Classes' power and rank distribution: the problem and solution

[Roxefeller]

3 minutes ago, Duniak said:

 If you weren't in silver you'd have known KFM is Summoner's counter. Not as good as FM or Destro, but KFM is favoured.

 

Okay, summoners are not OP, F11 lies. Last Imperial tournament, like 2 days ago? 1st place: Scummoner. 2nd place: Scummoner 3rd place: Scummoner 4th place: Blade Cancer. There goes your balance. Or are those players silvers? Stfu if you don't know shit about meta and high level pvp. ^^

Imperial BnS is only one representation of top tier pvpers. Imperial BnS tournaments only consist of players WANTING to participate. If more than half of the participants are summoners and blade dancers, what do you expect? By the way, balance is not to blame that more skilled players wanted to play summoner in the tournament. Guess what? A few tournaments back, a Force Master won the Imperial BnS tournament. There were plenty of Summoners and Blade Dancers then? So what's your point?

 

I've always known KFM is the hard counter to summoner. Actually KFM is an even harder counter to Summoner than FM and Destro.

So where do you get from my post that I'm complaining about summoners? I have no trouble fighting them as a KFM and never have. Are you so incompetent that you can't comprehend what I'm saying is, Summoners are not OP, I am a KFM so I am not biased in my stance on the matter. Is that a little more spelled out for you?

[Roxefeller]

6 minutes ago, Duniak said:

 

Oh, almost forgot. Read all KR patches kiddo, there were tweaks and balance patches, so there goes your shitty point about balance. Then again, as KFM, you have versatile BALANCED class, that doesn't SUCK against ANYONE. From your perspective, slightly favourable matchup with scummoner is "balanced". Well, Radeyz still gets rekt by Scummoners on a daily basis. #iplayeveryclasssoyoucansuckmyballsasipvpwith7classesandknoweverythingabouteverymatchupsostfukiddowithyourkfmshit #ialsowinagainstscummonersaskfmfmanddestroyetiknowtheyareop

Are you really that dense?

Tweaks and balance patches that were made in KR... and we are following all of these balance patches. There goes your pointless rebuttal.

[Roxefeller]

9 minutes ago, Duniak said:

#iplayeveryclasssoyoucansuckmyballsasipvpwith7classesandknoweverythingabouteverymatchupsostfukiddowithyourkfmshit #ialsowinagainstscummonersaskfmfmanddestroyetiknowtheyareop

Lol at this most of all. Just because you play every class doesn't make you an expert. If you already lack the required intelligence to utilize the information/experience that you would gain from playing every class (which clearly you do since you can't comprehend even the simplest of sentences)... you will not gain anything from playing every class.

 

[voodooblade]

11 minutes ago, Roxefeller said:

 

 

Hey it's NCSoft's biggest fan boy. Like i said all your post are defending the product. To include hackers/exploiters. How much do they pay you? And if they don't they should. 

[NiiaZa]

7 minutes ago, Roxefeller said:

I guess you don't bother reading or your brain just can't process reading something as simple as #imakfmsoimnotbiasedtowardsummoner

I'm a KFM and only a KFM. Game is balanced as it is now. Future patches only release more tools for each class to catch up to some other classes in terms of tools in their skillset.

Try reading your post back to yourself. You state that you're not talking about future patches, but early on in your post your argument rests on the game being balanced around lvl50 content(future patch).

 

Also, if you were even the least bit intelligent you would notice that I quoted your post "Shut your mouth if u don't know anything about BnS." which was in response to FMP's post, "it's balanced you just suck"

This is indirectly talking about balanced/unbalanced

 

 

 

early on in my post i was trying to show you only for the balance thing when lv 50 contest come but right now u think it is balance? i dont think so, you think its fair that some class vs some class? I disagree with you its just your thinking not my.

 

As for the post when i was response to FMP's its not because he posted ''it's balanced'' quotes but because the ''You just suck''. For me when someone told me im suck i have every right to tell them back that shut your mouth about BnS.    So what about you? if someone tell you that you suck, what are you going to tell them?? ''Thank you so much''??

 

As for my first first first first post on this thread just only talking about summoner thing not whining or complain about anything else

[Roxefeller]

2 minutes ago, voodooblade said:

 

Hey it's NCSoft's biggest fan boy. Like i said all your post are defending the product. To include hackers/exploiters. How much do they pay you? And if they don't they should. 

Lol when have I ever defended exploiters/hackers? If you're referring to my poist in regards to summoners exploiting to give their pet more HP: I replied to your post that their pet having more HP makes no difference to me. How is this defending them? I'm a KFM and only a KFM... so no I am not biased toward summoner.

[voodooblade]

Just now, Roxefeller said:

Lol when have I ever defended exploiters/hackers? If you're referring to my poist in regards to summoners exploiting to give their pet more HP: I replied to your post that their pet having more HP makes no difference to me. How is this defending them? I'm a KFM and only a KFM... so no I am not biased toward summoner.

 

 

 

 

" and you REALLY think that Summoner's being able to bug a skill to give their pet extra HP makes that much of a difference? News flash, no it doesn't. If you can't beat a summoner, you can't beat a summoner. Either you're the type to practice and find out how to beat them, give up and accept that you can't beat them or waste time on forums bitching about balance. "

Defending the paw glitch that gives hp and def, as well as attack damage. 

[Roxefeller]

1 minute ago, voodooblade said:

 

 

 

 

" and you REALLY think that Summoner's being able to bug a skill to give their pet extra HP makes that much of a difference? News flash, no it doesn't. If you can't beat a summoner, you can't beat a summoner. Either you're the type to practice and find out how to beat them, give up and accept that you can't beat them or waste time on forums bitching about balance. "

Defending the paw glitch that gives hp and def, as well as attack damage. 

How is that defending them? I clearly state that it makes no difference to me. If you can't beat a summoner than you can't beat a summoner. Simple.

[voodooblade]

1 minute ago, Roxefeller said:

How is that defending them? I clearly state that it makes no difference to me. If you can't beat a summoner than you can't beat a summoner. Simple.

 

Defend Second definition "speak or write in favor of (an action or person); attempt to justify"

" and you REALLY think that Summoner's being able to bug a skill to give their pet extra HP makes that much of a difference? News flash, no it doesn't. If you can't beat a summoner, you can't beat a summoner. Either you're the type to practice and find out how to beat them, give up and accept that you can't beat them or waste time on forums bitching about balance. "

[Roxefeller]

1 minute ago, voodooblade said:

 

Defend Second definition "speak or write in favor of (an action or person); attempt to justify"

" and you REALLY think that Summoner's being able to bug a skill to give their pet extra HP makes that much of a difference? News flash, no it doesn't. If you can't beat a summoner, you can't beat a summoner. Either you're the type to practice and find out how to beat them, give up and accept that you can't beat them or waste time on forums bitching about balance. "

Stating that whatever they do to exploit makes no difference to me is in no way defending them or justifying their actions. Simply stating that if you can't beat them, you can't beat them. Even without their exploit I'm sure those here complaining still wouldn't be able to beat them. Enjoy reading in between the nonexistent lines.

[SereneGrace]

1 hour ago, Zooks said:

So you want to give classes handicaps. lmao.... 

Our developers can't change a damn thing when it comes to actual in-game content. People expecting balance patches are going to be disappointed. Next time we see a balance patch will be when they get the next KR patch localized. 

 

Honestly it's the least and easiest thing they can do really, without say nerfing a class in pvp and then it affects pve for example.

[voodooblade]

2 minutes ago, Roxefeller said:

Stating that whatever they do to exploit makes no difference to me is in no way defending them or justifying their actions. Simply stating that if you can't beat them, you can't beat them. Even without their exploit I'm sure those here complaining still wouldn't be able to beat them. Enjoy reading in between the nonexistent lines.

Defend "speak or write in favor of (an action or person); attempt to justify"

Justify 2nd definition " to provide or be a good reason for (something) : to prove or show (something) to be just, right, or reasonable"

You are trying to make the glitch seem reasonable by stating it makes no difference. please note the use of 'OR".

[Kensho1996]

38 minutes ago, Balmafra said:

This thread = played a few games in ranked and gave up. Play a couple hundred then talk. You'll be surprised how quickly you understand pvp and what/what not to do and how to do your matchups.

sorry I understand what you are saying BUT it is BS as well ..

 

generally speaking all I have learned is how to use the palm of my hand to mash all the buttons on the left side of my keyboard ..

 

IF i want to have a better time in the low end PvP I need to macro my attacks of course this I NOT going to help later on BUT nor is the fact that normally there is nothing I can do as the switches in battle are too fast to figure out .. THIS is in part due to the lag in the arena for me I will admit BUT the fact that you also have to contend with ani canceling which is impossible with even minor lag..

 

I have a 60 and 20 internet connection IN the NA and YET the lag is insane 

 

 

FYI I had less lag playing on the China servers

[Zooks]

3 minutes ago, SereneGrace said:

 

Honestly it's the least and easiest thing they can do really, without say nerfing a class in pvp and then it affects pve for example.

 

The easiest thing they could do is ignore the outcry on the forums and continue pushing out KR patches which is exactly what they're going to do. 

[pixymisa]

IMO the easiest way to fix the balance issues is to:

Set the base attack damage stat of Cat familiars in arena to 100 less than what it currently is.

 

For BD some changes are needed

Take flight should not be 0 Focus if upgraded, Make this cost 2-3 focus.  In PVE Take flight is a obnoxious move anyways The dev team should consider moving Take flight off of F and on to 3 for instance.  For BM take flight should be moved to 3 as well.

BD need to have the focus gen on Tab reduced to 1 focus on deflect.

 

Why doesnt BM get 1 focus on deflect for lunar slash, and why cant BM parry with Tab?

[SereneGrace]

1 minute ago, Zooks said:

 

The easiest thing they could do is ignore the outcry on the forums and continue pushing out KR patches which is exactly what they're going to do. 

If that is the case I hope they do that soon because pvp really is a mess, hopefully the patches are out before the "player exodus".

[voodooblade]

14 minutes ago, SereneGrace said:

If that is the case I hope they do that soon because pvp really is a mess, hopefully the patches are out before the "player exodus".

 

There already has been an exodus. BnS messed up the biggest thing that kill or hurts an MMO. Well two things. 

 

1) bad launch.

 

First impression matters, Long server ques, people getting kicked due to instability, classes they felt were unbalanced. There are too many bugs to list, but this has driven a lot of people away. BnS was 2 million at its launch, now it's far less. Every server has taken a hit, and 3 are gonna be forced to merge with others as they are near empty.

 

2) ignoring their community.

 

An MMO's lifeline is the community. And as of now they have been terrible at communicating with it. This has in turn raised frustration and IMO has or will force more people to leave. People have little faith NCSoft will deliver, or Deliver in a reasonable time due to their silence and track record. 

 

And this all feeds into the biggest killer, word of mouth. On sites where the people vote like rotten tomatoes for example. The game is standing at 52-62% approval. And furthermore these issues are being discussed everywhere hence dismaying some curious people from playing. This is what hurt ArcheAge for so long. A bad launch and word of mouth. However unlike Arch Age which Fans could defend claiming he game was newish, BnS doesn't have that luxury. Meaning in turn everything is amplified. 

[Balmafra]

16 minutes ago, Kensho1996 said:

sorry I understand what you are saying BUT it is BS as well ..

 

generally speaking all I have learned is how to use the palm of my hand to mash all the buttons on the left side of my keyboard ..

 

IF i want to have a better time in the low end PvP I need to macro my attacks of course this I NOT going to help later on BUT nor is the fact that normally there is nothing I can do as the switches in battle are too fast to figure out .. THIS is in part due to the lag in the arena for me I will admit BUT the fact that you also have to contend with ani canceling which is impossible with even minor lag..

 

I have a 60 and 20 internet connection IN the NA and YET the lag is insane 

 

 

FYI I had less lag playing on the China servers

Okay, so that's your excuse, I get it. But what about the people complaining who do not have lag issues? The way I see it, most times it all comes down to the player and the choices they make. I used to be completely useless against LBD but I never complained. I simply asked for tips and what breaks spin, and guess what? I win far more often and understand the match up much better. Keep playing, look at your skill descriptions and watch what your opponent is doing. I bet the highest percentage of complainers simply don't pay attention.

[Kensho1996]

10 minutes ago, Balmafra said:

Okay, so that's your excuse, I get it. But what about the people complaining who do not have lag issues? The way I see it, most times it all comes down to the player and the choices they make. I used to be completely useless against LBD but I never complained. I simply asked for tips and what breaks spin, and guess what? I win far more often and understand the match up much better. Keep playing, look at your skill descriptions and watch what your opponent is doing. I bet the highest percentage of complainers simply don't pay attention.

IT could be the lag i have NO idea ..

 

I am trying but after being perma rooted or perma stunned for 6 rounds of hell every day I just get to the point where I throw up my hands and start looking for a different game..

 

PvE is ok if too easy ... PvP just avout who can put out the most stuns vs who has the most releases and when everything is going by in hyper speed due to ani canceling and lag .. meh

[SereneGrace]

41 minutes ago, voodooblade said:

 

There already has been an exodus. BnS messed up the biggest thing that kill or hurts an MMO. Well two things. 

 

1) bad launch.

 

First impression matters, Long server ques, people getting kicked due to instability, classes they felt were unbalanced. There are too many bugs to list, but this has driven a lot of people away. BnS was 2 million at its launch, now it's far less. Every server has taken a hit, and 3 are gonna be forced to merge with others as they are near empty.

 

2) ignoring their community.

 

An MMO's lifeline is the community. And as of now they have been terrible at communicating with it. This has in turn raised frustration and IMO has or will force more people to leave. People have little faith NCSoft will deliver, or Deliver in a reasonable time due to their silence and track record. 

 

And this all feeds into the biggest killer, word of mouth. On sites where the people vote like rotten tomatoes for example. The game is standing at 52-62% approval. And furthermore these issues are being discussed everywhere hence dismaying some curious people from playing. This is what hurt ArcheAge for so long. A bad launch and word of mouth. However unlike Arch Age which Fans could defend claiming he game was newish, BnS doesn't have that luxury. Meaning in turn everything is amplified. 

Thank you for sharing this information, I have no idea...

 

I remember when I started about a week after launch, the log in queue was under 10 mins and there were only 2 servers (Taywong and Om___). And 1-2 days later the log in queue was gone which was quite unusual to me. And they even added 5-10 extra servers recently didn't they? I was under the impression the game is growing but I guess not, what a shame.

At one point I considered maybe becoming a member just to show support (the member benefits are absolutely useless and not enticing at all), but the more I played and I keep discovering MAJOR flaws in the game it is very deterring. Not only that, I find myself actually getting bored now instead of having something to work towards in game.

[Balmafra]

34 minutes ago, Kensho1996 said:

IT could be the lag i have NO idea ..

 

I am trying but after being perma rooted or perma stunned for 6 rounds of hell every day I just get to the point where I throw up my hands and start looking for a different game..

 

PvE is ok if too easy ... PvP just avout who can put out the most stuns vs who has the most releases and when everything is going by in hyper speed due to ani canceling and lag .. meh

I understand.. but I play some fighting games at a high level, such as Tekken, Dead or Alive, Marvel vs Capcom 3, etc. and I can tell you this game has nothing on those as far as trying your patience; especially when it comes to cheap tactics or low-risk to high reward mechanics/mixups. Just gotta keep at it and let yourself grow. 

[Nightwatch]

I don't think alteration of MMR based on class is an effective solution to the problem. Your solution may spread out the ranks to other classes, however it will do it by devaluing victories and enhancing defeats. This is a issue as your suggestion drives those classes away from the arena without solving the problem. More over it cheapens the value of the rank you earned when you are a lower tiered class. With your suggestion a diamond summoner got there despite his class as the penalties will constantly try to drag them down. The reverse is also true, BM for example will have less value in their rank because the game tries to give it to them. Of course class balance get changed all the time, but your solution would likely create a negative feeling towards weaker classes who get a easier climb.

 

tl/dr: Your system doesn't solve the problem but rather tries to circumvent it. In doing so you will likely create a prejudice against weaker classes for favoritism in ranked PvP.

[SereneGrace]

2 hours ago, Nightwatch said:

I don't think alteration of MMR based on class is an effective solution to the problem. Your solution may spread out the ranks to other classes, however it will do it by devaluing victories and enhancing defeats. This is a issue as your suggestion drives those classes away from the arena without solving the problem. More over it cheapens the value of the rank you earned when you are a lower tiered class. With your suggestion a diamond summoner got there despite his class as the penalties will constantly try to drag them down. The reverse is also true, BM for example will have less value in their rank because the game tries to give it to them. Of course class balance get changed all the time, but your solution would likely create a negative feeling towards weaker classes who get a easier climb.

 

tl/dr: Your system doesn't solve the problem but rather tries to circumvent it. In doing so you will likely create a prejudice against weaker classes for favoritism in ranked PvP.

 

But see that is the whole point, it is the exactly the same philosophy as to why your MMR gain/loss is adjusted when you play against opponents with different MMR than you. It would only devalue victories and enhance defeat for classes that are strong at the moment, since they have an innate advantage of playing as a stronger class. I can see you understand my idea in the example you have given but not my point.

If this system is in place, since summoners have easier time with other classes they don't gain as much MMR when they win, however when lose they would lose more, as a result the overall distribution of summoners would be lower and the ranking would correlate more towards skill rather than playing as a strong class. Similar argument for the weaker class (note that this would work at any point when certain class is strong/weak, so it is unaffected by buffs/nerfs).

 

In your example, why do you think that (as of now) summoners don't deserved their rank to be drag down? And weaker class have theirs boosted up? Do you think a high ranking summoner is equal in skill compared to say a blademaster at the same rank? Shouldn't a player with a stronger/weaker class have his/her skill reflected better in terms of MMR?

 

(Note once again, besides the ranking, MMR comes in the form of rewards such as soulstone and season rewards. And it is very unfair that simply choosing a strong class, those rewards can be obtained easier simply because of class advantage)

[dragoaskani]

You are asking them to rebalance 3 year old content. Not happening. We will get balance with 50 and legendary skills.

[voodooblade]

Just now, dragoaskani said:

You are asking them to rebalance 3 year old content. Not happening. We will get balance with 50 and legendary skills.

Well if they don't rush then GG BnS. Because so far it's following nearly every trend to destroy an MMO, Only thing missing is P2W/Whaling.