Mainly to force masters

[Caffynated]

As someone who plays BM and FM, it's definitely something most FMs need to work on. So many bad FMs go ham at the start of the pull and grab aggro, which pulls the boss out of my BM's ground AoEs massively reducing my opening threat. Then they run away from the boss like a chicken with its head cut off preventing anyone from getting aggro off of them. It's incredibly annoying. 

 

On FM the first thing I do in any fight is build ember stacks before starting to apply burning and DPS with inferno. That gives melee time to build threat and will make everything go more smoothly.

 

It's also very helpful to spec Windstorm so it doesn't generate any threat and spam it against grabbed targets. You will be doing pretty decent DPS and generating zero threat during a time when BM and KFM are putting out huge damage and building their threat.

 

Finally, take off the crit damage bracelet which comes with 16% increased threat. Of course you're getting aggro when you are generating 116% of the threat better players are because they didn't take an empty stat on their gear.

 

A little common sense goes a long way. I know younger generations never played a real PvE MMO where DPS were responsible for managing their threat and staying below the tank. More than one mage in EQ and vanilla WoW got guild kicked for pulling aggro in a raid. Maybe we need to go back to those days.

[Aerroon]

9 hours ago, Caffynated said:

As someone who plays BM and FM, it's definitely something most FMs need to work on. So many bad FMs go ham at the start of the pull and grab aggro, which pulls the boss out of my BM's ground AoEs massively reducing my opening threat. Then they run away from the boss like a chicken with its head cut off preventing anyone from getting aggro off of them. It's incredibly annoying. 

 

On FM the first thing I do in any fight is build ember stacks before starting to apply burning and DPS with inferno. That gives melee time to build threat and will make everything go more smoothly.

 

It's also very helpful to spec Windstorm so it doesn't generate any threat and spam it against grabbed targets. You will be doing pretty decent DPS and generating zero threat during a time when BM and KFM are putting out huge damage and building their threat.

 

Finally, take off the crit damage bracelet which comes with 16% increased threat. Of course you're getting aggro when you are generating 116% of the threat better players are because they didn't take an empty stat on their gear.

 

A little common sense goes a long way. I know younger generations never played a real PvE MMO where DPS were responsible for managing their threat and staying below the tank. More than one mage in EQ and vanilla WoW got guild kicked for pulling aggro in a raid. Maybe we need to go back to those days.

 

If we actually had a threat indicator I would agree, but we don't. It doesn't matter if I wait even 20 seconds before I engage at all. Once I do I will pull aggro down the line. The bracelet you're talking about can roll different stats - you can get crit rate and crit damage instead of a threat roll.

 

Essentially, if the FM has to run around too much you guys are doing a poor job CCing the boss. If the FM iframes then he will move behind the boss and a rather large distance which will move the boss.

[882184_1452550488]

1 hour ago, Aerroon said:

 

If we actually had a threat indicator I would agree, but we don't. It doesn't matter if I wait even 20 seconds before I engage at all. Once I do I will pull aggro down the line. The bracelet you're talking about can roll different stats - you can get crit rate and crit damage instead of a threat roll.

 

Essentially, if the FM has to run around too much you guys are doing a poor job CCing the boss. If the FM iframes then he will move behind the boss and a rather large distance which will move the boss.

and now we are back there again - you really want us melee to tank the boss, ccing the boss .. should we start go for the adds on blood mane too? make it more easier for you?.. to be fair you are a group you can cc to as FM , not just watch the high crit numbers like alot of the player are doing.

makes me just sick to read answers like that.

 

[Aerroon]

1 hour ago, 882184_1452550488 said:

and now we are back there again - you really want us melee to tank the boss, ccing the boss .. should we start go for the adds on blood mane too? make it more easier for you?.. to be fair you are a group you can cc to as FM , not just watch the high crit numbers like alot of the player are doing.

makes me just sick to read answers like that.

 

What do you mean with "go for the adds"? The adds are there to deal damage to the boss. You want there to be as many of those alive as possible. And, uh, what kind of skills do you want a FM to use that can "also CC" during boss fights? Other than [3] for ice laser I can't really think of anything unless you want the FM to aerial combo the boss or something.

[dmoe33]

1 hour ago, 882184_1452550488 said:

and now we are back there again - you really want us melee to tank the boss, ccing the boss .. should we start go for the adds on blood mane too? make it more easier for you?.. to be fair you are a group you can cc to as FM , not just watch the high crit numbers like alot of the player are doing.

makes me just sick to read answers like that.

 

Play an Fm, its not as easy as "just sitting back and dpsing" melee should CC boss in a pt of 6 that should be super easy unless u got like 4 fms. There's 2 main issues here: melees cant attack boss cause an fm is running away with it and 2 dps loss, what i find funny is when ppl say to an fm chill out on the dps for an fm when them chilling out on it probably creates less dps total, another thing is BM and KFM have a threat buff if they use it then most of the time noone else will steal aggro, im an FM and if they use it i almost never get aggro hell even summoners cat have one. So tldr dont cry cause bm/Kfm/summ have threat buffs and deses have grab, only ppl who can rlly complain are mabye BDs 

[Enamour]

Interesting reading these comments now since I've played both FM and BM a decent bit now.

 

I usually tank bosses in 24 man raids (cept Mysterious Man because fk that 4 fps life). The main thing for a BM to really keep aggro is their aggro rotation then burst that follows it to build up a ton of aggro. So far, to do this, I need to actually have the boss hit my block. As a FM, try to give your tank at least a few seconds to proc Cyclone for the 30 second buff. This way, we can pop Blade Call, go to Draw Stance and Five Point Strike while our Blade Call is about to drop some major damage. The Cyclone 30 second buff + the 300% Threat from Five Point is what we need to really lock aggro down. After I FPS, I usually Flash Step x3 if it procs then I pretty much have permanent aggro as long as I'm rotating properly and Cycloning off cooldown. My Blade Master is True Profane with a Threat bracelet.

 

However, if someone really geared or with a really solid rotation is able to keep their damage going, I find that aggro CAN pop off the tank every now and then but as long as I can get a Cyclone to pull it back and a FPS to build up more threat, I can keep it about 90-95% of the time against a siren FM.

 

So in conclusion, it isn't just the tank's fault or the FM's fault solely, it's a group collaboration.

 

To Force Master's: Let us establish aggro before you drop all of your DPS on a boss.

 

To Blade Master's: Properly build up your aggro at the start of a fight and improve on your threat rotations. Make sure you're fighting in a way where you can get off both aggro skills while avoiding the boss's mechanics. A good place to practice would be Blood Mane in Nightshade Harbor.

[ToulueVang]

I seriously don't know why Fm run around so much when they have aggro lol. Do they not think about other players having to chase them? When I get aggro on my Fm I just go into thank mode. Ez af with Fm's dodging q,e,ss, and ice. It also makes u look like a bad ass because almost all FM will run around like chickens when they get aggro.

[Brainy]

It doesn't matter who tanks. If you run around with the boss it's just plain annoying and you are basically helping more by being dead.

As a Destroyer, I hate people who move the boss around. My only viable damage while moving comes from Fury which lasts 6 sec and is on a 45 sec cd...

 

I'm 100% sure people who constantly pull aggro are aware of it. Please, spec a build that allows you to tank / survive enough till you lose aggro.

[LeylaBlackthorn]

38 minutes ago, ToulueVang said:

I seriously don't know why Fm run around so much when they have aggro lol. Do they not think about other players having to chase them? When I get aggro on my Fm I just go into thank mode. Ez af with Fm's dodging q,e,ss, and ice. It also makes u look like a bad ass because almost all FM will run around like chickens when they get aggro.

 

Touloue got it, as FM you can Tank the most Bosses if you want so, and that without running around like a chicken. 

 

Didnt run laby yet but bsh and poh the bosses attack so slow i can heal myself full with frost fury, before i got the next hit. So when i pull aggro, i stand still and try to hold boss on his actual place, even when i use q,e or ss i run back to the boss so he only turn around but didnt move so much. Bad case for the sin but a better than a running boss :D 

 

[Yesma]

Damn, I really hope most FM or ranged class don't have the mindsets of some here... OP simply asks to keep the fight running smoothly if ranged dps gets aggro, and gets shut down with "then learn to keep aggro," "You're just an undergeared scrub I'm carrying" among other things. Get off your high horse.

 

Tanks, and all melee for that matter, need to watch for animations/aoe much more frequently than ranged. We need to time our defenses/evasions correctly that take time away from dps'ing. Then we need to keep on top of dps, especially the tank. We do not need another thing to worry about from a ranged dps who keeps taking aggro and prolonging the fight, and no, you're not making it faster by dpsing it harder when all the melee need to chase it around. This is assuming you and other ranged dps don't vastly outgear the melee, and that the run actually requires coordination - we're not talking about Brightstone Ruins. Understand that whoever is attempting to tank is most likely trying his damnest, while some of you are demanding him to l2p and unloading just because you can. He needs to do all the above while you can just fling spells at it. Is it truly so difficult to adjust your damage output if you're pulling aggro and making things more difficult for ALL the melee?

 

Other mmo's including WoW would require that dps, ranged especially, watch their aggro. Failure to do so can result in deaths not just the aggro'er but others as the boss runs out of control. Ranged that kept pulling aggro were promptly kicked or scolded. Be glad in this game everything goes and everyone can potentially tank without argument.

[Teffy]

FM Actually has one of the best CC in the game.I can solo CC almost all the time(and all the time if dps is not some crazy shit) by mostly just Tab(Heatwave).3 I use only if boss resist the tab.

With 458 attack and abit over 60%(63 with buff) crit rate and 213% crit dmg trust me even If I spam just lb,rb,2 I get agro from nearly everyone and when I use full dps even good tank(one of the rare) strugle sometimes.

 

[SeroZeroes]

5 hours ago, Yesma said:

Damn, I really hope most FM or ranged class don't have the mindsets of some here... OP simply asks to keep the fight running smoothly if ranged dps gets aggro, and gets shut down with "then learn to keep aggro," "You're just an undergeared scrub I'm carrying" among other things. Get off your high horse.

 

Tanks, and all melee for that matter, need to watch for animations/aoe much more frequently than ranged. We need to time our defenses/evasions correctly that take time away from dps'ing. Then we need to keep on top of dps, especially the tank. We do not need another thing to worry about from a ranged dps who keeps taking aggro and prolonging the fight, and no, you're not making it faster by dpsing it harder when all the melee need to chase it around. This is assuming you and other ranged dps don't vastly outgear the melee, and that the run actually requires coordination - we're not talking about Brightstone Ruins. Understand that whoever is attempting to tank is most likely trying his damnest, while some of you are demanding him to l2p and unloading just because you can. He needs to do all the above while you can just fling spells at it. Is it truly so difficult to adjust your damage output if you're pulling aggro and making things more difficult for ALL the melee?

 

Other mmo's including WoW would require that dps, ranged especially, watch their aggro. Failure to do so can result in deaths not just the aggro'er but others as the boss runs out of control. Ranged that kept pulling aggro were promptly kicked or scolded. Be glad in this game everything goes and everyone can potentially tank without argument.

 

And that is why people left WoW. It is a truly casual MMO targetted at the generally public. In fact, it's the entry MMO for lots of first-time mmo players. Many MMORPGs before WoW has created tanks with threat capacity that in good hands, will never lose the aggro. 

 

Let's use this game for an example, I have seen a good KFM, with only True Siren gear, tank the entire fight for poharan in 24men. WITHOUT threat gear. My guild party was there with True pirate gear, and we don't suck that bad either, we cleared Mushin 8th 3rd phase already if that will convince you of our skills. But not once, did this KFM lose the aggro to any of us, or anyone else at poh, during the entire fight.

 

If a dps has to slow down their rotation for threat purposes, this means 2 things:

1. The game mechanics are horrible, threat build-up for tank classes are not made well
2. The tank itself are lacking the gear/skills

And clearly it is the latter, because my guild and I have seen, and experienced ourselves, what a truly capable tank is able to achieve, even with weaker gear.
Granted it requires really high skill proficiency in your class to achieve, but it is definitely made possible by game mechanics WITHOUT telling DPS to slow down.

 

Imagine the day you have a enrage base boss (imagine 4men mushin 3rd phase that needs a tank), that is unclearable without a tank absorbing most of the attacks. You will want that proficient tank that can hold his own without DPS messing up their rotation just to slow down DPS and risk enrage. 

 

So bottom note:

It really is a L2P issue, because the tank isn't good enough, and the DPS knows their skill-cycle better, he will lose aggro.

Of course, in simple 24men fights, such tanks are hard to find, and if the DPS really gets aggro, what OP said about small area kiting should eb done to help the general public.
But I will have to disagree with your point of 'DPS have to watch threat for tanks'.

[Teffy]

I spend a lot of gold to have good gear and good dps.Whats the point to have top gear and stats if I can't use my dps on 100%? I'm not retard and I don't throw the big artillery right after we start the boss,but still I'm tanking....nearly all the time unless there is this 1% tanks that actually can tank...and I have seen people with equal to my gear that can't tank for shit.So is it my faut that I try to have best stats/gear?

[DBug]

The threat system itself needs to be redesigned. It should be easier for someone who has aggro to maintain it over someone who's out-DPSing them by a small margin or for a brief period.

 

There's also the terribad framerate to consider but if that was the sole issue, you wouldn't be stealing aggro because you would be dropping rotations. That said, if you can't tank, you shouldn't be DPSing enough to steal aggro and you should be more conservative with your rotations. Unless you're a forcemaster, then you should also uninstall because you're just a bad player if you can't facetank with FM.

[Tsunakai]

On 2/28/2016 at 2:42 PM, Caffynated said:

 

A little common sense goes a long way. I know younger generations never played a real PvE MMO where DPS were responsible for managing their threat and staying below the tank. More than one mage in EQ and vanilla WoW got guild kicked for pulling aggro in a raid. Maybe we need to go back to those days.

 

Then they invented threat/dps measurement meters, and discovered they had so much trouble meeting enrage timers because they were asking the dps to cool off so the tanks could be lazy. Many a progression team discovered that the dps minimums required in post fight report from meter logs that, the dps meeting the required mimimum for the raid had higher threat than the tanks, this problem meaning that the ones with lower threat had it because they relaxed their dps, they hit enrage on boss and wiped as a result. They then realised that the dps wasn't the problem, it was the tanks.

 

I love seeing people proclaim FM is easy because you are ranged, because bosses just blatantly ignore ranged classes. I most frequently see Des/BD saying this also, 2 literal definitions of easy mode classes. If you want the boss tanked a certain way, then take the aggro, and keep it, which every class can do regardless, but while an FM has aggro, he can do ballroom dancing with the boss for all he cares. The fact that KFM/BM can successfully get and hold aggro from anyone, regardless of other factors means that, any that can't simply aren't good enough.

[TwoPunchMan]

2 hours ago, Tsunakai said:

 

Then they invented threat/dps measurement meters, and discovered they had so much trouble meeting enrage timers because they were asking the dps to cool off so the tanks could be lazy. Many a progression team discovered that the dps minimums required in post fight report from meter logs that, the dps meeting the required mimimum for the raid had higher threat than the tanks, this problem meaning that the ones with lower threat had it because they relaxed their dps, they hit enrage on boss and wiped as a result. They then realised that the dps wasn't the problem, it was the tanks.

 

I love seeing people proclaim FM is easy because you are ranged, because bosses just blatantly ignore ranged classes. I most frequently see Des/BD saying this also, 2 literal definitions of easy mode classes. If you want the boss tanked a certain way, then take the aggro, and keep it, which every class can do regardless, but while an FM has aggro, he can do ballroom dancing with the boss for all he cares. The fact that KFM/BM can successfully get and hold aggro from anyone, regardless of other factors means that, any that can't simply aren't good enough.

 

As a person that plays both destroyer and forcemaster extensively in pve, I can say that FM (and summoner) is definitely the easier class to play. Destroyer and possibly LBM (not sure haven't played) may have simpler combo rotations but they also have to know every single boss mechanic to migate/evade in order dps effeciently where as forcemaster only needs to know how to do their rotations properly and maybe understand a thing or two about the boss but thats it. In most fights it really isn't hard to maxmize damage on an ranged class.

 

What makes it even worse is that fm has one of the highest dps in the game where as classes like destroyer has the lowest dps. people say they have decent damage but thats only assuming that the destroyer can just stand still the entire fight and animation cancel with no care in the world. In practice, the moment a destroyer has to use I-frame skills or spin (one has a huge wind-up time and another is just a massive loss in dps), an fm would be able to outdps them hard just spamming with zero interruptions from distance. Thats why I find it unreasonable when people say that destroyer (and maybe lbm?) should get aggro over fm or even summoners when those melee classes have zero reliable threat generating abilities and only average to low dps to to boot. This dps gap is only made worse as destroyer and lbm is also expected to CC the boss for 6 seconds which means they aren't doing any damage while the FM would be generating even more hate spamming that windstorm like a madman. Another thing most people fail to realize is that destroyer needs to be standing still to do maximum damage, once the aggro is on fm, there is pretty much zero chances of a destroyer getting that aggro back.

 

my FM has really average gear ( just profane weapon) and bloodshade shields and I always manage to pull aggro off siren/pirate destroyers/lbms when they either have to CC or avoid boss attacks, its not like they played bad either. they ani cancel just fine and there weren't any glaring problems either with their plays. Now just imagine if they had the same gear as my fm, they would have almost zero chance of getting aggro.

[Brainy]

@Tsunakai

Are you seriously comparing Des aggro with KFM/BM ?

I'm sorry, but I can't be "good enough" when my only aggro skill is on a 36 sec cd, increasing threat by 50% for 6 seconds...

 

Let me put Destroyer and KFM aggro skills next to each other:

 

6 sec every 36 sec, 50% aggro

    VS

15 sec every 9 sec, 150% aggro

10 sec every counter (1.3 sec), 150% aggro.

 

BM has an even longer aggro buff + their 5 point strike generates 300% threat...

 

FMs ARE easy (talking about PvE here). I have a few guild mates that have FM alts, they confirmed it over and over. It's also clearly visible since they take aggro on their alts with crap gear.

 

I forgot to add, Destroyers are pretty much expected to CC/pick up the boss and in that time they basically do no damage while giving the other players more damage (infinite chi + more crit rate).

[Dlacik]

Both KFM and BM can keep 100% uptime of their +150% threat buff and both have high dmg skill with +300% threat every 45s. So even if they have lower gear than FM they can easily hold agro since FM needs to outdps them by huge amount. The problem is when tank doesn`t know the pattern of boss well and don`t manage to avoid knock downs/stuns/knock backs since these are threat dumps.

[Enhance]

As FM, I don't remember the last time someone else was tanking the boss. And I also do CC/party protection skills and I run in circles/q/e/v/tab, but do my best to keep the boss in place for other party members to deal their 'deeps. Haven't heard any complaints so far, and never thought that tanking the boss would be something for players to get angry about. Guess I'll be using my training bangle for smoother runs ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Tsunakai]

You missed entirely the point of what i'm saying.

 

Btw, bosses move into their attack range, closing the gap on yours, there are also raid wide aoe attacks, and circle attacks that reach to maximum attack range.

There are also mimimum ranges from which you must be from the boss. At max range on blood mane? Not anymore, and don't you think about going there again. At max range on scorpion queen? Dead the moment you get aggro. This forces the ranged class into close range, and the easiest way to keep the boss still is being closer to them, meaning alot of the advantages gained from being a ranged aggro holder are negated by the mechanics pushing you into the boss's attack range. Also remember FM/Summ don't have a block/counter ability and have aggro a majority of the time. Iframes must be timed perfectly and if wasted can be incredibly costly. Destroyer and blade cancer have an infinite iframe in their spin. Btw in case you haven't forgotten, it's the mechanics for ranged aggro holders that mean the FM/Summ must use their own iframes, meaning they stop doing damage while they are doing that. Countering from block does damage, FM/Summ iframes don't do damage.

 

By your logic, destroyers and blade cancers are literally a waste of time and don't belong in dungeons, they offer nothing and would serve to only get carried by ranged classes.

[Brainy]

^ Did you really wait 3 weeks so you can post this ?

 

Also...

21 minutes ago, Tsunakai said:

Destroyer and blade cancer have an infinite iframe in their spin.

...excuse me ?! o.O

[Zedonia]

It's really simple:

 

If there is no KFM and no BM in the group, I don't even care about holding back because I know the other classes are not able to hold aggro against me anyway (got 489 ap, 52% cc and ~ 200% cdmg) even if the others got 500 and more ap with good crit (saw one person with 560 ap and of course I had aggro the whole time).

 

Offtopic: That above is a very good exmplae why this searching for People with at least xxx ap is useless. You have to separate the classes. A fm will easily do more damage than most classes even with 50 ap less so stop that bullshit. Offtopic ends here

 

If there is a BM and/or a KFM in the Group I EXPECT that he will tank. I do my best to do good dps and so the one who plays a tank class should also do his best to hold aggro. If he can't do that it is not my problem.

 

I also do what other People said before, running not far away from the boss and so on because that way he isn't moving very much. And if a melee player can't run 3 meters he should not start to cry about range classes because he is just bad.

 

Personally, until now I had not a single Person who complained about me having aggro so I think this "problem" exists only for a handful People (like the most problems).