Synusoidal

On the Topic of RNG

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This isn't going to be a "Waaah! I hate RNG!" post. I'm perfectly aware of the element of randomness, what random means, how it can be fun, and how it is almost a fundamental building block of any game, let alone MMOs.

 

But the way RNG is implemented in this game is possibly the worst I've seen. And this game is full of it. As much as I love this this game, I'm almost about to completely give up on trying to get anything shiny for myself.

 

If you have to grind a boss for days and days, non-stop, with no sense of accomplishment towards your goal what so ever, it gets frustrating and annoying. It doesn't make the reward feel any more special. Instead of me going "Yay! Finally! I got the thing I wanted!", I just go "***'ing finally. ****! I just wasted 2 days of gameplay on this piece of ****!"

 

The easiest fix to RNG that is so rampant in this game and is frustrating so many players is to give people a sense of reward when they invest some time towards that thing they want. Be it an outfit, that soul shield, whatever. Here are some ways you can make RNG be less frustrating to your players:

 

1. The Lazy Way: Every time the person invests X amount of time and doesn't get the thing they want due to RNG, increase the chance of success slightly the next time they decide to invest time in it.

2. The Common Way: Every time the person invests X amount of time and doesn't get the thing they want due to RNG, give them some tokens. Then, offer that thing they want as something they can just buy if they have enough of those tokens.

3. The Fun Way: Provide multiple ways for getting that thing they want, each with different levels of difficulty and risk and different chances of success in combination with the methods above.

 

Currently, if I want the Stinger outfit, I have one option: I have to sit there and kill Pinchy. Then spin a wheel. Did I get the outfit? No? Repeat. Over and over and over and over and over again with absolutely no sense of accomplishment at each step. Yes, I realize I can buy essences on the market. Fine. Ok.

 

So now I want the Temptress outfit from Nightshade Harbor. How do I get it? I have to go in and wait until A. Scarlet Widow and Cobalt Widow spawn, and B. A group shows up so that we can safely kill them. Every 15-20 minutes. Then a box drops. I open the box. Did I get the outfit exchange ticket? No? Repeat! Over and over and over and over and over again with absolutely no sense of accomplishment at each step. And with this one, I can't go to the market.

 

Can somebody explain to me where is the "fun" in this? I thought games were supposed to be fun.

 

This is ridiculous. If this is your definition of "westernization", I'm not surprised the localization of the game's text is at the state it is now.

Edited by Synusoidal

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Trinket   

I love getting 6 healing tonics from my daily boxes!

 

Every. Day.

 

Yes, this game does RNG pretty poorly. There's an element of finding items that is entertaining in PvE. You don't expect to have amazing drops from every mob you kill, but when all I get from mobs largely comes in the form of garbage - holy hell.

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You can buy essences from almost any instance if you don't want to grind it out. We're a month into the game, you don't need every item the week it comes out, or even the month it does. If you had all your gear and all the cosmetics you want from the start, what would you have to look forward to? RNG isn't always a fun time gate, but it keeps you playing.
.

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12 minutes ago, Prototypemind said:

You can buy essences from almost any instance if you don't want to grind it out. We're a month into the game, you don't need every item the week it comes out, or even the month it does. If you had all your gear and all the cosmetics you want from the start, what would you have to look forward to? RNG isn't always a fun time gate, but it keeps you playing.
.

 

You're missing the point I'm trying to make though. It's not that I expect to get every item in the game by the first month.

 

Proper game design allows the player to still feel rewarded even after they failed in getting the thing they wanted. Incremental progress and player choice is usually used to create this effect.

 

Let's say there is some item X that I want. If the system is pure RNG (which is the case right now), it means I have some chance of getting it every time I do task Y. Let's say each try takes 1 hour to complete. This means for some people it make take 1 hour to get X, while some may never ever get X. Let's assume that on average, players get X after 100 tries (100 hours).

 

Now, let's add something else: Let's say there is a Special Token. You can also get X by spending 200 of these tokens. Each attempt at task Y gives you 1 or 2 Special Tokens. This means that it would take anywhere between 100 and 200 attempts to get 200 tokens, and then item X.

 

Both of these take around the same time to get the item. The difference is, every time I get 1 Special Token, I think to myself "Hey, at least if I keep this up, EVENTUALLY I'll get it for sure."

 

That mentality is what differentiates frustrating RNG from fun RNG. And frustrating RNG makes players quit the game, while fun RNG keeps them playing, which seems to be the goal here.

 

Edited by Synusoidal

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Technically if you play Monopoly or Words With Friends or whatever else you might never win. That's part of playing games, you don't always get everything you want. If it's a single player, sure, but I accept in playing an MMO or any multi person game that not everyone will get everything, just how it goes.

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Just now, Prototypemind said:

Technically if you play Monopoly or Words With Friends or whatever else you might never win. That's part of playing games, you don't always get everything you want. If it's a single player, sure, but I accept in playing an MMO or any multi person game that not everyone will get everything, just how it goes.

I agree with that. Especially in an MMO, not everyone should have everything. But everything should be clearly attainable by everyone, if they invest enough time and resources into it (player skill being one of those resources).

 

With the current system, if someone, theoretically, has infinite time, infinite skills, and infinite resources, there is still, theoretically, a very minute chance that they will never ever get some of the items in this game. And that is what makes this system flawed, in my opinion.

 

And yes, in some games you don't win. Case in point: Monopoly. But most people have fun in Monopoly, even if they lose. Because there are incremental rewards along the way that keeps your interest up. Even if literally every single roll you have is utter crap, you still get to pass Go and collect $200. That's incremental reward. It makes you feel you accomplished something, and you still have a chance to fight back. That is entirely why that game mechanic is there.

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When it comes to necessities like weapons and accessories I agree, but with cosmetics taking time to get them and not having them guaranteed I feel should be a part of the game.

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Listen   
On 2/14/2016 at 1:48 AM, Synusoidal said:

This isn't going to be a "Waaah! I hate RNG!" post. I'm perfectly aware of the element of randomness, what random means, how it can be fun, and how it is almost a fundamental building block of any game, let alone MMOs.

 

But the way RNG is implemented in this game is possibly the worst I've seen. And this game is full of it. As much as I love this this game, I'm almost about to completely give up on trying to get anything shiny for myself.

 

If you have to grind a boss for days and days, non-stop, with no sense of accomplishment towards your goal what so ever, it gets frustrating and annoying. It doesn't make the reward feel any more special. Instead of me going "Yay! Finally! I got the thing I wanted!", I just go "***'ing finally. ****! I just wasted 2 days of gameplay on this piece of ****!"

 

The easiest fix to RNG that is so rampant in this game and is frustrating so many players is to give people a sense of reward when they invest some time towards that thing they want. Be it an outfit, that soul shield, whatever. Here are some ways you can make RNG be less frustrating to your players:

 

1. The Lazy Way: Every time the person invests X amount of time and doesn't get the thing they want due to RNG, increase the chance of success slightly the next time they decide to invest time in it.

2. The Common Way: Every time the person invests X amount of time and doesn't get the thing they want due to RNG, give them some tokens. Then, offer that thing they want as something they can just buy if they have enough of those tokens.

3. The Fun Way: Provide multiple ways for getting that thing they want, each with different levels of difficulty and risk and different chances of success in combination with the methods above.

 

Currently, if I want the Stinger outfit, I have one option: I have to sit there and kill Pinchy. Then spin a wheel. Did I get the outfit? No? Repeat. Over and over and over and over and over again with absolutely no sense of accomplishment at each step. Yes, I realize I can buy essences on the market. Fine. Ok.

 

So now I want the Temptress outfit from Nightshade Harbor. How do I get it? I have to go in and wait until A. Scarlet Widow and Cobalt Widow spawn, and B. A group shows up so that we can safely kill them. Every 15-20 minutes. Then a box drops. I open the box. Did I get the outfit exchange ticket? No? Repeat! Over and over and over and over and over again with absolutely no sense of accomplishment at each step. And with this one, I can't go to the market.

 

Can somebody explain to me where is the "fun" in this? I thought games were supposed to be fun.

 

This is ridiculous. If this is your definition of "westernization", I'm not surprised the localization of the game's text is at the state it is now.

 

 

Thank you so much for this post. You're very right. The RNG in this game is staggering. 

I've been dying for the Cobalt Widow Wig, and I've run the dungeon well over fifty times with no sign of the hair. I've seen everything drop excluding the Cobalt Widow Wig. 

There are others I've spoken to who have run this dungeon well over eighty times and they said they've seen everything minus the hair. Excuse me, what does this say about the drop rate of this hairstyle and this ridiculous RNG system? 

At least offer other ways to get outfits in this game. Grinding BSH 4Man is exhausting and I've wasted days trying to get this hairstyle. 

I mentioned this in my other post, but I'm increasingly circumspect of wanting to play this game after being f***** so hard by RNG system just for the new hair. 

With Blackram Supply Chain, Poharan's hair dropped various times-- at the least it would drop once or twice out of ten runs. But this is completely baffling and absurd. 

To run a dungeon that is significantly more time consuming and one that requires a lot more mechanics should mean that the reward system should be.. .well, more 'rewarding'. But it seems to me that this dungeon's drop rate for costumes is somewhere in the gutter-hole. 

 

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I agree to an extent. Specially in the case of Pinchy as a perfect example. This world boss is time consuming what with his mechanics (hiding, bomb etc) and all. Your post made me think of a system already implemented in-game: The Siren and the Pirate emblem. Having no luck getting the specific Soul Shield number you are farming for? If you have enough of these emblems, there is an NPC you can exchange them in the worst case that the RNG god totally ignores all your effort. I, as i understand you are as well, am not suggesting that they make acquiring items like costumes easy. I am a fan of grinding as it is indeed rewarding after putting in effort and finally getting what you have worked for. So make the emblems needed for exchange a lot. 100, 200, use your imagination. This system would just give a sense of direction that you are actually working towards something. That in the worst case scenario, should RNG fail you till the bitter end, you would have that 1000+ emblem needed to finally exchange and acquire that item you are grinding for. Senseless grinding without a far yet definite reward may appeal to some, but not to me. And I think you are no fan of it too OP, if I understand your sentiments correctly.

Edited by Trafalgar_Law

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HMint   

On one hand I agree.

On the other hand my inventory space does not allow for various tokens to be held.

I am already spending like 25% of my playing time sorting the inventory to make some space... >_<

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On 2/18/2016 at 7:41 AM, Trafalgar_Law said:

I agree to an extent. Specially in the case of Pinchy as a perfect example. This world boss is time consuming what with his mechanics (hiding, bomb etc) and all. Your post made me think of a system already implemented in-game: The Siren and the Pirate emblem. Having no luck getting the specific Soul Shield number you are farming for? If you have enough of these emblems, there is an NPC you can exchange them in the worst case that the RNG god totally ignores all your effort. I, as i understand you are as well, am not suggesting that they make acquiring items like costumes easy. I am a fan of grinding as it is indeed rewarding after putting in effort and finally getting what you have worked for. So make the emblems needed for exchange a lot. 100, 200, use your imagination. This system would just give a sense of direction that you are actually working towards something. That in the worst case scenario, should RNG fail you till the bitter end, you would have that 1000+ emblem needed to finally exchange and acquire that item you are grinding for. Senseless grinding without a far yet definite reward may appeal to some, but not to me. And I think you are no fan of it too OP, if I understand your sentiments correctly.

 

That is exactly what I'm suggesting. Don't change the drop rates. Give us incremental progress.

 

On 2/18/2016 at 7:56 AM, HMint said:

On one hand I agree.

On the other hand my inventory space does not allow for various tokens to be held.

I am already spending like 25% of my playing time sorting the inventory to make some space... >_<

 

I'm willing to live with having to deal with a new Token type if it means I don't have to lose my soul wasting my life throwing dice in the hopes that maybe...maybe...one day I'll get the thing I want.

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RNG is complete garbage mechanic and has no place in any game were do A to get B is accomplished. free stuff from the company? sure, just kidding, I say no.

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Yuhika   

I'd rather outfits be locked behind insanely challenging content than behind RNG. 

 

Same reason I never grinded out Shiny Pokemon or perfect natures in older Pokemon games, It's too much cricketing time being under the mercy of a nonsensically low % of reaching your goal.

 

If not that I like how PSO2 gives bonuses when players work together in dungeons, damage increases, rare drop increases money increases, PSO2 knows how to make teamwork count and make loot hunting fun.

 

I probably sound like a broken record by now but whatever that MMO has a lot of fantastic mechanics that everyone needs to adopt yesterday.

Edited by Yuhika

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Eh, someone was just posting earlier about PS having 1 and 2% drop rates for some items, so that really doesn't sound any more enjoyable. At least here you can guarantee your weapons with Brilliant keys if worse comes to worst. As for cosmetics, again, it's part of what keeps people playing. Yeah, it's not perfect for everyone. Some players quit because they make their eyes bleed grinding out outfitters, but on the other hand some would leave if they could have every piece they wanted after just a few runs. There's no catch all way to do it.

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Yuhika   
4 minutes ago, Prototypemind said:

Eh, someone was just posting earlier about PS having 1 and 2% drop rates for some items, so that really doesn't sound any more enjoyable. At least here you can guarantee your weapons with Brilliant keys if worse comes to worst. As for cosmetics, again, it's part of what keeps people playing. Yeah, it's not perfect for everyone. Some players quit because they make their eyes bleed grinding out outfitters, but on the other hand some would leave if they could have every piece they wanted after just a few runs. There's no catch all way to do it.

 

Those are likely 10 star+ weapons. The real tragedy is their upgrade system... oiiiiii.

 

Unlike BNS PSO2 really is a full on loot hunter though so it's expected that it's not so easy to just stumble across the rarest items either.

 

Edited by Yuhika

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4 minutes ago, Prototypemind said:

Eh, someone was just posting earlier about PS having 1 and 2% drop rates for some items, so that really doesn't sound any more enjoyable. At least here you can guarantee your weapons with Brilliant keys if worse comes to worst. As for cosmetics, again, it's part of what keeps people playing. Yeah, it's not perfect for everyone. Some players quit because they make their eyes bleed grinding out outfitters, but on the other hand some would leave if they could have every piece they wanted after just a few runs. There's no catch all way to do it.

 

Except there IS a catch-all way to it. Exactly as I mentioned it. And my idea isn't exactly something new. Even BnS employs it for some stuff with things like Siren Emblems and Soul Shields.

 

Just give people tokens.

 

Then the grinders will happily grind, and people won't quit your game out of frustration.

 

I just decided to stop grinding for the Seductress outfit. After so many tries, I just decided it's not worth my sanity. That's one less thing I'll be doing in this game, which makes the game as a whole a lot less appealing to me. Where instead if I knew if I kept at this for another month, I'd get the outfit with 100% guarantee, I'd still be interested a month from now.

Edited by Synusoidal

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Most MMOs don't have guarantees for cosmetics, at least not all of them. GW2 does, but for some items I'd rather bang my head against an RNG wall and hope that do the grind that comes with them. Even in GW2 though there are some that were tied to one-time-only events and were RNG-based, so if you missed the event or didn't get lucky you're just out back. SWTOR has RNG-only outfits, mounts, etc. WoW does afaik. Vindictus has the added bonus of making you pay real money to participate in possibly getting them, though some are guaranteed eventually by spending at most $600 or so... I really can't think of any games off the top of my head where all cosmetics are guaranteed to any player who puts in enough time, but you're free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

As far as getting the new items in NSH/BSH, you're better off clearing the instances a few times here and there and then going to do other things. Just buy essences when you have extra gold and spin the wheel. The drop rates are likely similar, and 20 essences or so on the wheel a day will probably keep your more chill than waiting for the Widows to spawn again and again. I wanted Dark Pirate for my BM and one of the Widow's sets for my Sin so I cleared all bosses for the daily, took my drops when I got 'em, and bought essences for extra spins. Ended up getting both of them from the chests. I've never managed to get Pinchy or Kaari's outfits; maybe I will one day, maybe I won't, but I find it's best not to let that decide my whole experience because this game already has enough grind in it for two MMOs.

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Bladez   

I ran away from games like Vindictus and came here to only find myself using 250 something keys and not get that Hujikar sword. I got a ton of everything else. Oh o h and guess what, those are not even tradable to get some profit out of the raid. I will be running away from this game pretty soon and that's not the only reason. Already uninstall too so.

Edited by Bladez

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RNG is just that, random. It can give someone an amazing experience while giving someone else a completely horrifying one. There isn't a real great way to fix this except not to use it, and this game is full of it, as are the very similar versions overseas. I don't think this will be adjusted anytime soon...maybe they could increase the likelyhood you'll get what you want on a specific class?

 

I dunno, I think finding gear for other classes is a done concept in gaming anyway. Lots of action RPGs focus on finding stuff your personal character can use, and while I know this is an MMO, you are supposed to feel excited when you loot something, not defeated. If your system puts someone into a mind numbing state of pure grinding and just constantly losing hope...that's not that great a system.

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9 hours ago, Bladez said:

I ran away from games like Vindictus and came here to only find myself using 250 something keys and not get that Hujikar sword. I got a ton of everything else. Oh o h and guess what, those are not even tradable to get some profit out of the raid. I will be running away from this game pretty soon and that's not the only reason. Already uninstall too so.

 

Yup. The fact that everything is not tradeable means most people don't have a choice by to keep grinding so that maybe. MAYBE. Maybe one day they'll get that thing. Which is just a really sketchy business tactic to use gambling as a way to artificially boost the lifetime of an MMO.

 

7 hours ago, Froggyman said:

RNG is just that, random. It can give someone an amazing experience while giving someone else a completely horrifying one. There isn't a real great way to fix this except not to use it, and this game is full of it, as are the very similar versions overseas. I don't think this will be adjusted anytime soon...maybe they could increase the likelyhood you'll get what you want on a specific class?

 

I dunno, I think finding gear for other classes is a done concept in gaming anyway. Lots of action RPGs focus on finding stuff your personal character can use, and while I know this is an MMO, you are supposed to feel excited when you loot something, not defeated. If your system puts someone into a mind numbing state of pure grinding and just constantly losing hope...that's not that great a system.

 

There are many ways to fix RNG. I just proposed 3. And you just proposed a 4th.

 

You bring up a lot of good points. A lot of single-player games rely on RNG as well. And it's rewarding. Case in point: Fallout 4. It might be very rare to find a super awesome sniper rifle, and only a few people managed to get it. But here's the point: That super awesome sniper rifle is just one of the gazillion options you have.

 

In here, you have one choice most of the time. You want your next level weapon? There is only ONE weapon that can get your there. And it drops from ONE event. Good luck!

 

6 hours ago, DolphinHungry said:

20th box open = class weapon

-----------------------------------------

most ppl happy

 

You're most people? Good to know.

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Loreatus   

+ to this post. I definitely agree when it comes to weapon that RNG should be fixed, or weapon should be tradeable among players.

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At this point it's at worst about two days of dailies to get enough to buy even a Brilliant Moonwater stone off of the MP. It's your choice to beat your head against Hujikar forever and use regular keys. On top of that, you're given a free Moonwater key to use as you see fit, so that's a guaranteed purple weapon with no work at all. Two days for each weapon upgrade is nothing compared to most games. SWTOR it was a few weeks of operations to get the mats you needed. GW2 it's generally well over a month of grinding gold to get all Ascended weapons and trinkets. Same for WoW, same for almost everything else out there.

 

If your focus is upgrading your weapon it really doesn't take that long. The main annoyance is that you don't have many choices of how you do it as you go farther along because the most profitable runs are few, meaning you get into a daily grind that starts to feel like a job. Unfortunately this game is new and the dailies aren't diverse enough to really give any variety.

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