Classes' power and rank distribution: the problem and solution

[SereneGrace]

If you are not aware already, there is a horrible disparity in regards class distribution in rank since the season started. In this thread I will show how bad it actually is, and how to fix this.

 

A little bit about myself before we get started: I play as a force master and started playing a month ago, I did not play in other servers before other than the NA server. I don't have much experience in pvp compare to other people but it is slightly disheartening when the class you have chosen is not as strong as others in pvp. This is actually not a problem, since a class will always be strong compare to the rest when they are all different (more on this below).

 

Ok lets get started...

 

The Problem

(To see some more relevant discussion and data other players have gathered, refer to this thread: Current class numbers in gold+ disgust me)

 

Currently there are much more summoners in gold or higher than any classes. The reason as to how this is happened can be narrowed down to the following: number of summoners in pvp rank and power of summoner (also possibly the exploit that is discovered recently, hopefully it's not a major contributor).

Just for the moment, assuming that 2 classes that are equal in power participate in rank matches. If there are 10 players, 5 players of each class, there is a chance that all 5 players of 1 class rank higher than the other class.  This can happen even if the classes are balanced perfectly. To see how this happens, have a list of number from 1-10 and order them randomly which is effectly what happens if the 2 classes are perfectly balanced.

Let's change the amount of players of each class a bit. Let's say class A has 7 players, class B has 3 and the classes are balanced still. The chances of class A having the top spots is much higher than class B even if they are balanced.

 

Now let's look at the numbers in game. The amount of summoners above gold is about twice as many as the next class, and consists of 30-40% total compared to all other classes. To people who thinks summoner is balanced and this only happens purely due to amount of summoner players, we can look at this in more detail. Lets say there are twice as many summoner as the a particular class and they are balanced, arrange their rank order randomly (same as the example above), then the result is we would see the same distribution we see now in game. But there is more to it if we see the exact same distribution even in HIGHER ranks (refer to page 7 data in the other thread). If the classes are more or less balanced, we should see an approximate EQUAL distribution at the high rank. If the same distribution exists even that point, it would take LOTS of summoners players to create that effect if summoner is assumed balanced. It is quite clear that this happens because of both factors.

 

The Solution

It should be clear that the solution is NOT simply nerf or buff classes, as I mentioned earlier it is impossible to balanced classes perfectly when they are very different. However in order to give other classes an equal footing (more or less) in rank, is to add an additional factor in gaining/losing MMR points depending on the class you are playing as. For example, summoner would earn less points when they win and lose more when they lose because of the amount of them at high rank.  What would happen is it would give a better representation of skill for all classes, meaning if you reach higher ranked as a stronger class it would be more respectable under this system, and the weaker classes would have a better chance of rising in rank. (Note, I'm assuming rank is matching players of similar MMR, and you already gain/lose more MMR based on the difference in MMR between players)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Vexe]

13 minutes ago, SereneGrace said:

The Solution

It should be clear that the solution is NOT simply nerf or buff classes, as I mentioned earlier it is impossible to balanced classes perfectly when they are very different. However in order to give other classes an equal footing (more or less) in rank, is to add an additional factor in gaining/losing MMR points depending on the class you are playing as. For example, summoner would earn less points when they win and lose more when they lose because of the amount of them at high rank.  What would happen is it would give a better representation of skill for all classes, meaning if you reach higher ranked as a stronger class it would be more respectable under this system, and the weaker classes would have a better chance of rising in rank. (Note, I'm assuming rank is matching players of similar MMR, and you already gain/lose more MMR based on the difference in MMR between players)
 

 

Frankly, that's a terrible idea. Simply unfair and fixes nothing.

What they need to do is look closely at each extreme and think of something that would put them into the same area as those in the middle.

 

This isn't easy, as you have to also consider the class popularity (Blade Dancers are common coz they're very fast-paced and simple, Summoners are common coz pets / they're a cute class amongst badasses) and you have to nerf/buff without hurting the balance and without ruining the class in PvE.

[Avalyn]

BM is so bad that in that kind of system you would be able to increase your rating just by afking

[Duniak]

Oh god, you are stupid. "Scummoners are OP, so let's just leave them alone and make them struggle for wins more".

 

NOONE HAS A PROBLEM WITH A NUMBER OF SCUMMONERS IN GOLD+, THEIR OPNESS IS THE ISSUE, NOONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE. Numbers are just REPRESENTATION and PROOF, that scummoners are indeed OP. Imperial tournament. 1st. Scummoner. 2nd. Scummoner. 3rd. Scummoner. 4th. Blade Dancer

 

#balance #esport

[Dwel]

A simpler solution is for them to offer the season rewards based on Class Rankings and not global ones (global rank can remain as pure rank). That way you'd be enticed to master your class and not just play the "meta". 

 

Unrepresented classes will see more interest and flavor of the month ones will become harder to just derp with and also get rewards.

[Vexe]

Again, lowering popularity fixes nothing. The class itself needs to be analyzed and a fair change needs to be made.

People who play competitively (PvP is the main charm of B&S) won't give a *cricket* about rewards they can't use in PvP. Even costumes might not mean as much to them as winning.

[Kuro Neko]

Well, I think summoner's are the"noob tube" of blade and soul and they do a pretty good job at it.

So rather than asking are summoners OP...Is this idea of a noob tube class acceptable in blade and soul?

The learning curve starts out very gentle and summoners sorta do start on a "higher power level" (dat cat). For that reason, they can achieve better results than other classes early on.

 

Yes..early on because players eventually do learn how to mutilate a cat and I'll bet it would look like witchcraft to a whole lot of forumers 

 

[Dwel]

14 minutes ago, Vexe said:

Again, lowering popularity fixes nothing. The class itself needs to be analyzed and a fair change needs to be made.

People who play competitively (PvP is the main charm of B&S) won't give a *cricket* about rewards they can't use in PvP. Even costumes might not mean as much to them as winning.

 

There is no "one" solution to the problem of game balance, but rather a wide array of changes that need to be made. In the context of an unbalanced meta, a single reward structure will always attract FOTM stacking. That's not to say that the game does not need to be balanced properly for 1v1, and even when perfectly balanced, class based reward structure is more appealing.

 

And @your comment on rewards, you'd be surprised how important rewards are for motivation. I'd harness a guess that the % of people who do not care for rewards is much lower than those who play for the rewards. Of course, what with zen beans, reaping wins with a summoner is probably pretty rewarding.

[SereneGrace]

35 minutes ago, Vexe said:

 

Frankly, that's a terrible idea. Simply unfair and fixes nothing.

What they need to do is look closely at each extreme and think of something that would put them into the same area as those in the middle.

 

Can you elaborate why that would be? In my opinion I find it unfair that you can reach higher rank simply because of class advantages and this can counteract it somewhat.

 

Also I have a problem with this not because of rank titles, but there are components of the game where higher rank gives you better rewards (eg number of soulstones). Which is significant when one class has much higher potential in obtaining them than other classes.

[SereneGrace]

4 minutes ago, Dwel said:

 

There is no "one" solution to the problem of game balance, but rather a wide array of changes that need to be made. In the context of an unbalanced meta, a single reward structure will always attract FOTM stacking. That's not to say that the game does not need to be balanced properly for 1v1, and even when perfectly balanced, class based reward structure is more appealing.

 

And @your comment on rewards, you'd be surprised how important rewards are for motivation. I'd harness a guess that the % of people who do not care for rewards is much lower than those who play for the rewards. Of course, what with zen beans, reaping wins with a summoner is probably pretty rewarding.

 

You took the words out of my mouth lol, ninja'd.

[NiiaZa]

 I think The thing that SMN always got an advantages compare to other class is the healing, the heal is too much really, heal from the cat, heal from skills heal from everything anything they do. Their healing may go over 50% hp pool if they got full combo on other class.

 

Im fine with the cat or SMN dps cuz it is a part of the summoner already. Cat have CC other class have CC too, Summoner have dps on full combo so do other classes have dps on full combo too but the healing is just too much.

[FMP]

it's balanced, you just suck

[NiiaZa]

Just now, FMP said:

it's balanced, you just suck

Shut your mouth if u dont know anything about BnS

[Duniak]

47 minutes ago, SereneGrace said:

 

Can you elaborate why that would be? In my opinion I find it unfair that you can reach higher rank simply because of class advantages and this can counteract it somewhat.

 

Please, stop writing. Just stop. You care about RANK and not about CLASS ADVANTAGES? The problem is not RANK, but CLASS ADVANTAGES, so your shitty idea how to counteract RANK is unneeded, noone gives a crap, it wouldn't solve anything, just lower few scummoners' ranking. But ranking isn't an issue. You don't get ranking when you lose. So it won't be any easier when scummoners get less MMR. They'll just faceroll like they do now, it'll stay the same, they'll just play few matches more and wreck anyone that dares to oppose them. Easy.

[SereneGrace]

2 hours ago, Duniak said:

 

Please, stop writing. Just stop. You care about RANK and not about CLASS ADVANTAGES? The problem is not RANK, but CLASS ADVANTAGES, so your shitty idea how to counteract RANK is unneeded, noone gives a crap, it wouldn't solve anything, just lower few scummoners' ranking. But ranking isn't an issue. You don't get ranking when you lose. So it won't be any easier when scummoners get less MMR. They'll just faceroll like they do now, it'll stay the same, they'll just play few matches more and wreck anyone that dares to oppose them. Easy.

I would appreciate it if you refrain from personal attacks and read thorough again my posts as well as other people responses, I have a feeling you don't get what the idea is about nor why it is needed. It's quite interesting how you cut out my 2nd half of my post where I literally said rank title is the not as important as the other incentives of pvp (as the poster Dwel mentioned).

 

Class advantage is impossible to be balanced, that is a fact for a game with classes that are different. There will always be a class that is the best and one that is the worst, there is no way around that. My idea of stronger class gaining less mmr when winning and lose more when losing is for the purpose of giving other weaker classes better chances to climb up the ladder. Also remember that the stronger class (summoner in your example) has to fight against OTHER summoners as well. While they might "faceroll" other classes, if this additional factor is in place then they don't get as much MMR against other classes, when they lose against other summoners it would set them back. As a result a summoner with high rank actually means he is good at summoner, not because purely of class advantages.

 

This additional factor can be transferred later where different classes are stronger in different patch.

[Duniak]

Just now, SereneGrace said:

I would appreciate it if you refrain from personal attacks and read thorough again my posts as well as other people responses, I have a feeling you don't get what the idea is about nor why it is needed. It's quite interesting how you cut out my 2nd half of my post where I literally said rank title is the not as important as the other incentives of pvp (as the poster Dwel mentioned).

 

Class advantage is impossible to be balanced, that is a fact for a game with classes that are different. There will always be a class that is the best and one that is the worst, there is no way around that. My idea of stronger class gaining less mmr when winning and lose more when losing is for the purpose of giving other weaker classes better chances to climb up the ladder. Also remember that the stronger class (summoner in your example) has to fight against OTHER summoners as well. While they might "faceroll" other classes, if this additional factor is in place then they don't get as much MMR against other classes, when they lose against other summoners it would set them back. As a result a summoner with high rank actually means he is good at summoner, not because purely of class advantages.

 

This additional factor can be transferred later where different classes are stronger in different patch.

 

1. Nah, calling someone mentally inferior mentally inferior is okay. Your rant is pointless and doesn't bring anything to the table, so let's just analyze solution, which should reflect your viewpoint.

 

however in order to give other classes an equal footing (more or less) in rank, is to add an additional factor in gaining/losing MMR points depending on the class you are playing as. For example, summoner would earn less points when they win and lose more when they lose because of the amount of them at high rank.  What would happen is it would give a better representation of skill for all classes

 

See? MMR is not important, it'd only fix scummoners' pride. It'd also result in MASSIVE influx of gold scummoners, that can get MMR easily in silver, but can't get higher because of superior people with different classes. It'd create a massive wall. One that I notice on my FM. I like playing against Scummoners, but at roughly 1550 I got paired with 8 in a row trying to get my alt to gold for 30 soulstones. Geez, anyone else with any other class (safe for Destro) would instantly get curbstomped back to bronze.

 

2. As for "cutting the other half of your post". Even more irrelevant. Seriously, rank doesn't matter, their OPness does. Yeah, case could be made I had a hard time getting this gold on FM and scummoners can get money more easily, but it's not the issue here. It wouldn't solve anything, Use your brain, for christ's sake. It'd just bring more scummoners to low gold rank creating massive wall that only Destros, FM and KFMs could jump over. Idiotic idea, idiotic reasoning, idiotic reason. Scummoners being lower in rank wouldn't make people go "Oh, okay, I can get completely beaten around by retarded 12 year old that jerks off to his small 6 year old girl beating 3m muscle freak with 4m axe. I mean, he gets less MMR, so it's all peachy. I'll also lose less!"

 

3. It's not about making every class the same, it's about making all classes all about skill and counterplay. You currently don't have counterplay for scummoners. FMs can just bomb scummoners (cat and 10sec range immunity on 18sec cooldown doesn't help tho), Destros can just 1EQ them. Not really a matter of skill. Balance is when similarly skilled opponents have SIMILAR chances of winning. Guildmate sent me a video of some streamer of w/e playing scummoner. Camera was on his keyboard. He was spamming all skill keys and moving mouse while standing in the middle. I think he used trinket once. He won 2:0. In high silver IIRC?

 

[SereneGrace]

But in this game, MMR is important, it is not just for show, it ties into rewards such as obtaining amount of soulstones (increases by rank) and season rewards. And if you haven't realized by now, I have made absolutely no attempt in suggesting balance the classes in terms of their skillset (I can't anyways because I'm not an expert in it), since there will always be a strong class and it so that happens it's summoners this time around. If you would like to discuss about how to counter or make changes to summoners I'm sure there are other threads (such as the one I references in first post) for that.

[Yongnian]

10 minutes ago, Duniak said:

Guildmate sent me a video of some streamer of w/e playing scummoner. Camera was on his keyboard. He was spamming all skill keys and moving mouse while standing in the middle. I think he used trinket once. He won 2:0. In high silver IIRC?

 

 

Silver is trash tier, and low gold is also probably trash tier, considering I've hit it (and I'm trash).  I've had matches where the opponent never figures out how to SS out of my freeze in silver.

[Zooks]

So you want to give classes handicaps. lmao.... 

Our developers can't change a damn thing when it comes to actual in-game content. People expecting balance patches are going to be disappointed. Next time we see a balance patch will be when they get the next KR patch localized. 

[Roxefeller]

8 hours ago, Duniak said:

Oh god, you are stupid. "Scummoners are OP, so let's just leave them alone and make them struggle for wins more".

 

NOONE HAS A PROBLEM WITH A NUMBER OF SCUMMONERS IN GOLD+, THEIR OPNESS IS THE ISSUE, NOONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE. Numbers are just REPRESENTATION and PROOF, that scummoners are indeed OP. Imperial tournament. 1st. Scummoner. 2nd. Scummoner. 3rd. Scummoner. 4th. Blade Dancer

 

#balance #esport

#idiot #summonersarenotopyoujustdontknowhowtohandlethem #imakfmsonoimnotbiasedtowardsummoners

7 hours ago, NiiaZa said:

Shut your mouth if u dont know anything about BnS

Actually to enlighten you, the game is quite balanced as it is. In case you didn't know, the game is balanced based on the performance of top tier players in tournaments. The game is NOT balanced based on low tier players or anyone for that matter whining on the forums about balance. As it is and as it will be in future patches, top tier players are able to beat any other class with any class they choose. Take time to practice and truly learn every tool your class brings to the table and learn how to counter classes you're struggling to beat (SPAR WITH THEM).

[Kensho1996]

I for one am so tired of getting smoked by some tiny Lyn either BD or summoner .. they just spam the same buttons and YOU really don't have ANY chance as a KFM..

 

I go in for my 3 daily losses is all i do and I am at this time 17 and 1 ..

 

THERE is no time to figure out how to combat these classes as their attacks are nothing other than spam with the ani cancelling .. the ani canceling messes things up as the time required to preform move is supposed to equate to the time required to use it .. 

 

I think the PvP is trash in this game and THEN you add lag .. these tiny little players with op classes with so many abilities that can't be broken makes the PvP absolute crap.. 

[NiiaZa]

42 minutes ago, Roxefeller said:

 

Lets me make this clearly to you summoner boy (im sure you are 100% summoner player). Game is balance around lv 50 contest with every classes have all their legendary skills like when assassin get their decoy which give them 2s immunity or BM get their block which heal them and give shield or KFM with more option skills etc etc...... We are not talking about future patch so plz dont and stop talking about future patch as whos know when it will come??

 

Right now im not saying that this game is balance or im not either saying its unbalance at all. Some class have some skill that will give them to much advantages vs other class and thats why it will make SMN in this patch really strong

 

Example SMN vs Assassin, SMN have 1 skill, only 1 skill which is hell short CD (18s) and they can freely dps Sins for the whole 5s-10s without scary that they going back into stealth anymore. Sins without stealth = trash = dead. So look a while at assassin skills do they have any skills that can block SMN healing nope but the game dont have any skills like that which will make a SMN so strong right now compare to some class that does not have much healing like assassin or BM  (stop talking about practice plzz... i have all these 2 class maxed)

 

So in the end i want to ask you something did u really read my comment above?? lol... i didnt say anything about balance or unbalance thing. i was talking about only for the summoner healing!!! OM Godnesss when the hell i was talking about unbalance or balance thing?????????

 

[Duniak]

40 minutes ago, Roxefeller said:

#idiot #summonersarenotopyoujustdontknowhowtohandlethem #imakfmsonoimnotbiasedtowardsummoners

 

Actually to enlighten you, the game is quite balanced as it is. In case you didn't know, the game is balanced based on the performance of top tier players in tournaments. The game is NOT balanced based on low tier players or anyone for that matter whining on the forums about balance. As it is and as it will be in future patches, top tier players are able to beat any other class with any class they choose. Take time to practice and truly learn every tool your class brings to the table and learn how to counter classes you're struggling to beat (SPAR WITH THEM).

 If you weren't in silver you'd have known KFM is Summoner's counter. Not as good as FM or Destro, but KFM is favoured.

 

Okay, summoners are not OP, F11 lies. Last Imperial tournament, like 2 days ago? 1st place: Scummoner. 2nd place: Scummoner 3rd place: Scummoner 4th place: Blade Cancer. There goes your balance. Or are those players silvers? Stfu if you don't know shit about meta and high level pvp. ^^

[Roxefeller]

9 minutes ago, NiiaZa said:

Lets me make this clearly to you summoner boy (im sure you are 100% summoner player). Game is balance around lv 50 contest with every classes have all their legendary skills like when assassin get their decoy which give them 2s immunity or BM get their block which heal them and give shield or KFM with more option skills etc etc...... We are not talking about future patch so plz dont and stop talking about future patch as whos know when it will come??

 

Right now im not saying that this game is balance or im not either saying its unbalance at all. Some class have some skill that will give them to much advantages vs other class and thats why it will make SMN in this patch really strong

 

Example SMN vs Assassin, SMN have 1 skill, only 1 skill which is hell short CD (18s) and they can freely dps Sins for the whole 5s-10s without scary that they going back into stealth anymore. Sins without stealth = trash = dead. So look a while at assassin skills do they have any skills that can block SMN healing nope but the game dont have any skills like that which will make a SMN so strong right now compare to some class that these not have much healing like assassin or BM  (stop talking about practice plzz... i have all these 2 class maxed)

 

So in the end i want to ask you something did u really read my comment above?? lol... i didnt say anything about balance or unbalance thing. i was talking about only for the summoner healing!!! OM Godnesss when the hell i was talking about unbalance or balance thing?????????

 

I guess you don't bother reading or your brain just can't process reading something as simple as #imakfmsoimnotbiasedtowardsummoner

I'm a KFM and only a KFM. Game is balanced as it is now. Future patches only release more tools for each class to catch up to some other classes in terms of tools in their skillset.

Try reading your post back to yourself. You state that you're not talking about future patches, but early on in your post your argument rests on the game being balanced around lvl50 content(future patch).

 

Also, if you were even the least bit intelligent you would notice that I quoted your post "Shut your mouth if u don't know anything about BnS." which was in response to FMP's post, "it's balanced you just suck"

This is indirectly talking about balanced/unbalanced

 

 

[Balmafra]

This thread = played a few games in ranked and gave up. Play a couple hundred then talk. You'll be surprised how quickly you understand pvp and what/what not to do and how to do your matchups.