The Hate for Summoner

[Pacma]

On 2/13/2016 at 3:32 PM, Waynedetta said:

The only thing i consider op about him is the healing.

Iam playing lbm and summoner.

As Lynblademaster you cant outdmg him. The heals are to strong combined with the stalltechniques the class has. This is why hes countered so hard by destro and kfm, because those bascially 100-0 him, and if they cant he will just heal up. The cat heals for 30% in 18 seconds while it has 8seconds invulnarable. The summoner can leech 20% of the hp every 24 seconds.

And if you play against summoner you have to do a lot of things right, dealing dmg to both, roll out of ALL KD if you dont cat sit on your face + sunflower takes tons of hp away and yea, no pressure means hes healing up again.... You have to be carefull while you grap him or the cat will knock you down. You are forced to take specific less dmg air combos or the cat will knock you down. You are not allowed to hit dandelion or he wil reset cds and stall more till heals up. Cat can be E'ed midair when its thrown with X. Targeting system will screw you when he sits on his unconsious pet.

we have bad heals, one is bugged atm, one takes health from cat, and other requires ranged abiligies to get good heal

[Rimgar]

Geraton i just wanted to say that i appreciate the time and effort you put into this thread.im commenting from my phone(so please excuse my typo-es).here goes : i find it very frustrating to face a summoner as sin,im not claiming to be a prodigy or w/e but it really gets to me to be so easily/effortlesly defeated every single time.ive only won vs a sm twice and they were clearly horrible.that makes me feel even worse.

 

Im sorry to keep this topic open,maybe you wanted it to fade after all these days of arguing back and forth,but i felt like i had to say my part.Ill probably never meet you in-game but i think you are a level-headed player,no hate,just peace. 

Rimgar,Ebon Hall EU

 

Edit: just noticed my post make little sense,sorry about that,i really tried XD

[Geraton]

1 hour ago, Rimgar said:

Geraton i just wanted to say that i appreciate the time and effort you put into this thread.im commenting from my phone(so please excuse my typo-es).here goes : i find it very frustrating to face a summoner as sin,im not claiming to be a prodigy or w/e but it really gets to me to be so easily/effortlesly defeated every single time.ive only won vs a sm twice and they were clearly horrible.that makes me feel even worse.

 

Im sorry to keep this topic open,maybe you wanted it to fade after all these days of arguing back and forth,but i felt like i had to say my part.Ill probably never meet you in-game but i think you are a level-headed player,no hate,just peace. 

Rimgar,Ebon Hall EU

 

Edit: just noticed my post make little sense,sorry about that,i really tried XD

 

Thank you my friend, these were actually the kindest words I got here :D even though I guess it wasnt supposed to be kind :x  Do not worry, I was not planning to leave this topic fade away that easily :) I made this topic to discuss the situation about this class (pros, cons, hate, positive/ negative reactions, anything lol) in hope that maybe one day summoners could be finally playable without the mark *broken class*.  

Lol I just realized this topic is probably in wrong section :D :D anyway...

 

I understand you have a problems playing against summoners, and I said many times already I admit they are a bit above other classes. From my perspective of summoner, assassins always introduced bigger threat to me in owpvp than arena :x so yea, summoner feels like a dominant class atm.

 

On the other side, theres lots of people who complain about perma stealth and no chance to defeat assassin :x which means this is an infinite chain between classes, where one dominates the others (or simply said, counter-class system). I thought this game from all other mmos  is specially made to teach you being counter-player instead of counter-class, but as it seems at the moment, the game really needs the incoming content as fast as possible, I can only hope at least a slight piece of these problems will be solved that day :) 

 

 

[Rimgar]

It was supposed to be as mild as possible,didn't mean to insult or provoke in any way.just my experience so far.

 

In open world i rarely try to kill enemy players,regardless of class,just trying to throw in some cc or set up kills with displacement(tab).i mean,people just wanna get their soulstones,no need for me to be an a-hole.

 

Cheers!

[Geraton]

Hehe no problem here :D Im glad for your input ;) Any post is welcome here to discuss.

Well, about open world pvp the same goes for me :D I wasnt even used to initiate the first attack, not even saying about doing the faction quest which requires you to kill 9 players just not to be basterd, but then I changed my mind :x I mean, I was okay if anybody killed me in faction area because its supposed to be like that, and especially if the quest says so. But when 3 or more people came to kill me and after they did so, they always told me something like "lol you are a shame of summoner class" .... I actually felt entertained :D 

But yea, some people just cannot afford to leave their egos calmed :x 

[Michieltjuhh]

I played BM. On that character I'm hovering between 1700 and 1800 in 1v1 and got platinum in Tag Match. I'm the only BM I ever meet since nobody plays the class anymore.

I got sick of being stuck due to what I perceived as class imbalance (and the 200+ latency doesn't help melee classes, EU servers ftl), so I rerolled a Summoner. I got 1910 in 1v1 in less than 100 matches and in Tag Match it took me less than 60 matches to get 1931, which are the ratings I have right now on that character. I never bothered looking up any "guide" on how to play it. I just leveled it to 45, made my own talent spec, entered arena, and beat pretty much everything with no effort until 1800 at which it required slightly more effort but still wasn't challenging.

Summoner is broken for three reasons.
-The healing is incredibly powerful and easy to pull off. It's fruitless to try kill a Summoner without a burst combo.
-They do the exact same thing as other classes but with half the abilities. Summoner is far easier to play than Blade Master with the same tradeoff if done "well". My third point, however, is something a Blade Master can't do and most other classes can't either.
-The cooldown on the Grapple is, without a doubt, broken. 18 seconds. All classes except the one other class I consider broken by design which is Blade Dancer (KFM/Destro are broken due to anicancelling) have only one way of escaping this every 36! seconds. So you have an 18 second window of just auto-winning the match against every class that isn't a Blade Dancer or another Summoner since the cat can CC your cat during the pin. This is the primary reason I think Summoner is broken right now. Though them being THIS easy to play is just a flaw in the game.

That said, I think Blade Dancers are broken too. But that might just be Blade Master bias, since they're superior to me as BM in every aspect right now (same CC, far stronger defensive moves, higher damage, better focus recovery, easier to play).

[Waynedetta]

On 20.2.2016 at 7:45 PM, Nonameexist said:

10 hours ago, Pacma said:

we have bad heals, one is bugged atm, one takes health from cat, and other requires ranged abiligies to get good heal

I agree.cat shouldnt be able to touch you at all when you are performing aerial combos.i agree totally.in fact you can shoot in the air the summ and when he lands he must be with 50-70%(if use correctly)life.no major ascape for summ just major bang bang style for you.i totally agree. :)

20%Hp from cat every 24 seconds

Cat heals for 20% hp every 18 seconds. If Hammer is skilled 1 Point its another 10% every 18 seconds. If q is used correctly its another 2% for every hit it recieves every 12 for 8 seconds.

Flower heal on single target is not bugged it works as intended.

20% Heal for teammates every tag in.

 

How is that bad?

[Kure]

Doom n Bloom cat heal is cancelled out if summoner is siphoning it off to himself. I wouldn't be surprised if more people chose the daze option for hammer, which removes the 10% heal. However, cat is still easily kept healthy since you don't need to siphon health all the time, can cancel out 90% damage at almost any time you wish, and if things really get desperate there's huzzah. For summoner itself, there's mainly leeching off the cat. The others aren't terribly noticeable unless you convince a FM to burst you in petals. Still, the small stuff adds up. Summoner is closest thing the game has to a healing class.

 

Although for cat still doing damage when sum is CCd... summoner really does have an issue with cc escapes. The cat is kind of the balance to that.

[Hacin]

The main problem in this game is that the range clases have more basic damage of the skills then the mele clases , this is absurd is the contrary of how it supose to by , the range clases atak from distance witch means the first to hit or atak will by a summoner or an FM ,why the hell they damage is so hight ,iven in arena pvp ,where it is supose to by iven ?! Please revisit the amount of damage of the majority of their skills .And why the hell the 2 hibrid classes only 2 there are for now are so instable is it realy hard to see and fix that? Blade dancer and summoner , 1 combo and you almost dead , how can you do open faction pvp like that ?

[Destinykraze]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80uc3pR_vgA

1 week before all hell breaks loose. summoner, BD op? think again. Slightly NERFed. So what.

[Vexe]

10 minutes ago, Hacin said:

The main problem in this game is that the range clases have more basic damage of the skills then the mele clases , this is absurd is the contrary of how it supose to by , the range clases atak from distance witch means the first to hit or atak will by a summoner or an FM ,why the hell they damage is so hight ,iven in arena pvp ,where it is supose to by iven ?! Please revisit the amount of damage of the majority of their skills .And why the hell the 2 hibrid classes only 2 there are for now are so instable is it realy hard to see and fix that? Blade dancer and summoner , 1 combo and you almost dead , how can you do open faction pvp like that ?

 

Yeah, summoner damage is currently a bit too high for their survivability. As for Force Masters, the real problem with them is the crazy freeze-stunlocking combined with their high damage. Not sure how to deal with it yet, maybe I'm missing something.

 

However, both ranged classes sacrifice their survivability for it. Catch them offguard in a stunlock and they're screwed.

 

By the way, Summoners are not hybrids and they can not kill you in a combo (they have no combos and if you get killed that quickly by a summoner you suck).

[Vexe]

6 minutes ago, Destinykraze said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80uc3pR_vgA

1 week before all hell breaks loose. summoner, BD op? think again. Slightly NERFed. So what.

 

Is that video pre-nerf?

As for "so what", from what I heard they lose a ton of their survivability and drop from overpowered to average. So that.

[Hacin]

9 minutes ago, Vexe said:

 

Yeah, summoner damage is currently a bit too high for their survivability. As for Force Masters, the real problem with them is the crazy freeze-stunlocking combined with their high damage. Not sure how to deal with it yet, maybe I'm missing something.

 

However, both ranged classes sacrifice their survivability for it. Catch them offguard in a stunlock and they're screwed.

 

By the way, Summoners are not hybrids and they can not stunlock you in a combo (they have no combos and if you get killed that quickly by a summoner you suck).

Tey survability you say ? both have skills that makes you unable to rach the isn't that enof ?And fm have a skill that if used well is a bloking skill almost ,ice shields fizing them selfs ,fress and heal all that staff isn't it protections ?

[Hacin]

26 minutes ago, Vexe said:

 

Yeah, summoner damage is currently a bit too high for their survivability. As for Force Masters, the real problem with them is the crazy freeze-stunlocking combined with their high damage. Not sure how to deal with it yet, maybe I'm missing something.

 

However, both ranged classes sacrifice their survivability for it. Catch them offguard in a stunlock and they're screwed.

 

By the way, Summoners are not hybrids and they can not kill you in a combo (they have no combos and if you get killed that quickly by a summoner you suck).

i played all clases up to 45 i speek from expirience not just to speek 

[Geraton]

Nice discussion guys ;) I would put some words between the lines here

I find people's problems not about classes being unbalanced, but everyone being overwhelmed by a different class. The most of the people feel overwhelmed by summoner because of its cat assistant, which means 2v1 makes them unable to focus on their target properly and so they fail. Then, another group of people, who find themselves being overwhelmed by destroyers (spin/grab obviously), another group just cant beat assassins because they forget all their strategies when seeing stealth used 2 times in a row :( . I mean, this is purely my hypothesis, but every day I find it more real, because there are people who can beat any class and some people who just scream that 6/7 classes is op and their class is broken. Yes I cant compare BM with summoner, because they are in absolute contrast  in the current patch. But then again, another summoner class is going out in 2 weeks and we all know how op is this class supposed to be. If my theory of overwhelm is correct, we can expect toooons of complaints :x And so it means Im kinda right :D 

 

No offense, no hating, no defending of certain classes from my side, just an opinion. (To make sure I wont recieve any mega-hateful replies) :x

[Vexe]

Actually, we don't know how strong Warlocks will be.

This is afaik the first time they go live with a lv45+5 level cap and we're getting the nerfed Warlocks (February patch nerfed them)

 

March patch also promises more class balancing, so even summoners / blade dancers might suffer from it.

[Geraton]

Well, to be honest, the game will never be really balanced for all the classes and people obviously know this but they are afraid to accept it :) Simply said :x sorry for negativity but thats how I see it atm. :)

[Vanquishz]

Summoner are so fu,king op that they can fight very well even with his die cat. its the most umbalanced class ever in whatever mmorpg game, shame. 

[Kure]

Yeah... gonna have to pass on that. Play a few more MMOs. I guarantee you'll find worst balancing out there. As for summoner without a cat, it loses half it's skills including most of it's cc and chief means of healing. 

[Geraton]

1 hour ago, Kure said:

Yeah... gonna have to pass on that. Play a few more MMOs. I guarantee you'll find worst balancing out there. As for summoner without a cat, it loses half it's skills including most of it's cc and chief means of healing. 

 

Kure, first I have to say that I agree with you about all the summon classes being somehow more op than other classes in most of mmorpgs.

Secondly, I wanna really thank you for posting in my topic, because every single reply you put here is reasonable and makes sense. So thank you very much for your effort and your time being invested into this topic ;)

I can only agree with the thing you said above, the summoner cannot deal with other classes once his familiar is dead. It has most of the cc abilities. And yea, maybe thats the reason why people often say that cat > summoner itself :(

[Nonameexist]

On 2/21/2016 at 9:22 PM, Kaal said:

On 2/21/2016 at 9:22 PM, Kaal said:

Why is it that their cat can launch you to air or get u grappled with no reversal options and get u pew pewed by the Summoner for half your hp, while the same can't be done to the summoner? Why the *cricket* do they have aerial escape in a form of cat and we, every other class, get nothing?

 

Summoners have more than enough escapes, immunities, ccs, heals and ways to abuse targetting so why on top of all that they have aerial escape and heal? This is bullshit and you know it.

 

Kaal every class has major escapes and except summ u got stuns e.t.c

im sry but i have 1 question,if u can answer me that plz.

i see 70% ppl complained abut summ that is OP yes?and i see a 30% that they say its so easy to beat summ.

the 70% is unbalanced and other 30 is OP?or the 70% dont know how to play summ and other 30% knows?

it is weird when i see an assasin sais"oh plz nerf summ its OP bla bla bla" and in the next line another sais"i can beat summ so easy that im not even trying"(sin is just an example)

i belive they have the same skill pages but not the same "skills"as a players :)

again sry if i make mistakes my english is bad i know it :P

[Geraton]

12 hours ago, Nonameexist said:

Kaal every class has major escapes and except summ u got stuns e.t.c

im sry but i have 1 question,if u can answer me that plz.

i see 70% ppl complained abut summ that is OP yes?and i see a 30% that they say its so easy to beat summ.

the 70% is unbalanced and other 30 is OP?or the 70% dont know how to play summ and other 30% knows?

it is weird when i see an assasin sais"oh plz nerf summ its OP bla bla bla" and in the next line another sais"i can beat summ so easy that im not even trying"(sin is just an example)

i belive they have the same skill pages but not the same "skills"as a players :)

again sry if i make mistakes my english is bad i know it :P

 

 

Yea this is the thing Im always thinking about, when seeing people complain about the damage summoner has. And Im wondering if they compare summoners defensive abilities the same way as they do compare its damage with other classes. Summoner has 1 ultimate cc escape skill usable every 36 sec and once burned, it can be cc-ed to death. On the other side, when fighting against class like destroyer, Im nearly unable to cc him because it has sooo many escapes. 

 

Do not let fool yourselves guys, you think summoner has an easy job in arena but I have to be pretty sure I do not waste my only escape skill, since there are videos like the kfm guy going around internet, where he does duel like 100-0 in one combo. 

 

Also Im pretty sure that most of the time these complaints originate from the people at rank lower than 1800 or so, because thats the border between more experienced people and less experienced people ( Im not saying newbs because some people suffer even though they are not new to this game). Once you go higher, theres mass of people who know how to deal with each class, so its obvious you will have harder times in there :x 

 

[AxeWife]

On 15/02/2016 at 9:55 PM, beowolf said:

Great post, and good effort.  Also pointless.  2 errors.

 

One, you say you're a summoner.  Never do that.  You're trying to initiate a legit logical argument.  That ain't gonna happen with the saltiness of other classes (which are unwarranted unless you are BM).  For the record, I'm an 1800 summoner main...with a 2k FM alt.  

 

Two, you concluded that the big issue is the summoner's mechanics.  Wrong.  They don't want mechanics.  Most players don't even want parity or PVP balance.  They just want summoners deleted, or in League terms, Riot'd until they're irrelevant.  They want their BM Kirito or their Ass Snake or whatever to be winners.  Summoners aren't popular, and they difficult initial challenges for the most popular classes (BM and Ass/KFM afterwards iirc).  Destroyers, the early counter to summoners, are also historically underrepresented.  

Summoners have a high skill floor, and a button mashing sum will beat a button mashing Ass/BM.  Statistically, the most popular classes are Ass/BM, and the most likely skill level of a hater is "lower than button mashing."  Even in gold or plat, I see people stop mashing... just to directly attack my curled cat or my Ice Sheath.  And with hundreds of summoner games and less than 50 FM games, I might be an oddity, but summoners have huge issues in higher elos.

 

Just do some research.  Go to BNStree.  Go look for the amount of summoner CCs, escapes, and track their cooldowns and focus cost.  Then look at a FM or LBD.  Then look at a Dest/LBD counter mechanics and its comparative cooldown and focus cost.  And then look at an Assassin's stealth mechanic and theorize its own cost and availability.  Summoners fall quite short especially compared to my FM.  I don't know if NC will balance around high level or low level, or even balance at all.  But good luck trying to get respect from losers, no matter what class you play.

You!

You are smart.

You bring belief in humanity and intelligence back.

Thank you.

[Vexe]

19 hours ago, Vanquishz said:

Summoner are so fu,king op that they can fight very well even with his die cat. its the most umbalanced class ever in whatever mmorpg game, shame. 

 

lol.

Once the cat is dead, summoners will be baiting you into dandelion to quickly run into the opposite corner and use Wish (revive).

Why? Because without the cat we're useless in PvP. We need its CC and defense skills or we get stunlocked.

[Vanquishz]

2 minutes ago, Vexe said:

 

lol.

Once the cat is dead, summoners will be baiting you into dandelion to quickly run into the opposite corner and use Wish (revive).

Why? Because without the cat we're useless in PvP. We need its CC and defense skills or we get stunlocked.

I dont think so, even without the cat, you have cc and damage, stealt (ridiculous), this is unfair, it should be if cat die sum should die too. fk bullshit.