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FM WON


Shukran

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1 minute ago, Vecejj said:

I read everything except that one post which I read half of, not much of a valid argument you have there. Can we stay on topic please instead of bickering, discuss balance, fm, tournaments god knows just enough of this bs, not getting us anywhere. 

 

His arguments were on topic though.

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3 hours ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

Actually, in this game, yes.  That person is doing something others are clearly not, and it is working.  I wish that site more clearly illustrated who played which class, but this one of those instances where, if someone is making it work, then in some fashion it works and can be made to work.  If you personally are performing worse, then it is because you are worse.

 

Sure, some additional skill points and whatever else will go a long way I'm sure to giving certain classes more options and bring them more up to "par" with other classes that already have most of their good options.  But most of these balance discussions are just used as crutches because players refuse to think that they need to get better.

 

Because heck, when the game patches and your rating increases, it's because you *deserved* it, not because you were carried by the game to the next plateau that will assuredly result in more complaining.

I can't speak for all of course, but in my case I keep pointing out FM is among the weakest currently.

I don't have any point beyond that, I don't think them being weakest matters in PvP as of right now, when everyone is terrible at the game it to me isn't really any point in making excuses other than lack of skill.

 

But it really bothers me that people won't acknowledge that there is a difference, if this difference is irrelevant due to the impact of skill then do argue that by all means, but to completely deny there is an imbalance at all feels very unfair from how I see it.

 

And for your last part there, it would be because they deserved it AND because the game change got them up there, they don't really exclude it each other so it isn't "either/or"

If you have been pushed to a lower rating than you should be at due to a disadvantage, then when that disadvantage is taken away and you reach the rating that more accurately displays your skill level, you have reached the point you were deserving.

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33 minutes ago, Enamour said:

 

His arguments were on topic though.

 

22 minutes ago, ssolitude said:

I can't speak for all of course, but in my case I keep pointing out FM is among the weakest currently.

I don't have any point beyond that, I don't think them being weakest matters in PvP as of right now, when everyone is terrible at the game it to me isn't really any point in making excuses other than lack of skill.

 

But it really bothers me that people won't acknowledge that there is a difference, if this difference is irrelevant due to the impact of skill then do argue that by all means, but to completely deny there is an imbalance at all feels very unfair from how I see it.

 

And for your last part there, it would be because they deserved it AND because the game change got them up there, they don't really exclude it each other so it isn't "either/or"

If you have been pushed to a lower rating than you should be at due to a disadvantage, then when that disadvantage is taken away and you reach the rating that more accurately displays your skill level, you have reached the point you were deserving.

He hit the nail on the head, nothing more to it. 

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Madoshi is an exception to the rule. Your thread is pointless. Fms require a lot of work and skill, and are not an easy mode like scummoners at all. Btw,Jaesung mentioned that he plays FM only during tournaments because it is weak even at level 50. 

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1 hour ago, amorent said:

Madoshi is an exception to the rule. Your thread is pointless. Fms require a lot of work and skill, and are not an easy mode like scummoners at all. Btw,Jaesung mentioned that he plays FM only during tournaments because it is weak even at level 50. 

Because summoners win so many tournaments! Oh wait they don't. Summoner may be ez to play and get to gold, but they have so many bad match ups.

 

Though I don't really disagree with the idea that FM is a bit weak in that they require a lot more skill to get to the same level of the other derpy classes.

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That's the thing with games such as these, you need to compare players in different classes in same skill tier. How much effort is required to get to the same level and who has the upper hand once the players are on the same level?

 

Also I think part of the problem is that some classes have issues with the high ping we currently have in arena... maybe it will look better once they fix that?

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every FM srub whining on this thread, should post his matches played in arena. i bet they have like 30-40 matches played.

 

as i stated, learn to play guys.

 

if game was easy it would be already dead.

 

spend your time and effort improving in game, your skill on forum is already capped.

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By any standards i have not mastered FM yet, its my first and only character so far in bns, so i do not even know other characters and the things they can do yet but i have had pretty good experiences with pvp as FM, first i didnt even know about combos but few days ago actually, got couple easy stun combos on and its huge difference already, those aerials are bit difficult for me but i am practicing them.

 

Here is few fights i been so far https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWas45-3eYH5iDfnCbi5S6Q/videos

 

Last tree fights are quite different than earlier since i didnt know about stun combos and importance of ice stance, i still need to figure out how to manage things better and learn to time others counters and so on but all in all FM is whole allot of fun so far. + Next update will give us more skill points to spend and that can totally change things for better even.

 

 

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9 hours ago, ssolitude said:

I can't speak for all of course, but in my case I keep pointing out FM is among the weakest currently.

I don't have any point beyond that, I don't think them being weakest matters in PvP as of right now, when everyone is terrible at the game it to me isn't really any point in making excuses other than lack of skill.

 

But it really bothers me that people won't acknowledge that there is a difference, if this difference is irrelevant due to the impact of skill then do argue that by all means, but to completely deny there is an imbalance at all feels very unfair from how I see it.

 

And for your last part there, it would be because they deserved it AND because the game change got them up there, they don't really exclude it each other so it isn't "either/or"

If you have been pushed to a lower rating than you should be at due to a disadvantage, then when that disadvantage is taken away and you reach the rating that more accurately displays your skill level, you have reached the point you were deserving.

 

You don't think FM being the weakest matters, but it bothers you when people won't acknowledge it?  Why is something that doesn't effectively matter part of something else that bothers you?  Anyone who tries to argue that the game is perfectly balanced is delusional, because nothing is ever perfectly balanced.  Why let it get to you?  People are going to be unfair all the time in everything, and I doubt those who are delusional enough to think everything is perfectly balanced are going to suddenly say "oh, yeah, you're right".  It's a bit of a losing battle.

 

I actually think many are arguing "Any Given Sunday" balance, where in the right hands played correctly, each class could potentially win against each other class if you play your cards right.  Maybe some classes have to play their cards "more right" than another, but since perfect balance is a bit of a pipe dream, I think that's acceptable.  Trying to point out that one class has to play better than another just looks like an excuse to many, and this community is already overflowing with emotional complaints.  Like if you were playing something like a Texas Hold'em tournament, and you tried to point out to everyone that the hands you were dealt were consistently worse than everyone else's.  Some might nod, but if they hear it again and again, wouldn't they eventually just be like "Dude, I get it, but it doesn't matter.  Sometimes you just have to bluff better or something.  That's just how things  happen sometimes".  Even if someone is dealt a better hand, they are beatable, and that's what really matters.  

 

And here's my point about deserving ratings:  how in the world do you determine where someone "should" be in the ratings?  Let's say a summoner is at a 2000 rating.  Where *should* he be?  An FM is at a 1900 rating.  Where *should* he be?  Is it not just class that dictates the +/- for someone?  What other measures do you use?  I don't know of any way to say with any certainty where anyone at all should be in the ratings.  I don't know how you can quantify effort, will-power, research, mentality, mechanical skill, latency, and class balance nuances into a single number, and if you can't do that, then there is no "well he deserved to be higher".  You don't know for sure where he "deserves" to be, because there's no way to know.  So any increase is just a factor of the game adjusting to move you higher.

 

When you climb in the ratings from where you were, or from a plateau, in a constant game state, then you deserve it.  Nothing has changed, but your rating has gone up, so you put something more into your gameplay.  If you happened to go from 56k to Gigabit internet and your rating goes up, there's an argument to be made that, all other things constant, you were buoyed up by your new internet.  But without having a way to measure where you aught to be, you can't really say anyone deserves anything.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

You don't think FM being the weakest matters, but it bothers you when people won't acknowledge it?  Why is something that doesn't effectively matter part of something else that bothers you?  Anyone who tries to argue that the game is perfectly balanced is delusional, because nothing is ever perfectly balanced.  Why let it get to you?  People are going to be unfair all the time in everything, and I doubt those who are delusional enough to think everything is perfectly balanced are going to suddenly say "oh, yeah, you're right".  It's a bit of a losing battle.

 

I actually think many are arguing "Any Given Sunday" balance, where in the right hands played correctly, each class could potentially win against each other class if you play your cards right.  Maybe some classes have to play their cards "more right" than another, but since perfect balance is a bit of a pipe dream, I think that's acceptable.  Trying to point out that one class has to play better than another just looks like an excuse to many, and this community is already overflowing with emotional complaints.  Like if you were playing something like a Texas Hold'em tournament, and you tried to point out to everyone that the hands you were dealt were consistently worse than everyone else's.  Some might nod, but if they hear it again and again, wouldn't they eventually just be like "Dude, I get it, but it doesn't matter.  Sometimes you just have to bluff better or something.  That's just how things  happen sometimes".  Even if someone is dealt a better hand, they are beatable, and that's what really matters.  

 

And here's my point about deserving ratings:  how in the world do you determine where someone "should" be in the ratings?  Let's say a summoner is at a 2000 rating.  Where *should* he be?  An FM is at a 1900 rating.  Where *should* he be?  Is it not just class that dictates the +/- for someone?  What other measures do you use?  I don't know of any way to say with any certainty where anyone at all should be in the ratings.  I don't know how you can quantify effort, will-power, research, mentality, mechanical skill, latency, and class balance nuances into a single number, and if you can't do that, then there is no "well he deserved to be higher".  You don't know for sure where he "deserves" to be, because there's no way to know.  So any increase is just a factor of the game adjusting to move you higher.

 

When you climb in the ratings from where you were, or from a plateau, in a constant game state, then you deserve it.  Nothing has changed, but your rating has gone up, so you put something more into your gameplay.  If you happened to go from 56k to Gigabit internet and your rating goes up, there's an argument to be made that, all other things constant, you were buoyed up by your new internet.  But without having a way to measure where you aught to be, you can't really say anyone deserves anything.

 

 

It bothers me because it is incorrect, people being consistently inaccurate when they should know better is just annoying to me.

That is why I said their arguements should be that the imbalances that exist doesn't matter for the competitive aspect of PvP, because that would be significantly more accurate.

 

Balance is about equal playing field despite class preferance, people shouldn't use balance in their arguements if they just want to convey that one class is capable of beating another class. Chess would be an example where one side is still fully capable of beating the other side, despite a disadvantage, but noone ever argues in chess that white vs black is balanced. Though that game is considered balanced due to both players playing both sides, which is something not practical in BnS.

 

As for rating, if a major buff for a class comes, and as a result players of this class jump in rating, it is because they were at a lower rating than they should have been or in other words at a lower rating than they deserved.

Likewise if players of a class that receives a major nerf suddenly drop in ratings, it means they were higher than they should have or again higher than they deserved to be for their skill level.

 

People don't deserve their new rank any less because it came after a buff to their class, the only difficult part of determining if someone deserve more or less rating than they have, is determining which classes are the low tier ones and which are the high tier ones.

 

But again, like in our current patch BM and FM are both considered weak, as evident from the fact they will have a bigger power gain from new patch than other classes. And at least in the case of FM, they are still not considered top tier in that patch.

 

When there are cases like that, you can say players are deserving of a higher rating, e.g. it is very likely that BM and FM players will rise significantly in rating once the patch hits, and that new rating is far more accurate of what they deserve, due to the new patch being more balanced.

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8 minutes ago, ssolitude said:

It bothers me because it is incorrect, people being consistently inaccurate when they should know better is just annoying to me.

That is why I said their arguements should be that the imbalances that exist doesn't matter for the competitive aspect of PvP, because that would be significantly more accurate.

 

Balance is about equal playing field despite class preferance, people shouldn't use balance in their arguements if they just want to convey that one class is capable of beating another class. Chess would be an example where one side is still fully capable of beating the other side, despite a disadvantage, but noone ever argues in chess that white vs black is balanced. Though that game is considered balanced due to both players playing both sides, which is something not practical in BnS.

 

As for rating, if a major buff for a class comes, and as a result players of this class jump in rating, it is because they were at a lower rating than they should have been or in other words at a lower rating than they deserved.

Likewise if players of a class that receives a major nerf suddenly drop in ratings, it means they were higher than they should have or again higher than they deserved to be for their skill level.

 

People don't deserve their new rank any less because it came after a buff to their class, the only difficult part of determining if someone deserve more or less rating than they have, is determining which classes are the low tier ones and which are the high tier ones.

 

But again, like in our current patch BM and FM are both considered weak, as evident from the fact they will have a bigger power gain from new patch than other classes. And at least in the case of FM, they are still not considered top tier in that patch.

 

When there are cases like that, you can say players are deserving of a higher rating, e.g. it is very likely that BM and FM players will rise significantly in rating once the patch hits, and that new rating is far more accurate of what they deserve, due to the new patch being more balanced.

 

Haha, people being inaccurate/incorrect when they should know better annoys me too, but I think because I've immersed myself in so many MMOs, my senses are dulled/numbed for gaming communities.  Politics are what really annoy me these days, especially the things I have to read about leaders of the country saying/doing (in the USA).  That's probably because I avoid politics though, since they increase my blood pressure exponentially.

 

I appreciate the elaboration about how you feel re: deserving rating, but I just can't say that I agree.  I think from a rating perspective, given current circumstances, everyone reaches wherever they deserve.  When you work hard and hit new heights of combos/countering classes/etc. within the same game version, you now deserve a higher rating, because you've reached out and grabbed it.  I just live more in the present, and I don't think a class being more difficult to get to work well in the arena means that player deserves a higher rating.  Similarly, I don't think a player for a class deemed stronger/easier in the arena deserves a lower rating.  When balance patches hit and balance does a bit of the Kansas City Shuffle, people end up where they deserve when the dust settles.

 

I'm generally against entitlement, so as an FM, I don't think I'm entitled to a higher rating.  I don't really care what my rating is, honestly.  I just want even fights, and you'll get even fights due to the rating system once you settle on a plateau (until everyone around you gets better, or you get better, and the plateau shifts).

 

EDIT - To be clear, I'm not trying to say you're wrong about your opinion on people deserving ratings.  I just don't see things that way.

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