Current class numbers in gold+ disgust me

[Cogbyrn]

3 minutes ago, Zooks said:

 

So, you're talking all about data points and statistics without even bothering to look at the data for yourself. Press F11 in-game.

 

30+ out of 100 of the top players are Summoners. Seriously. If you have any experience with PVP and games with ranking (especially at high level play), you would realize that there's more going on than Summoners being popular. They are undoubtedly easier to master, but at high ranking people have a pretty firm grasp on their class, core mechanics, and the various matchups. The community HAS deemed Summoners OP as evidenced by the number of complaints about them on this forum. Okay, so there's more Summoners in the top 100 because of FOTM rerollers? There is a reason FOTM rerollers exist. 

 

All I'm doing is pointing out that I don't think you have enough information to draw the conclusions you're trying to draw.  I'm not making any assertions whatsoever about the current state of the game.  All I see is what posters like you are providing me, and that isn't convincing me of anything.

 

My experience with PvP tells me that people have no backbone to persevere through any sort of frustration, they'll switch teams/class on a dime, and if they hit a wall with their "OP" class, they'll quit and say the game is garbage.  I also see some select players making lesser-played classes work competitively across all games, and still communities will excuse those examples because "well that person is a special case."  They can't even admit that if they do the work, they can make it work.

 

So I'm really not surprised people are flocking to the easier classes to play, especially in a game like BnS that is pretty difficult to get the hang of (compared to most other MMOs I've played).  And so what if other classes require more effort to get to work?  Some people like that rewarding feeling of mastering a difficult class.  When I see FM representation in the Top 50, I don't try to see how few there are and make a claim that FM is UP.  I see a goal that I can reach if I work hard enough.

 

That's really the difference.  Many people look for excuses.  I'd rather look for a reason to keep pushing forward and getting better.

[Roxefeller]

6 minutes ago, Zooks said:

 

So, you're talking all about data points and statistics without even bothering to look at the data for yourself. Press F11 in-game.

 

30+ out of 100 of the top players are Summoners. Seriously. If you have any experience with PVP and games with ranking (especially at high level play), you would realize that there's more going on than Summoners being popular. They are undoubtedly easier to master, but at high ranking people have a pretty firm grasp on their class, core mechanics, and the various matchups. The community HAS deemed Summoners OP as evidenced by the number of complaints about them on this forum. Okay, so there's more Summoners in the top 100 because of FOTM rerollers? There is a reason FOTM rerollers exist. 

and guess what? There's players who have beaten and continue to beat these 30/100 Summoners in the top 100. This game's pvp is catered to player skill level. Stop complaining about class balance. JUST STOP! If a skilled player chooses to play the FOTM class, then DEAL WITH IT! Spend the time learning how to counter that class.. because it is possible. If you aren't skilled enough. Face it, you've hit your wall/skill cap.

[Michieltjuhh]

13 minutes ago, Roxefeller said:

Even though it's not like this at all, since you fail to grasp that this game simply comes down to the player's skill. Nothing more. Nothing less. A Force Master won the last community tournament and Force Master is perceived to be among the weakest of classes next to Blade Master. Guess what? He fought every class, including Blade Dancer and Summoner.. So.... just stop.

I'll just quote myself from a few posts ago since you conveniently skipped past that. Edit: As for the player skill part, I played World of Warcraft's arena PvP on a semi-professional level from 2007 to 2011. I know a thing or two about needing to be good at an MMORPG and I know even more about balancing issues since I played Holy Paladin and that class had been all over the *cricket* place.

 

Quote

Another example is StarCraft 2. I'm a Grandmaster player there and the only real reason I got there was because at the start of this expansion my main race, Protoss, dominated the hell out of the Terran race. Yes, some Korean Terran players still did fine. That doesn't mean that Protoss was balanced against them. You would've argued it was, simply because a few Korean gods managed to continue wrecking as Terran. And even the slow-as-hell Blizzard did some balance changes recently.

If you don't play StarCraft 2, just know it's far more challenging to play than this. Just replace "Terran" with "Blade Master/Force Master/whatever weak(er) class" and Protoss with "Summoner/Blade Dancer/whatever strong(er) class". Edit: And Grandmaster is the top 200 of each region.

[Matangi]

this pvp is a fkg joke

[OddFinrir]

I got bored, so I decided to add fuel to the fire. These numbers don't mean much and can be interpreted multiple ways if you have a decent brain, though. XD

 

Top 955 (can't see last page):

• Blade Master - 18
• Kung Fu Master - 123
• Force Master - 67
• Destroyer - 145
• Assassin - 89
• Summoner - 324
• Blade Dancer - 189

 

Above 1600:

• Blade Master - 143
• Kung Fu Master - 473
• Force Master - 275
• Destroyer - 773
• Assassin - 489
• Summoner - 950+
• Blade Dancer - 903

[Zooks]

1 minute ago, Cogbyrn said:

When I see FM representation in the Top 50, I don't try to see how few there are and make a claim that FM is UP.  I see a goal that I can reach if I work hard enough.

 

That's really the difference.  Many people look for excuses.  I'd rather look for a reason to keep pushing forward and getting better.

 

I like that attitude and agree, but come back and talk to us when you fight 10 Summoners in a row and feel like a helpless toddler trying to disarm a nuclear weapon. I don't think you'll be quite as positive. I'm not that great at this game, but I know an OP class when I see it, and Summoner fits the bill right now. I've played way too many PVP games to simply think Summoners are popular, or easy, or FOTM or whatever. They're extremely overpowered at low rating because nobody has any idea how to play against them, and extremely strong at high rating even when you do know how to play against them. 

[Roxefeller]

1 minute ago, Michieltjuhh said:

I'll just quote myself from a few posts ago since you conveniently skipped past that.

 

If you don't play StarCraft 2, just know it's far more challenging to play than this. Just replace "Terran" with "Blade Master/Force Master/whatever weak(er) class" and Protoss with "Summoner/Blade Dancer/whatever strong(er) class".

I didn't "conveniently skip passed* that". Guess what? Ranks reset every season. Players of all classes climb that very same rank ladder every time it gets reset. If your argument is the game isn't balanced NOW (which it is as all classes are fully capable of defeating any other class)... then stop bitching about it and take the time to read about upcoming balance patches. As NCSoft has stated multiple times, they are following the KR balance patches.

[TerraDraco]

38 minutes ago, kuro1n said:

From the game, it's all there.

Right now I am doing it by hand since I don't dare injecting any DLL, the risk of ban is too big.

Create new acc. I dont think they will IP ban you.

[Cogbyrn]

Just now, Zooks said:

 

I like that attitude and agree, but come back and talk to us when you fight 10 Summoners in a row and feel like a helpless toddler trying to disarm a nuclear weapon. I don't think you'll be quite as positive. I'm not that great at this game, but I know an OP class when I see it, and Summoner fits the bill right now. I've played way too many PVP games to simply think Summoners are popular, or easy, or FOTM or whatever. They're extremely overpowered at low rating because nobody has any idea how to play against them, and extremely strong at high rating even when you do know how to play against them. 

 

I wish I could fight 10 Summoners in a row, then maybe I could actually remember what I tried last time and work on a strategy.  In GW2 I would often duel the same Thief 10+ times in a row out in WvW, to try various things out and see if I could get something to work.  Even if I lose every time, all I really want to do after losing is re-up and work on things I didn't do well.

 

I know sparring exists in this game, and I might do it at some point, but all I'm really arguing is that often, people just hit their wall, get frustrated, and quit/complain.  I don't trust those people to dictate balance.  Even 10 fights is a very small set against a class.  The main reason that is frustrating for people is because of some belief that the other person "has it easy", so the game isn't fair.  It is a sense of injustice people seem to have, but I don't see how you should balance a game around a community's sense of justice.  Especially when I know there are players out there who can overcome the obstacles I'm currently facing.

[Roxefeller]

3 minutes ago, Zooks said:

They're extremely overpowered at low rating because nobody has any idea how to play against them, and extremely strong at high rating even when you do know how to play against them. 

1. "because nobody has any idea how to play against them" What do you expect from low-rating players that waste all of their time bitching about balance on the forums instead of LEARNING HOW TO PLAY AGAINST THEM? HM?!

2. EVERY class is extremely strong at high rating.

3. FOTM because the community has deemed them overpowered (community in this sense is the low-rating players that spend all of their time bitching about balance)

4. NA players will play the FOTM class/perceived OP class.

5. JUST STOP

[Michieltjuhh]

Just now, Cogbyrn said:

 

I wish I could fight 10 Summoners in a row, then maybe I could actually remember what I tried last time and work on a strategy.  In GW2 I would often duel the same Thief 10+ times in a row out in WvW, to try various things out and see if I could get something to work.  Even if I lose every time, all I really want to do after losing is re-up and work on things I didn't do well.

 

I know sparring exists in this game, and I might do it at some point, but all I'm really arguing is that often, people just hit their wall, get frustrated, and quit/complain.  I don't trust those people to dictate balance.  Even 10 fights is a very small set against a class.  The main reason that is frustrating for people is because of some belief that the other person "has it easy", so the game isn't fair.  It is a sense of injustice people seem to have, but I don't see how you should balance a game around a community's sense of justice.  Especially when I know there are players out there who can overcome the obstacles I'm currently facing.

You're using Guild Wars 2 as an example? Confirms you've never played an eSport. So don't argue with people that have experience in this regard.

[Roxefeller]

1 minute ago, Michieltjuhh said:

You're using Guild Wars 2 as an example? Confirms you've never played an eSport. So don't argue with people that have experience in this regard.

LOL OMG your incompetence knows no bounds. Him using Guild Wars 2 as an example is irrelevant. The situation he faced in Guild Wars 2 is the point. Not the game itself you ignorant sod.

[Michieltjuhh]

2 minutes ago, Roxefeller said:

LOL OMG your incompetence knows no bounds. Him using Guild Wars 2 as an example is irrelevant. The situation he faced in Guild Wars 2 is the point. Not the game itself you ignorant sod.

Sorry son, but you can't use an example of two awful players fighting each other over and over as the pinnacle of balance. Get real. Someone who has only done some garbage World PvP in Guild Wars 2 of all games isn't exactly someone to be trusted when talking about balance. Someone who has over 10000 arena games at top 0.5% ranking in World of Warcraft is.

[Cogbyrn]

9 minutes ago, Michieltjuhh said:

You're using Guild Wars 2 as an example? Confirms you've never played an eSport. So don't argue with people that have experience in this regard.

 

Yeah, you aren't reading what I'm writing, or at least your reading comprehension is both selective and terrible.

 

Also, being ranked Grandmaster in SC2 doesn't mean you have experience with a competitive eSport at the tournament level, nor does it mean you're any good at this game.  In fact, I'd argue you now seem entitled to some rating because you think you're a Good Gamer due to some other game.  Your perception is clouded, and I don't really trust a thing you say.  You have to make a valid argument for me to really believe you, which you haven't done.

 

I'm open to valid arguments.  Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I haven't read what you've said and given it thought.

 

EDIT - Your WoW experience doesn't carry weight with me either.  In fact, you trying to swing your laurels around as a point in your argument shows me that you don't actually have an argument.  You're just trying to throw your gamer weight behind it to shove it through as a truth.  I don't respect that at all.

[Roxefeller]

Just now, Michieltjuhh said:

Sorry son, but you can't use an example of two awful players fighting each other over and over as the pinnacle of balance. Get real. Someone who has only done some garbage World PvP in Guild Wars 2 of all games isn't exactly someone to be trusted when talking about balance. Someone who has over 10000 arena games at top 0.5% ranking in World of Warcraft is.

LOL WoW Arena PvP. What a joke. I'm Ssilentsmall, Ice mage on #1 2v2 team in Season 1. Nothing special and arenas have become even more of a joke with every following season.

In regards to your first sentence: You still fail to grasp the concept of spending time learning how to beat a class rather than bitching on forums about balance.

[Syrath]

2 minutes ago, Zooks said:

 

I like that attitude and agree, but come back and talk to us when you fight 10 Summoners in a row and feel like a helpless toddler trying to disarm a nuclear weapon. I don't think you'll be quite as positive. I'm not that great at this game, but I know an OP class when I see it, and Summoner fits the bill right now. I've played way too many PVP games to simply think Summoners are popular, or easy, or FOTM or whatever. They're extremely overpowered at low rating because nobody has any idea how to play against them, and extremely strong at high rating even when you do know how to play against them. 

I think you highlight a lot of the issue the number of summoners frustrates people when there is not a distribution of classes in particular in a game that is 1v1 people get agitated. Whether that class is OP or not, when they are strong or have an advantage that is not easy for new and learning players to adjust to, then they run into it 10 times in a 15 games when trying to learn they get frustrated, 

There is a reason there are so many of X class and to claim we are currently in a balanced state might have rose colored glasses on. There of course will be issues with the way they are deploying patches with class changes into the game to catch up.  In addition in Korea there is different social standards and ethics (eg master loot issues here) For some reason NA likes to take the path of least resistance and they reroll to the perceived FoTM perpetuating the problem as well as Korea having much better internet then NA lowering ping. It seems NCWest didnt care to take any steps to address these differences. But it is what it is not much we can do about it, it is their deployment plan.

 

My concern, with no other forms of PvP eventually players who are frustrated will reroll or stop playing, the latter we do not want. There are clearly biased defenders it's very clear these people are not here for any rational discussion. In addition there is proclaimed top players streaming playing SM main's and BD alts again perpetuates the problems and tends to lend to people that watch them rerolling to those classes seeing their success with them.

I dont know what can be done about this, it seems maybe NCWest could help new players by not allowing them to queue into level 45 players maybe an option at queue. This could at least help them learn without feeling at a huge disadvantage.

Maybe a quest (can be skipped) that send the player before the 1st arena quest, to a training dumby to use the suggested PvP build they put in or your own PvP build on a dumby that takes stuns and allows you to practice full combos. Instead of having to find pigs. 

Of course this wont help all the issues there will always be people that vent after loses or complain just as there will always be biased defenders - see this thread. 
 

[Michieltjuhh]

6 minutes ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

Yeah, you aren't reading what I'm writing, or at least your reading comprehension is both selective and terrible.

 

Also, being ranked Grandmaster in SC2 doesn't mean you have experience with a competitive eSport at the tournament level, nor does it mean you're any good at this game.  In fact, I'd argue you now seem entitled to some rating because you think you're a Good Gamer due to some other game.  Your perception is clouded, and I don't really trust a thing you say.  You have to make a valid argument for me to really believe you, which you haven't done.

 

I'm open to valid arguments.  Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I haven't read what you've said and given it thought.

I don't feel entitled to a thing. I know I'm bad at something when I am and I can tell when my opponents make mistakes easily aswell. I know for a fact I'm nowhere near the level of play in here as I am in certain other games, that could be due to the latency issues that also need to be fixed but I doubt that. That doesn't mean I have no idea about the balance. Both statistics, top players and the general populous claims that Summoners and Blade Dancers are broken. From personal experience, I claim the same. You've barely done PvP and haven't even looked at the statistics yet. It seems like you're just playing Devil's Advocate for the sake of it.

[Michieltjuhh]

9 minutes ago, Roxefeller said:

LOL WoW Arena PvP. What a joke. I'm Ssilentsmall, Ice mage on #1 2v2 team in Season 1. Nothing special and arenas have become even more of a joke with every following season.

In regards to your first sentence: You still fail to grasp the concept of spending time learning how to beat a class rather than bitching on forums about balance.

It's the only other MMORPG that I know of that's actually become an eSport at some point. Season 1 was also widely regarded as the worst season combined with season 5. Pretty similar to the imbalance we face right now in Blade & Soul. In fact, I have compared Blade & Soul's current balancing in EU/NA to World of Warcraft's arena release (season 1) before.

[Cogbyrn]

1 minute ago, Michieltjuhh said:

I don't feel entitled to a thing. I know I'm bad at something when I am and I can tell when my opponents make mistakes easily aswell. I know for a fact I'm nowhere near the level of play in here as I am in certain other games, that could be due to the latency issues that also need to be fixed but I doubt that. That doesn't mean I have no idea about the balance. Both statistics, top players and the general populous claims that Summoners and Blade Dancers are broken. From personal experience, I claim the same. You've barely done PvP and haven't even looked at the statistics yet. It seems like you're just playing Devil's Advocate for the sake of it.

 

And if Summoners are actually OP.  What then?  Does that mean you can feel better about not trying, quitting, complaining, etc.?  You can come here and say that NCSoft has to fix the problem, or you'll go to a different game?  The next new perfectly balanced game that has no issues?

 

I don't think NCSoft comes to these forums to figure out how to balance their game.  Maybe they do, but I haven't seen any indication to show that.  And I haven't seen a single person discuss what about Summoner is OP, what should be change, and how that balances them against all match-ups.

 

So fine.  Let's say Summoners are OP.  Now what?  What's your next move?  What should change?  Or is that NCSoft's job?

 

People are trying so hard to try to prove something that allows them to quit gracefully.  That's all I see around here.

[Hoopla]

It is a fact that SMN, DES, LBD are the strongest classes in PvP atm. Anyone who says otherwise probably main the said classes and are just butthurt because people call them out for playing an easy class. That is not to say that they are unbeatable or broken OP to the point where it causes huge imbalance, but the fact that they require less effort to play for the pay off compared to other classes does not change.

 

All we can do is wait for lvl 50 and get all our HM skills unlocked. 

[Michieltjuhh]

21 minutes ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

And if Summoners are actually OP.  What then?  Does that mean you can feel better about not trying, quitting, complaining, etc.?  You can come here and say that NCSoft has to fix the problem, or you'll go to a different game?  The next new perfectly balanced game that has no issues?

 

I don't think NCSoft comes to these forums to figure out how to balance their game.  Maybe they do, but I haven't seen any indication to show that.  And I haven't seen a single person discuss what about Summoner is OP, what should be change, and how that balances them against all match-ups.

 

So fine.  Let's say Summoners are OP.  Now what?  What's your next move?  What should change?  Or is that NCSoft's job?

 

People are trying so hard to try to prove something that allows them to quit gracefully.  That's all I see around here.

I never said a thing about not trying. I was one of the first Blade Masters to reach 1600+. That doesn't mean I can't complain. The two aren't exclusive.

As for what they need to change, that's not my job. It's obviously harder than just saying "nerf this, nerf that". If they nerf Blade Dancers and Summoners now, perhaps KFM suddenly becomes the new OP. A good start would've been not buffing the Summoner's healing and giving Blade Dancers the Destroyer treatment. No buffs, a few small nerfs, while buffing the classes that need it.

Edit: I do actually have a few quality-of-life improvements to think of for both anyway. Allow the use of Reversal against the cat (and make it reliable) so people have more than 1 (or not even 1) escape against the cat sitting on you (the ability every class has to break out of grapple/grip when used at the right time). Don't allow the cat to CC people with 100% evasion (breaking air combos while people are defenseless against the cat's CC in return). Reduce their healing back to what it was before. Remove defense penetration on atleast one of their skills. Remove their movement speed increase while in stealth. Increase the cast time on resurrecting the cat (more aimed at Tag Match).

Make Reversal more reliable against Blade Dancers, rather than the coin toss it is right now. Remove defense penetration on Blade Dancer's Soaring Falcon so they actually run out of focus for a change. Relying on Iframes alone doesn't work. Reduce the range on the talented Anklebiter back to 3 meters. Increase the cooldown on Take Flight to 24 seconds and force them to talent it to 18 like Blade Masters have to. Increase the cooldown on Guardian Tempest to 45 seconds or even 1 minute when talented to heal.

Plenty of minor changes they can do.

[TakunDes]

Since it will probably takes a year before we get full access to legendary skills which balanced the game. Im rolling a Sum right now i gotta say that heal is really overpowered. you can heal back to full health non stop from your pet while you use F to heal your pet while he fights.

 

rinse and repeat you can never die in any match no wonder alot of people been playing this class.

 

i would recommend people to play Sum if you are looking for a overpowered class right now. they get the best legendary skill from Rumble bee + sun flower which adds some big dmg while all other classes gets crappy legendary skills

[Zooks]

45 minutes ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

And if Summoners are actually OP.  What then?  Does that mean you can feel better about not trying, quitting, complaining, etc.?  You can come here and say that NCSoft has to fix the problem, or you'll go to a different game?  The next new perfectly balanced game that has no issues?

 

I don't think NCSoft comes to these forums to figure out how to balance their game.  Maybe they do, but I haven't seen any indication to show that.  And I haven't seen a single person discuss what about Summoner is OP, what should be change, and how that balances them against all match-ups.

 

So fine.  Let's say Summoners are OP.  Now what?  What's your next move?  What should change?  Or is that NCSoft's job?

 

People are trying so hard to try to prove something that allows them to quit gracefully.  That's all I see around here.

 

I don't think many people are threatening to quit because Summoners are OP. They're venting and looking for a bit of validation like they do in every single PVP game i.e. "I hear ya bro, they're annoying as fk." Then comes along Mr. Statistics and data pissing on their parade. "Well actually if you took statistics in school, you'd know this is statistically insignificant hurf durf data points hurf durf."

 

It's the job of the developer to balance the game. I'm pretty sure there's a CM reading these forums, and I think it's a pretty safe bet that someone at NCSoft is looking at metrics. All we can do is try to beat them, and wait for future balance patches. They're not going to get nerfed anytime soon because patches are dependent on KR and they haven't gotten nerfed there, but they're also playing a different game than we are. 

[Roxefeller]

1 hour ago, Hoopla said:

It is a fact that SMN, DES, LBD are the strongest classes in PvP atm. Anyone who says otherwise probably main the said classes and are just butthurt because people call them out for playing an easy class. That is not to say that they are unbeatable or broken OP to the point where it causes huge imbalance, but the fact that they require less effort to play for the pay off compared to other classes does not change.

 

All we can do is wait for lvl 50 and get all our HM skills unlocked. 

I main a KFM and no, those are not the "strongest" classes. They're the most played because of this perceived "brokenness" label that the community (low rated players) has placed on them. They're easy to play. This game takes skill as it takes skill to overcome these easy to play FoTM classes.

 

EDIT: Also in regards to taking "less effort". When you reach ratings that actually matter (ie Diamond).. No it does not take less effort. It takes just as much effort as other classes to beat someone with equal/higher skill than yourself.

[voodooblade]

3 hours ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

That's exactly what I'm talking about.  You stop at 1 data point because it conveniently supports the idea you want to believe.  There's no questioning the data, no examining other ideas, and no questioning whether the amount of data we have is inconclusive.  Just a hard-stop at 1 set of numbers.

 

All I see is that Summoners are the most popular.

 

 

Data is always infallible and factual when you twist it to tell the story you want it to tell.  Just because there are numbers on the screen doesn't mean you've been justified.  Even numbers are up for interpretation.  If you aren't open to different interpretations, then you have no business handling numbers or jumping to conclusions.

 

Yet the other side has nothing but there feelings. So should I lean toward "I feel this" or should I lean towards "I feel this, because of this stat/data." I believe the latter makes a more logical, compelling argument. Of course if the numbers are wonky you could prove it. By posting counter numbers, example post the first year seasons worth of Data from Korea.  After all by your defense there should be a vast number of BM on that Rooster. 

 

Oh and before you do heads up, the data reflects this data strongly.  You should learn what percentages are, and how they pertain to statistics before being a Pseudo intellectual and trying to derail an intelligent defense for once, with nothing but your unguided, unfounded, undefended ramblings.