that helping skill like FM Ice block that heal them?FM Got 2 escapes aswell, Ice shield that heal way faster and higher than Destroyer useless shield, Another ice block counter that active when they attack them.

 

What about Assissan ? He always count on stun you, some light damange then hide again before time out or else Just ruin your escape then spam web stun you with light and potions to death enough atleast to make damage around 100-60%.

 

Even if you look at BM at his current status that it's weak or whatever, He able to counter and block destroyer skills able to knock him up and down due to many skills that pass through Spin since it not ignore Knock up and down.

 

And I want to remind you of something if you check the last view videos for Jaesung you will notice that Assissan and BD able to beat him like 50% while he supposed to be a pro with a game seem like still plate people able to kill him using BD and Assissan pretty easy.

 

30 minutes ago, Skilfing said:

If you are worried about the future of the destroyer I would recommend actually checking how well they preform in other regions. If you looked up information you would quickly see that your view on it is more or less entirely wrong. This is korean / world tournament level of play.

 

Doing steady dmg without fury is harder than the average destroyer style, but it is by no means not possible. You mention assassins, I can tell you that if you use fury in that match up you are doing something wrong unless you are sure about your skills against assassins.

 

Go to "playNC" on youtube and watch their tournament videos. You can't really judge without knowledge.

 

I saw some of this PlayNc tournament and I saw destroyer getting eaten against Force Master, Assassin pretty easy even they was using the opposite of Fury which mean they got 1 more escape that.

 

But I got to tell you something, Destroyer is balanced in other regions due to the fact that they got more skills point + All helpful skills for destroyer are locked into legendary skills .

 

And here come the point that bother me about destroyer thing why BM and Destroyer need alot of skills point and legendary skills to be able to stand against other classes ?

Sound unfair for BD to have his best skills like hurt without skill tree while destroyer hurl need skill tree, Just it not normal . 

 

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Valiant   

 

 

What I expect  : Brutal damage class , Able to pick whatever enemy from his place and just end their life, Able to pin down any object that hold him down, And if you about to die you can just up your shield to heal safely without been touched before you smash your enemy face with the fury.

 

What I saw and the sadly truth : KFM/BD/Summoner/FM  damage > Destroyer damage without fury, Need to stun or Daze or knockdown his enemy so he can pick it up which is hard since every class got escape for grab, If you about to die.. nevermind don't use shield for heal because it useless and will get broken just use it for another stun that need 45 second cooldown, And fury....nevermind  play in safe mood and use the opposite of fury just because you the only class forced to use his best skill to escape and fun part it 1 min cooldown.

 

I won't say I'm pro destroyer but I'm sure there something broken with this game balance, Every class got like tons of effect that lock down their enemy

For example Blade dancer :

Got Body kick(9 second), Soaring Falcon(18 second CD), Anklebite(30 second CD), Raid(30 second CD), Dual Strike(36 second CD) and Five point Strike(45 second) that about 6 skills that able to put effects.

While destroyer got Blitz(18 CD), Ram(30 CD), Axe sweep (30 CD) and Body kick(9second or 18 second  CD)/Drag(30 second CD) + Either you use shield as stun(45 second CD ) or not that about 5 skills if you used shield.

 

As for effects I think BD got more chance to lock destroyer first before destroyer able to lock him and that for the fact that destroyer Body Kick and Drag in same tree -.-

Beside that you just used your healing shield that suppose to protect you for stun effect while BD don't use his immune into another tree to protect him.

 

I won't compare the damage between both of them since Light damage > Destroyer damage any day.

 

And for grab I think destroyer need to stun or daze or knock you down to get to grab you to do "Little damage or effect" with 18 second CD while Blade dancer phantom Grab can be cast on enemy without need to stun or lock them out with effect while it able to "Tons of high" damage with Cd of 24 second.

 

And for protection part let's talk about reality here Blade dancer spin > Destroyer spin due to fact that Blade dancer spin remove snare and give him speed and regain focus or he could use it for 2 second immune with CD of 36 second.

Blade dance got like 5 second immune that heal 10% HP with 36 second CD, Q and E switch with 18 second cooldown, 1 min cooldown escape from Grabs, 36sec normal escape for every class and 8 second CD for SS and it does increase his speed.

 

While the poor destroyer got his SS with CD of 12 second  and need to put skill point in it to get speed, His IFrame skill which is 24 second CD And " IF " you used Persistence

which is 5 second immune and can escapes stun/Daze with cooldown of 1 min + Shield that heal up 20% CD can be either 45 or 24 or 30 second it can block "Frontal attacks " only and can be breaking with Pierce defense or Breaking counter/block skills  or Attack from behind.

 

So you can apply this compare to any other class and you will find same result, Destroyer leak in locking effects, Leaking in either protecting or Damage depend on your build. 

 

Additional information :

 

 

 

 

Most of this skills that cast and consider as Charges in this video are "ignore defensive/parry skills " some of them even have 18 second cooldown so yes Q,E, SS and any IFrame skills are consider more effective against Charges while spin is useless.

 

That why at higher level when you face a pro , If you spin = Dead , If you IFrame = Win.

 

Sadly Destroyer is the class where Iframe is around 12 and 24 second cooldown while BD got spin + Q,E and SS + immune , I know some will say summoner don't have much of Iframe either but summoner when he get locked down after messing two escapes cat knock  you up and down easily if you try to attack them.

 

So Either game fix destroyer skills and remove unwanted tree in every tree or atleast move the good skills effect from legendary to normal skills like they do with other classes,

 

 

Edited by Valiant

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Skilfing   
1 hour ago, Valiant said:

But I got to tell you something, Destroyer is balanced in other regions due to the fact that they got more skills point + All helpful skills for destroyer are locked into legendary skills .

 

And here come the point that bother me about destroyer thing why BM and Destroyer need alot of skills point and legendary skills to be able to stand against other classes ?

Sound unfair for BD to have his best skills like hurt without skill tree while destroyer hurl need skill tree, Just it not normal . 

This is the same for a lot of classes. Take assassin, which I mainly play, also need points and HM and we are no less reliant on that than you are, maybe even more so. Some classes are more fortunate than others in this meta. Our patch and skill build is meant for 50 + 15, not 45 + 5. Balance here is different from other regions. The future of destroyer is fine. All classes are good right now in the right hands, but some take a lot more effort and understanding than others which will get better with time.

My main point is, the content we get is already on another version so worrying about it really doesn't help. It will come. 

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Valiant   
Just now, Skilfing said:

This is the same for a lot of classes. Take assassin, which I mainly play, also need points and HM and we are no less reliant on that than you are, maybe even more so. Some classes are more fortunate than others in this meta. Our patch and skill build is meant for 50 + 15, not 45 + 5. Balance here is different from other regions. The future of destroyer is fine. All classes are good right now in the right hands, but some take a lot more effort and understanding than others which will get better with time.

My main point is, the content we get is already on another version so worrying about it really doesn't help. It will come. 

I do wish that really since all I can see now, Summoner jump around and do tons of damage while if you tried to grab or stun him he will escape or cat will knock you down, Assassin (Since you Assassin you would be pretty sure know that is the truth ) mostly try to light damage destroyer then back to hide to play on time out forcing you to try to hit him hard as possible which need Fury if you ask me.

KFM and BD got their full skill build right now, I do think their legendary won't make much difference as it would do for Destroyer and BM for example .

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11 hours ago, Daiakane said:

Assasssin are so broken unreal all the assassin i fight just stay stealth through out the fight

LOL.... you must be pretty shit if you're getting perma-stealthed by sins in PvP... I mean, sins are already lacking the HM skills we need and the 50 patch to actually be good. If you're losing now, you're *cricket*ed at 50.

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Valiant   
2 hours ago, DankDuck1 said:

LOL.... you must be pretty shit if you're getting perma-stealthed by sins in PvP... I mean, sins are already lacking the HM skills we need and the 50 patch to actually be good. If you're losing now, you're *cricket*ed at 50.

Well they do by time out, Destroyer don't have much of aoe to catch them xD

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Valiant   

And may I ask something ? Which build should I use against  Blade dancer ?

Offensive or Defensive ? 

Cause when I go Offensive I got to make alot of damage on them if I catch them but still they able to counter and escape before giving a hell tons of damage of their light and grab :/

Or should I go Defensive ? Also they able to knock me up and able to 100-80% of first attack on me while when I catch them I do little damage and not able to keep up with their effects CD due to the 1min cooldown for  Persistence making me get out of escapes so fast that I get light damage on me -.-

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Cogbyrn   
19 hours ago, Gamemako said:

 

People have a habit of complaining about how they lost without considering the mechanics interplay first. People weren't complaining about a meta build, they were complaining about Typhoon -- which is incredibly easy to escape and has a horrid cooldown. Its only real value is breaking cheese strategies (e.g. summoner snare kite, KFM counter/immunity spam) by pressing the action.

 

What people have gradually come to realize is that those mechanics have counterplay, where every class have combinations without any counterplay which remove about 75% of a health bar in one go. This is by design, for better or worse-- as far as Western tastes go, it's mostly worse, since the struggle is more important to Western audiences. This makes it harder for any given class to be too overpowered, but also reduces the game to little more than cheese and pingrace much of the time.

 

I have yet to see 75% of my health bar disappear in one combo, which suggests to me that in order to do something like that, you need to pull off a long sequence of moves that probably involves something like tech chasing or other skillful play to keep the chain going despite the other player's actions (as I don't think I'm at a very skillful rating right now).  I'm not saying it can't be done, but if I haven't seen it, I'm guessing you have to reach a certain level of play in order to do it.

 

And isn't that sort of what people wanted?  A game that required skill to pull things off?  I'll grant you, typically while you're in these combos you can't control your character, but it makes me question what people think skilled play involves.  Two people spamming their highest DPS rotation at one another until one falls over?  Throwing one CC out, which can be countered by a trinket so you never lose control of your character?  In a 1v1 situation, what are people looking for?

 

Now don't get me wrong, I think you're correct.  Taking it one step further, I don't think Western audiences are capable of handling a competitive 1v1 MMO en masse.  I think this was going to be a niche game from the start, with a crowd thinking it was what they wanted and realizing it isn't.  And I think that's OK.  Niche games are wonderful, because everyone has different tastes, and it often means a group's individual tastes are satisfied much better than a lowest common denominator game like WoW could ever achieve.  The only unfortunate thing, imo, is how people are going out of their way to trash the game on their way out because they don't like it.  That's just bad show.

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Bashnir   
On ‎2‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 3:59 PM, Zyrusticae said:

lolwut


I think you got it backwards. Destroyer is one of the strongest classes in the game in every respect. You're not even supposed to be using Fury against competent players. 

 

Watch Jaesung destroy people with his destroyer sometime, maybe that'll give you some insight (and it's not even his main, either): 

 

 

I hate it when people bring up Jaesung or any other PROFESSIONAL GAMMER. That is like saying, Look at Aaron Rogers, he can throw a ball far as hell, so you should be able to. Not the same level. Also  Jaesung  can play every class and destroy you. Anyone that references him or any other profession your post / comment is void. sorry

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Cogbyrn   
21 minutes ago, Bashnir said:

 

I hate it when people bring up Jaesung or any other PROFESSIONAL GAMMER. That is like saying, Look at Aaron Rogers, he can throw a ball far as hell, so you should be able to. Not the same level. Also  Jaesung  can play every class and destroy you. Anyone that references him or any other profession your post / comment is void. sorry

 

That analogy applies if people are complaining about the regulation size/shape/dimensions of the football to the NFL.  If you ask them to change because you (the general 'you') can't throw very well in your intramural league, that's the analogy to asking NCSoft to rebalance the game because you haven't yet acquired the skill to use the classes at a competitive level.

 

Why would they listen to you if you haven't put the time and effort in to master the game/train yourself to throw a football well?

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Bashnir   
51 minutes ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

That analogy applies if people are complaining about the regulation size/shape/dimensions of the football to the NFL.  If you ask them to change because you (the general 'you') can't throw very well in your intramural league, that's the analogy to asking NCSoft to rebalance the game because you haven't yet acquired the skill to use the classes at a competitive level.

 

Why would they listen to you if you haven't put the time and effort in to master the game/train yourself to throw a football well?

I understand, but he said "Watch Jaesung destroy people with his destroyer sometime, maybe that'll give you some insight (and it's not even his main, either):  " Who cares what Jaesung can do, he can destroy you on every char. All my point is using a pro gammer to prove a point is pretty pointless IMO. People complain DM are really bad in PVP, I bet I can find a video of Jaesung destroying kids with a BM.

 

I personally think PVP is fine, people that are having a hard time need to learn there class more, but more important you need to know what every class can do / learn when they have no escape up. Its just hard for kids now a days to have a challenge in a game when Blizzard killed that. The way these kids think now is .... I should be able to hit 1,2,3 and still win. If this doesn't happen then is QQ this class is OP, that class is OP. The QQ will never stop as Blizzard killed MMO's (IMO) give them EQ .... I would just laugh.

Edited by Bashnir

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