Is PvP actually unbalanced?

[Cyneris]

I wish I could have found the post again. One person made a very good point. I'll just summarize his one page explanation.

PvP is revolved around players who can play their class at 100% of it's potential. Some classes are easier to play (ie: summoner/destroyer), therefor a player playing summoner at 70% of it's potential may play a KFM at only 40% of it's potential. In most cases, the summoner will win over the KFM because they can pull out more of its potential.

 

I've seen quite a few times people posting numbers on the stats of classes in gold and up. So let me update that quick.

 

NA servers: Classes Gold+:

Summoner: 500

Blade Dancer: 357

Destroyer: 301

Kung Fu Master: 210

Assassin: 190

Force Master: 107

Blade Master: 61

 

 

 

Looking at these, it looks a little daunting, right? But remember, this is Gold and up. Going back to what I summarized above, this is to be expected. The harder classes have a harder time going up in rank. Now, let's look at some more numbers to clear it up a little.

 

NA Servers: Classes in top 50:

Blade Master: 2 (3.27%)

Kung Fu Master: 12 (5.71%)

Force Master: 3 (2.80%)

Destroyer: 5 (1.67%)

Assassin: 7 (3.68%)

Summoner: 11 (2.20%)

Blade Dancer: 10 (2.80%)

 

Top 10:

1. Madoshi (Force Master; 1930)

2. Kingg (Kung Fu Master; 1911)

3. Akito (Assassin; 1906)

4. Silas (Blade Dancer; 1905)

5. LilUshio (Kung Fu Master; 1900)

6. BUK (Kung Fu Master; 1900)

7. A r (Blade Dancer; 1888)

8. Hsom (Kung Fu Master; 1865)

9. IamGenieForYouGirl (Summoner; 1863)

10. Houetter (Force Master; 1856)

 

 

Well, this spread looks a little more reasonable. The percentages in the parenthesis are the percentage of the current Gold Rank+ of that class. So for example, 2.8% of the blade dancers that are gold and up are in the top 50.

 

When you take it to the top 50 players, it's safer to assume that they play at a higher level on their classes. Notice how evenly spread out it is. Kung Fu Master has the highest percentage by a couple points. One of the commonly bashed classes, destroyer, actually has THE LOWEST score here.

 

So, now it shouldn't be too hard to see that PvP actually seems decently balanced (only thing that would have made it better is if there was a blade master in place of one of the KFMs in the top 10).

 

What players don't realize is the Dunning-Kruger effect. Just because you crush a few players doesn't mean that you've hit your ceiling. Still in gold, players make many, many mistakes that a pro player would pick up on and capitalize.

 

But enough of my ramblings. Hopefully you guys will be able to see that even though some classes seem stronger than others, it's just that you're not at your 100% yet.

[Jamein]

Honestly any analysis right now is pointless. You're going to need analyse platinum and above after a week or so to get any meaningful results.

Right now you've got people who PVP'd doing the new PVE content to get a few HM skills/points or just people who haven't played yet. 

 

Not to mention analysis using the gold bracket at all is pretty pointless. We all know the learning curve on Summoner/BD/Destro is a lot lower than other classes, so a bad player that plays a summoner for example will have a much easier time getting to gold than a bad player that plays a blademaster, but when he tries to get any further he will be knocked back down by good players until he improves/learns to outplay and counter play.

 

tl;dr some classes will always dominate the lower brackets because they're easier to play at a lower skill level, the balance is better at the high ranks than it is at the low ranks. It's not perfect, but it's better than it is at bronze to (low-mid) gold where no one understands how to play against each class.

[Kutsuu]

It's not just about how hard they are to play... it's also about demographics. The fact is that most NA players follow trends and roll what they perceive to be the strongest classes. There are simply a lot more people playing a subset of the classes. Regardless of the balance, if you have more people on a particular class you will see more represented in the lists. 

 

Let's also keep in mind that most players (maybe all) do not yet have their HM skill, and they are not HM5. A BM with HM Lightning Draw and 11 extra skill points has a lot more burst and utility than they did without them, but it will take time to see the good BMs attaining these things. I look forward to seeing players complain about getting crit for 10k by a BM :)

[Cyneris]

20 minutes ago, Jamein said:

Honestly any analysis right now is pointless. You're going to need analyse platinum and above after a week or so to get any meaningful results.

Right now you've got people who PVP'd doing the new PVE content to get a few HM skills/points or just people who haven't played yet. 

 

Not to mention analysis using the gold bracket at all is pretty pointless. We all know the learning curve on Summoner/BD/Destro is a lot lower than other classes, so a bad player that plays a summoner for example will have a much easier time getting to gold than a bad player that plays a blademaster, but when he tries to get any further he will be knocked back down by good players until he improves/learns to outplay and counter play.

 

tl;dr some classes will always dominate the lower brackets because they're easier to play at a lower skill level, the balance is better at the high ranks than it is at the low ranks. It's not perfect, but it's better than it is at bronze to (low-mid) gold where no one understands how to play against each class.

 

Yes, good summary xD

 

This post is aimed at the people who all are complaining about the imbalance, looking only at biased information. Soon enough it'll be even clearer when there are more plat players and more representative data is available.

 

[Neversap]

You have a point, the learning curve for some classes is lower. And yes, when we look at the top 10% of the game, things seem to be more balanced.

However, can those 10%(so called pro players) represent the other 90%?

In other word, when we talk about balancing, we are referring to the whole game, not just the very 10% of this game.

By only looking at the top 50 out of maybe 80k players, that's more like biased information.

 

I'm not here to cry about how strong certain classes are, because that won't help a bit. But try playing one of those classes and learn, you will either find their weakness or fall in love with that class.

[Jamein]

Problem is you can't balance from the bottom up, that's just not how games work, because the whole idea of the game is that players are meant to get better at it over time. Right now BNS is still new to the western crowd.

 

Not to mention if they want us to compete in the E-sports scene, which they do, they have to make sure its balanced at the top. Right now the balance isn't out of whack because of the classes potential, it's because of how well they do against lower tier players who haven't learned their own class. You just cant balance around those players.

 

Although overall it's a moot point because we get the balance patches that korea have, the only difference is our content and levels so whether it throws things out of whack or not doesn't matter because the whole point is that we catch up to them on content and patches, NCwest really don't have a say in it.

[Neversap]

3 minutes ago, Jamein said:

 

I have to disagree on that. As a developer myself, you have to understand what your crowd is. Is BNS aiming at the top 10%? Only their team would know the answer. If I'm to assume, BNS isn't designed for just the 10% pro-players, therefore, they don't just balance for the 10%.

That's just my two cents.

[Kutsuu]

Just now, Neversap said:

You have a point, the learning curve for some classes is lower. And yes, when we look at the top 10% of the game, things seem to be more balanced.

However, can those 10%(so called pro players) represent the other 90%?

In other word, when we talk about balancing, we are referring to the whole game, not just the very 10% of this game.

By only looking at the top 50 out of maybe 80k players, that's more like biased information.

 

I'm not here to cry about how strong certain classes are, because that won't help a bit. But try playing one of those classes and learn, you will either find their weakness or fall in love with that class.

 

You can't have unique and varied classes without different skill requirements to play them. Please try to be realistic. 

[Jamein]

Just now, Neversap said:

I have to disagree on that. As a developer myself, you have to understand what your crowd is. Is BNS aiming at the top 10%? Only their team would know the answer. If I'm to assume, BNS isn't designed for just the 10% pro-players, therefore, they don't just balance for the 10%.

That's just my two cents.

What you're essentially saying is they should balance around a players lack of knowledge and skill level. This is absolutely impossible to do as everyone is different and just not even logical.

[Neversap]

Just now, Kutsuu said:

 

You can't have unique and varied classes without different skill requirements to play them. Please try to be realistic. 

You are absolutely correct on that one. Some classes require more experience and skills to play.

I just don't think that's a good argument on the topic: is this game balanced.

 

[Justsomeone]

1 minute ago, Jamein said:

What you're essentially saying is they should balance around a players lack of knowledge and skill level. This is absolutely impossible to do as everyone is different and just not even logical.

THE MOST SKILLED PLAYER PLAY THE WORST CLASS LETS NERF THE WORST CLASS PLS

[Jamein]

2 minutes ago, Neversap said:

You are absolutely correct on that one. Some classes require more experience and skills to play.

I just don't think that's a good argument on the topic: is this game balanced.

 

The answer is, yes it's pretty balanced (not perfect, some classes could use a tweak or so) what is imbalanced is the difference in every individuals skill level/knowledge on the game. 

 

If you want to improve the balance, find ways to improve the average player.

[Neversap]

3 minutes ago, Jamein said:

What you're essentially saying is they should balance around a players lack of knowledge and skill level. This is absolutely impossible to do as everyone is different and just not even logical.

That's no what I'm saying. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

I'm saying that when the team try to balance this game, they do not just look at the top players. And this applies to every other game.

 

[Kutsuu]

Just now, Neversap said:

You are absolutely correct on that one. Some classes require more experience and skills to play.

I just don't think that's a good argument on the topic: is this game balanced.

 

 

It's difficult to measure balance with a game like this where skill plays such a big role. I believe that if I were in the shoes of the developer, I would balance based on players who have a strong grasp of their class and are capable of using it to a high degree of effectiveness. This will inevitably be the top (X)% of players, as much of the lower %age is either not max level or not experienced enough to use their class anywhere close to its potential. 

 

If you balance around simplistic or low level use of the class, you will inevitably end up with situations where a competent player is extremely overpowered. 

[Jamein]

1 minute ago, Neversap said:

That's no what I'm saying. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

I'm saying that when the team try to balance this game, they do not just look at the top players. And this applies to every other game.

 

But this is exactly my point, the game isn't imbalanced at lower tiers because of the classes themselves, its because of the players. You CANNOT balance due to a players lack of knowledge/skill. If its balanced at high level then this SHOULD in theory trickle down the ranks, but it's impossible to really foresee how much effort your average player is going to put into the game.

[Kutsuu]

If only they could take everyone's skill, pool it together, and divide it among the players. This is the kind of "ekwality" that we demand in our society. 

 

Reference material: 

 

 

[Neversap]

6 minutes ago, Jamein said:

3 minutes ago, Kutsuu said:

1 minute ago, Jamein said:

But this is exactly my point, the game isn't imbalanced at lower tiers because of the classes themselves, its because of the players. You CANNOT balance due to a players lack of knowledge/skill. If its balanced at high level then this SHOULD in theory trickle down the ranks, but it's impossible to really foresee how much effort your average player is going to put into the game.

It's difficult to measure balance with a game like this where skill plays such a big role. I believe that if I were in the shoes of the developer, I would balance based on players who have a strong grasp of their class and are capable of using it to a high degree of effectiveness. This will inevitably be the top (X)% of players, as much of the lower %age is either not max level or not experienced enough to use their class anywhere close to its potential. 

 

If you balance around simplistic or low level use of the class, you will inevitably end up with situations where a competent player is extremely overpowered. 

The answer is, yes it's pretty balanced (not perfect) what is imbalanced is the difference in every individuals skill level/knowledge on the game. 

 

If you want to improve the balance, find ways to improve the average player.

The truth is some classes are currently using level 50 talent tree with level 45 skill points. And certain classes are missing their H.M skills in order to deal with certain situation. Am i correct?

[Justsomeone]

simple fact: if u need to do more effort to kill someone with another class you are already more skilled than the other player, it's just basic math while player 1 need to do 1000hits to win, player 2 just need to do 2 hits, it's like fighting 7th boss of mushin tower with the first weapon no matter how many times u try and  how skilled you are, you are not going to win.

the video posted above prove that,

player 1 is more skilled but he is a bm/fm so he get -1000 points in  his stats

player 2 is less skilled but he plays a summoner/destroyer/bd/sin so he get +1000points in his stats

 

[Technno]

After a path spoiled characters.

Force Master got cloning and system sleep. I met with the arena more than 10 times. You can not win against it.

KFM pounding stun stun the skills to come up do not work.

Summoner before begining begining was a challenge to overcome now it is not so.
I'am DMG Summoner after 2000-3000, and he beats me at 50-1000 no chance of winning.

[Soapsalesman]

Just stupid how you can play a summoner and dominate easily compared to other classes.

If you don't do everything perfect to beat them as your class then your considered bad for not being able to perfectly out play the enemy, when in reality its just because they are easier to play because they have an absurd kit that needs to be toned down.

 

The PVP boards show that summoners are way up there in gold because the skill it takes to use their kit is way easier because of how overpowered it is.

That being said a summoner with a little skill goes a long way and a summoner with equal ammount of skill to a pro player will always win unless countered perfectly on a mistake

 

[Richu]

I agree with TS. BnS PVP are balanced base on people playing on high skill level. BUK placing top 6 in the leaderboard despite playing from taiwan with 170ms are giving us information that NA player isnt playing their class at high skill level. 

[Tukiisan]

Quote

Don't BE FOOLED by all this POST... KFM is the last character you want to play if you doing PVE or PVP... Yeah you get alot of fancy moves but you will be totally useless in both end game. Just my advice to those who want to play KFM... KFM are not even in the top 10 or top 100 in ranking for PVP... If you see a KFM in top 100 means who ever below must have really suck to the max..

 

[Kalitas]

THİS GAME UNBALANCED TO THE CORE. İ wrote it tons of times and İ will write it again. Let me explain it why it is unbalanced with an example. Okey lets take two players exactly the same. Same person actually. One of them plays sin and one of them plays bm. SİN WİLL WİN %100 even they are the same person. Or Fm *cricket*s WL no matter what happens. Or u have to be the god to win with WL while bd will only spam his/her 3 resist skill, Q E SS all game long , choke, pentaslah , stun and perma spin you and when he dont have *cricket*ng resist skills they will just roll around map with spin till cd and ta daaaa. Won by doing nothing.. This is what this game's problem. Some classses can never win against other classes. Some classes need so much practise and skill to win while some classses only need 2 or 3 button. THİS İS WHAT CALLED UNBALANCED PVP. İn balanced pvp u can win no mattter what your class is and what is your openent's class. İn this game winner determinate by : 1) Your Class 2) Openent Class 3) Skill...

[azraelkun]

On 10/2/2016 at 4:51 PM, Cyneris said:

I wish I could have found the post again. One person made a very good point. I'll just summarize his one page explanation.

PvP is revolved around players who can play their class at 100% of it's potential. Some classes are easier to play (ie: summoner/destroyer), therefor a player playing summoner at 70% of it's potential may play a KFM at only 40% of it's potential. In most cases, the summoner will win over the KFM because they can pull out more of its potential.

 

I've seen quite a few times people posting numbers on the stats of classes in gold and up. So let me update that quick.

 

NA servers: Classes Gold+:

Summoner: 500

Blade Dancer: 357

Destroyer: 301

Kung Fu Master: 210

Assassin: 190

Force Master: 107

Blade Master: 61

 

 

 

Looking at these, it looks a little daunting, right? But remember, this is Gold and up. Going back to what I summarized above, this is to be expected. The harder classes have a harder time going up in rank. Now, let's look at some more numbers to clear it up a little.

 

NA Servers: Classes in top 50:

Blade Master: 2 (3.27%)

Kung Fu Master: 12 (5.71%)

Force Master: 3 (2.80%)

Destroyer: 5 (1.67%)

Assassin: 7 (3.68%)

Summoner: 11 (2.20%)

Blade Dancer: 10 (2.80%)

 

Top 10:

1. Madoshi (Force Master; 1930)

2. Kingg (Kung Fu Master; 1911)

3. Akito (Assassin; 1906)

4. Silas (Blade Dancer; 1905)

5. LilUshio (Kung Fu Master; 1900)

6. BUK (Kung Fu Master; 1900)

7. A r (Blade Dancer; 1888)

8. Hsom (Kung Fu Master; 1865)

9. IamGenieForYouGirl (Summoner; 1863)

10. Houetter (Force Master; 1856)

 

 

Well, this spread looks a little more reasonable. The percentages in the parenthesis are the percentage of the current Gold Rank+ of that class. So for example, 2.8% of the blade dancers that are gold and up are in the top 50.

 

When you take it to the top 50 players, it's safer to assume that they play at a higher level on their classes. Notice how evenly spread out it is. Kung Fu Master has the highest percentage by a couple points. One of the commonly bashed classes, destroyer, actually has THE LOWEST score here.

 

So, now it shouldn't be too hard to see that PvP actually seems decently balanced (only thing that would have made it better is if there was a blade master in place of one of the KFMs in the top 10).

 

What players don't realize is the Dunning-Kruger effect. Just because you crush a few players doesn't mean that you've hit your ceiling. Still in gold, players make many, many mistakes that a pro player would pick up on and capitalize.

 

But enough of my ramblings. Hopefully you guys will be able to see that even though some classes seem stronger than others, it's just that you're not at your 100% yet.

I so agree with ur post gj mate

[Sherlock MacDumpster]

4 hours ago, Tukiisan said:

We have so many WANNABE posters in here trying to explain how pro they are but they got nothing to prove their PVP is in a positive side... NOT USING Summoner, Assassin or Soul Fighter...

 

Always talk about rating they read on the web or either make up their own.. Basically If i was playing Assassin or Summoner and meet up with a same class it's going to be a 50/50 win.. So better to brag about other class better than to have more people playing the same class.

 

I play a KFM deck out geared PVE no issues but PVP you can even lose to a lvl30 Summoner... or Assassin... That is how unbalance it is... but in Open PVP i can do well... Just ARENA is over unbalance. 

Lately i really want to give up this game so met a friend who plays Summoner and using hacks.. He even showed me what the hack can do...

 

You can write out a whole auto combo counter or should i say a sure win button... So that's really disappointing... Either i give up this game or sell off my account to another friend who want to go through the stress of this game.

 

I doubt NCSOFT going to fix this cause it is happening in all other servers... So my two cents advice just use hack less headache if you haven't spend any money into your account...

You are fully pve geared but yet you can't win against lvl 30 summoners as KFM? Sorry to break your world but you probably just suck at pvp and should stay in Cold Storage farming your HM levels forever. The ONLY bad matchup for you is Assassin. Kfm can win against other class in the game (granted a good BM will be though but totally beatable). 

 

EDIT: after having read your post a second time, it's so full of blantant garbage that it might actually be a troll attempt... I hope it is, for your sake.