Is this pay to win

[Cetra]

Just now, Enamour said:

 

I'm asking where in my post did I ever take any stance? Quote me. All I said was that by your standards, most games are pay to win. Where are you getting this other stuff? I'm actually quite perplexed and I feel like you're getting something out of nothing.

You're taking a "stance" by claiming "most other games are p2w" by my standards.  You're going to have to elaborate quite a bit more before you illicit a response from me because I disagree with the statements "most other games are p2w".  There are plenty of games that the in-game currency does not allow you to level, craft or buy end-game gear content.

[Enamour]

6 minutes ago, Cetra said:

You're taking a "stance" by claiming "most other games are p2w" by my standards.  You're going to have to elaborate quite a bit more before you illicit a response from me because I disagree with the statements "most other games are p2w".  There are plenty of games that the in-game currency does not allow you to level, craft or buy end-game gear content.

 

I used your criteria and made an observation, as I've stated before. It would actually require no reply from you because it is just that, an observation. I would have to imply with additional statements whether or not it's good or bad or what my stance is, which I did not. If you disagree with the statement then say so and feel free to give me an example or two where selling anything with money could not translate to any gains in a game.

 

Also, I never attacked you and my examples were based only on the criteria you've listed earlier. I do not assume any extra information for the most part (i.e. the additional information you would consider pay to win) when I replied. So why the hostility and instead, why not just say you're disagreeing rather than making presumptions based on an observation made on your standards?

[AlcatelOneTouch]

1 hour ago, Akamu said:

Beautiful example of somebody who is inept, or they play a different way. Not everyone worries about maxing gear until they're level 45.

I haven't spent a cent, but my gear has been maxed and evolved to the limit of my level. So what's your excuse? I didn't even have to grind; I used my brain. Blight Staff aren't even that expensive. You could easily kill Deva at level 45 for one hour and have plenty of money for upgrading. Also, maybe that's your server? Or maybe it's simply that people who are willing to play more are willing to pay more? Screenshots wouldn't prove anything.

Use your brain.

Yeah, when you are premium and have drop from mobs you really do not "spent a cent"....

[Cetra]

Just now, Enamour said:

 

I used your criteria and made an observation, as I've stated before. It would actually require no reply from you because it is just that, an observation. I would have to imply with additional statements whether or not it's good or bad or what my stance is, which I did not. If you disagree with the statement then say so and feel free to give me an example of two where selling anything with money could not translate to any gains in a game.

 

Also, I never attacked you and my examples were based only on the criteria you've listed earlier. I do not assume any extra information for the most part (i.e. the additional information you would consider pay to win) when I replied. So why the hostility and instead, why not just say you're disagreeing rather than making presumptions based on an observation made on your standards?

And I'm using your criteria to make an observation of my own.  My statements require no more of an explanation than yours, I requested that you elaborate and you ducked.  I never implied that you were attacking me either, you fabricated that idea yourself.  I've already explained what people gain, it's the fault of your own if you fail to comprehend what has already been said. 

[Enamour]

1 minute ago, Cetra said:

And I'm using your criteria to make an observation of my own.  My statements require no more of an explanation than yours, I requested that you elaborate and you ducked.  I never implied that you were attacking me either, you fabricated that idea yourself.  I've already explained what people gain, it's the fault of your own if you fail to comprehend what has already been said. 

There's no elaboration needed. In any other game, you can use real life money to get stats, equipment, mats, or level faster. There's nothing else that has to be said as you can make your own inferences.

 

Also, I love the derogatory manner in which you speak. Respect would actually take you a lot further. You could have simply said "Well this game doesn't allow you to get this, this, and that" in which case my response would be "Well I stand corrected" and this would have been done. You accuse me of dodging but "dodge" yourself, then go on to belittle me.

 

This conversation will actually go no where, even if I elaborate because you're more intent on how I must be (see: "supporting RMT" which is preposterous at best) rather than stating your point without attempting to play cat and mouse.

 

OP actually got his answer so I shouldn't go any further in a debate that would most likely see no end (well aside from whatever insults you'll presume/throw).

[Cetra]

Just now, Enamour said:

There's no elaboration needed. In any other game, you can use real life money to get stats, equipment, mats, or level faster. There's nothing else that has to be said as you can make your own inferences.

 

Also, I love the derogatory manner in which you speak. Respect would actually take you a lot further. You could have simply said "Well this game doesn't allow you to get this, this, and that" in which case my response would be "Well I stand corrected" and this would have been done. You accuse me of dodging but "dodge" yourself, then go on to belittle me.

 

This conversation will actually go no where, even if I elaborate because you're more intent on how I must be (see: "supporting RMT" which is preposterous at best) rather than stating your point without attempting to play cat and mouse.

 

OP actually got his answer so I shouldn't go any further in a debate that would most likely see no end (well aside from whatever insults you'll presume/throw).

Yes, elaboration is certainly needed to validate your statements and I'll give you an example of why.  The statement: "In any other game, you can use real life money to get stats, equipment, mats or level faster" is completely false.  Perhaps in some games but not "any", which is one of many examples I'm providing to you as to why your statements require elaborating.  I'm also puzzled as to why you love the idea of being spoken to in a derogatory manner, which I might add I have not.  If anything, perhaps it could be considered that I was slightly condescending, need to work on that grammar.  If think you're being belittled in anyway, that's your fault as I'm not responsible for how you perceive things.

I'm in agreement with you however, with the suggestion that this conversation will go nowhere.  I don't feel that you're capable of comprehending the discussion at hand regardless of how clearly it's spelled out for you.  I'm perfectly fine with putting an end to our exchange.

[Temjiu]

p2w discussion is much like favorite car discussion. everyone has an opinion of what p2w is, and it will differ from person to person. here's my definiton:

 

p2w exists when there are game critical progression aspects that you need, but you can't get unless you pay out real money. but it's not a firm drawn line...there is a threshold of which it becomes p2w even if the items are available through just playing.

 

That threshold is based on average players ability to get said items by just playing. if the threshold is too high, then only players who spend an unhealth amount of time playing will get, unless they put money into the game.

 

This game does not meet that threshold. it certainly is more difficult initially for those who do not put money into the game, and there are certain QoL aspects (that do NOT impact game play) that are locked out unless you go premium (like wardrobe), but the capability for a f1p player to get stuff is still within reach of the average player. play smart, save money, and use crafts wisely, and you will turn out positive.

 

outside of that, the cash shop items (many of them) are horribly overpriced. but those items are in no way needed to play the game, or succeed. The issues with cash shop costs, and rarity of items in game impact both f2p and Prem's alike. 

 

Take that as you wish. 

 

My last note: people need to get out of their heads the idea that a game can be free. it doesn't exist...companies need to make money, and they will take every chance they can get to motivate people to invest. the key is how they do it. not if it's free or not.

[Waterstream]

8 minutes ago, Cetra said:

Yes, elaboration is certainly needed to validate your statements and I'll give you an example of why.  The statement: "In any other game, you can use real life money to get stats, equipment, mats or level faster" is completely false.  Perhaps in some games but not "any", which is one of many examples I'm providing to you as to why your statements require elaborating.  I'm also puzzled as to why you love the idea of being spoken to in a derogatory manner, which I might add I have not.  If anything, perhaps it could be considered that I was slightly condescending, need to work on that grammar.  If think you're being belittled in anyway, that's your fault as I'm not responsible for how you perceive things.

I'm in agreement with you however, with the suggestion that this conversation will go nowhere.  I don't feel that you're capable of comprehending the discussion at hand regardless of how clearly it's spelled out for you.  I'm perfectly fine with putting an end to our exchange.

If you would like to have some elaboration I shall give some. As i stated in my previous post every game that includes any mean of obtaining gear in a multiplayer experience offers the possibility to obtain this gear by spending real money. The most trivial example would be to literally pay someone to farm my gear. This is obviously not avoidable so let's ignore that point for now. Let's have a look at the most used ways of gaining gear in MMO's.

1. Tradable Gear

This is one of the options making it the easiest to obtain character progress by spending money. You can just pay someone real money instead of ingame currency to get your item.

2. Tradable ingame currency.

This one is basicly the same concept as 1. It just involves one more step in actually obtaining the item.

3. Farming/Grinding certain spots for materials.

In every game there is a part of the community which exceeds the average player's level of gear and experience by far and is therefore able to farm very efficiently. It is therefore very possible to go ahead and pay such a player or a group of such players to help you farm this materials. If you had just to be in the party to get a reward you could literally just stand afk doing something else and get geared by contributing nothing.

4. Dungeons/Raids

The concept in 3. translates onto this topic as well. An experienced raid can easily compensate one or two missing members and therefore sell these spots to people wanting to get the gear without knowledge or skill to complete this raid. If they pay enough it is mostlikely that even stuff like legendary drops or similar items might be sold that way. The effectivity of this method get decreased by the ID-system only allowing to enter a raid once during a certain time period though, which might delay the moment this actually takes place in terms of distance to a content's release.

 

This concept can be translated on nearly every other MMO character progress method that involves more than one player, as long as there are players willing to be paid for certain actions. Following this logic every upgrade that is not gated using solo player content can be overcome by spending a sufficient amount of money, but since we are currently talking about MMO's I would consider the amount of this kind of upgrades rather low.

 

This is in no way a claim that the system here is perfect. It is has some obvious flaws and makes it rather easy to convert money into character progression, but if we only talk about character progression it is nearly unavoidable to have some kind of way to do so in  MMO's in general and should therefore not be used as a property characterizing MMO's that support pay to win options.

[Cetra]

24 minutes ago, Temjiu said:

p2w discussion is much like favorite car discussion. everyone has an opinion of what p2w is, and it will differ from person to person. here's my definiton:

 

p2w exists when there are game critical progression aspects that you need, but you can't get unless you pay out real money. but it's not a firm drawn line...there is a threshold of which it becomes p2w even if the items are available through just playing.

 

That threshold is based on average players ability to get said items by just playing. if the threshold is too high, then only players who spend an unhealth amount of time playing will get, unless they put money into the game.

 

This game does not meet that threshold. it certainly is more difficult initially for those who do not put money into the game, and there are certain QoL aspects (that do NOT impact game play) that are locked out unless you go premium (like wardrobe), but the capability for a f1p player to get stuff is still within reach of the average player. play smart, save money, and use crafts wisely, and you will turn out positive.

 

outside of that, the cash shop items (many of them) are horribly overpriced. but those items are in no way needed to play the game, or succeed. The issues with cash shop costs, and rarity of items in game impact both f2p and Prem's alike. 

 

Take that as you wish. 

 

My last note: people need to get out of their heads the idea that a game can be free. it doesn't exist...companies need to make money, and they will take every chance they can get to motivate people to invest. the key is how they do it. not if it's free or not.

 

10 minutes ago, Waterstream said:

If you would like to have some elaboration I shall give some. As i stated in my previous post every game that includes any mean of obtaining gear in a multiplayer experience offers the possibility to obtain this gear by spending real money. The most trivial example would be to literally pay someone to farm my gear. This is obviously not avoidable so let's ignore that point for now. Let's have a look at the most used ways of gaining gear in MMO's.

1. Tradable Gear

This is one of the options making it the easiest to obtain character progress by spending money. You can just pay someone real money instead of ingame currency to get your item.

2. Tradable ingame currency.

This one is basicly the same concept as 1. It just involves one more step in actually obtaining the item.

3. Farming/Grinding certain spots for materials.

In every game there is a part of the community which exceeds the average player's level of gear and experience by far and is therefore able to farm very efficiently. It is therefore very possible to go ahead and pay such a player or a group of such players to help you farm this materials. If you had just to be in the party to get a reward you could literally just stand afk doing something else and get geared by contributing nothing.

4. Dungeons/Raids

The concept in 3. translates onto this topic as well. An experienced raid can easily compensate one or two missing members and therefore sell these spots to people wanting to get the gear without knowledge or skill to complete this raid. If they pay enough it is mostlikely that even stuff like legendary drops or similar items might be sold that way. The effectivity of this method get decreased by the ID-system only allowing to enter a raid once during a certain time period though, which might delay the moment this actually takes place in terms of distance to a content's release.

 

This concept can be translated on nearly every other MMO character progress method that involves more than one player, as long as there are players willing to be paid for certain actions. Following this logic every upgrade that is not gated using solo player content can be overcome by spending a sufficient amount of money, but since we are currently talking about MMO's I would consider the amount of this kind of upgrades rather low.

 

This is in no way a claim that the system here is perfect. It is has some obvious flaws and makes it rather easy to convert money into character progression, but if we only talk about character progression it is nearly unavoidable to have some kind of way to do so in  MMO's in general and should therefore not be used as a property characterizing MMO's that support pay to win options.

Fair enough and the explanations are appreciated.