Ambition

Pay2win or not, opinions?

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Ambition   

Okay so let me first start of with saying, i don't mind one single RNG Box but i have a bad feeling more of these boxes with bigger rewards will come in the near future, so that raises the next question.

 

I hear alot of people say : ''for me pay2win means if you can buy items that give you effect/combat stats that you cannot get the normal way ingame''

 

This is true, and i agree but i have a slightly different view on it, for me pay 2 win means, if people can simply buy the items f.e moonwaterstones through the RNG boxes, without having too put the same amount of work and time into your character as the ''normal'' people, in other words I have to spend 4-5 hours everday doing the dailies for 15gold so i can buy the items necessary to upgrade my gear, while a rich person will just buy 100 of those boxes and get a few stones and tons of soulstones and just buys his gear to the max. That is something really annoys me, the aspect i liked about this game is that you have to WORK hard for everything, so when you are maxed out people will look at you and think nice bro!  that gets completely taken away with these boxes.. meh

 

What do you guys think? i know there are more topics about this, not trying to hate but it really gives me a bad taste, i understand they need to make money, but there are more ways that lead to Rome. ;)

Edited by Ambition

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Not pay 2 win for me. Convenience. 

 

I will get my gear without spending money. Might take me longer, but hey, that is my choice. 

 

I dont have to keep up with all the extreme players out there (that either buy the stuff I farm for or farm 24/7). It does not interfere with my gameplay experience, and I can get all they have.

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My standard of p2w comes from playing some simplistic korean grindfest mmo's. Title's such as Flyff and Rappelz, I enjoyed those games as a kid most likely due to their simplicity. Those games charge players for item upgrade protection, people spend hundreds or even thousands of euro's on just getting one gear set to the max upgrade stat. Which made you a lot stronger then casual plebs. Having somewhat more exp and extra currency gain is far from p2w in my eyes.

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Trinket   

And then with their maxed out gear, what are they going to do?

 

PvP doesn't factor in the stats.

Faction war is just one big orgy of skill spamming.

Dungeons - anyone can run them, and the gear only adds a bit more to the DPS.

 

Everyone's going to catch up, so, you're just buying to cut down on play time?

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Shukran   

even if they put €10 for a moonstone it wont be p2w. because you wont get any REALadvantage to the game.

ofc you will skip a lot of stuff to do to get it. so it is pay to speed up.

Edited by Shukran

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Dowra   

I think people confuse pay to win, with pay to finish faster.

There are Keys that help you get your weapon faster. You wont "win" from buying the key.   You just have to put out more effort if you dont.

 

 

I dont mind gachas.  Some of them are great, if its giving out decent items as a good price.  ( no point it getting the gacha with clothing items being untradeable imo butt)

 

I dont even understand how its scummy,   Youre paying for a /chance/ to get any item listed.  Just dont buy if, if it isnt worth the price.

Edited by Dowra

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In my experience, it's not pay2win... not yet, anyway, who knows where the game is going to go.

So far, things people can buy on the market that affect the character's stats can be obtained by playing the game. Upgrading with Moonwater Stones certainly is a hassle, however you can either craft it or buy it (At level 45, practically 1-2 days, I just do Blackram Supply 24-man dallies everyday, just around half an hour to one hour depending on your party or boss spawn bad luck, damn you Dagul), however as I saw prices dropping in the Market, eventually it'd be 1 Moonwater/day of Supply Fleet dailies (or less), most people wouldn't find this annoying at all, in my opinion.

On the RNG side, I've been pretty lucky, all my breakthrough weapons drop within 10 chest opening, most appears within 5 times, I even got some first/second tries... meanwhile I saw in Faction chat there are a few who said they've opened upwards 50 chests... So.... good luck to you.

 

In short, in my opinion the game is quite fair at the moment on the stat side, cosmetics real money is completely understandable, even if I really want some of those outfits (Maybe I do secretly desire them to be cheaper at least, making them free would push them to go for more extreme methods, which I would love to hate).

Personally I would start considering it P2W if players can beat players by paying... but PVP Arena normalise stats, unless they for some reasons make it in a way that paying players kick free players out of dungeons, then I believe it's fine.

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as long as you can't buy a gem or weapon that adds +50 attack power to your stats in the cash shop i'll keep thinking this game isn't p2w

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Draka   

Pay2Win implies that... you know... you actually win something. What do you win here? You don't get access to items that are not available to anyone else, you just get the same stuff a bit faster. Which also depends on your luck because judging by posts on reddit of people buying 50 or 100 of these boxes, don't think that you will be swimming in Moonwater trans stones and soulstones, barely get for an upgrade of a single item by what I can see. The rest is unsealing charms and keys which I doubt anyone has problems getting without paying hundreds of $/EUR. These items don't give you any advantage whatsoever, let alone allow you to win something. Irrelevant in the arena and irrelevant in OW PvP since no such thing exists, it's just a zergfest that happens only in a single location. On top of that this will drastically lower the prices on the market which will probably *cricket* off ppl who craft a lot but it will make it easier for non paying players to get the mats way cheaper than before.

 

EDIT: Seriously? *cricket* off because "p_i_s_s off" is somehow offensive?

Edited by Draka

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teliks   

I would say this is pay for convenience. Pay to win in my opinion is if they have item that people have to pay that gave them advantages over people and there is no way of obtaining said item in game. That is all.

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I don't think the people complaining understand what it even means. BnS seems like a pretty even game. Apart from cosmetics all you can buy is convenience and a bypass of RNG if you want to. I can pay to open a single box or not pay and take my chances but the destination is the same.

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HurbY   

Still i dont think this is pay2win.


But actually it does worry me because it looks to me they are trying how far they can go.

If they take the next step further, I might reconsider staying for this game, but i really hope they dont go further and keep it convenience/cosmetics.

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AttacKat   
48 minutes ago, Ambition said:

I hear alot of people say : ''for me pay2win means if you can buy items that give you effect/combat stats that you cannot get the normal way ingame''

...

That is something really annoys me, the aspect i liked about this game is that you have to WORK hard for everything, so when you are maxed out people will look at you and think nice bro!  that gets completely taken away with these boxes.. meh

 

Sorry buddy, times have changes, hence method for devs to earn money also changes with it.

 

Gone are the days where you either buy the software for $50-75, or that $15-20/mo subs w/o BOTS/RMTs. Here to stay are F2P, but yet, the devs cannot do this out of thin air and must make money somehow. So how? Fairest approach, is stretch out the grind, either by low XP gain, or super low RNG endgame drops (aka FF14 ARR). The devs then can sell items to speed up the process like what you see here. Premium gets $$ drops, +20%, +40% XP gain, etc, or RNG item on sale in cash shop (brilliant key).

 

This creates two class of players, those with a lot of time (yourself), and those who has the money, enjoys the game, but do also need to work for a living (most premium members), So instead of spending 4-8 hrs to get what I need, I now only need to spend ~15 mins, get that chest, buy the brilliant key, and get the class weapon I need to move on.

 

Am I pay to win? No. I paid to speed up the process. but that line at the end of the race (lvl cap), is the same for both you and me. You play 8 hrs a day and move 2 steps forward while I pay $$ to get to the same spot.

 

When I am able to buy an item from the cash shop that is better then any in game item that you cannot obtain, then it becomes P2W.

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It's hard to be Pay2Win in this game because so much of it is based on skill. So far, the extent of even being pay 2 win would be that you can upgrade your weapon and accessories faster than others, thus being able to "win" in OWPvP or PvE. However, since BnS has so much emphasis on your skill, even in PvE, just having an upgraded weapon, while it certainly helps, does not necessarily equal a "win" in PvP or PvE.

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Mekusa   

It's not pay to win I don't think. I can't speak for others but why I don't like them is it locks a pay item behind a luck wall. I don't like the outfit they have in this one but I know in time there will be one that I do want and I can spend a crazy amount and never get it. People say it's only cosmetic don't get up in arms but for me that's why I play the cosmetics. If it was subscription time was only in RNG boxes or skill tabs or something they did want I'm guessing they would have a different outlook on it. I never mind the real money part like the one for 1 year sub. I never said a thing about it but if all I wanted was all the outfits free I would have. I just want them to not depend on luck.

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Moggie   

If anything, they're essentially paying money to NOT play the game. It would be like a game store giving away games for free, but you have the option to give them fifty bucks to get nothing instead. So don't feel too bad. If anything, the ones that are NOT partaking in those sales are the ones winning.

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While these RNG boxes are definitely a scummy business model, they aren't quite pay to win since min/maxed stats have no real endgame benefit at this point. You can still acquire all the gear they have, it'll just take a few days. They're paying for a convenience. This becomes pay to win-- for me at least-- if they make it so you can only unlock your top tier hongmoon skills through the Cash Shop. Or they make the in-game method an ungodly grind in the hopes of persuading you to pay for the items needed with real money.

 

RNG Boxes is a foreboding sign, but not quite there yet, imo.

Edited by BourneEndeavour

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Lifesong   

These new boxes literally give you end game upgrade items. Those upgrade items provide advantages to clearing end game content and make it much easier. If that isn't pay to win what is?

 

If you consider item progression part of the game then these boxes are absolutely pay to win.

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Ambition   
32 minutes ago, AttacKat said:

 

Sorry buddy, times have changes, hence method for devs to earn money also changes with it.

 

Gone are the days where you either buy the software for $50-75, or that $15-20/mo subs w/o BOTS/RMTs. Here to stay are F2P, but yet, the devs cannot do this out of thin air and must make money somehow. So how? Fairest approach, is stretch out the grind, either by low XP gain, or super low RNG endgame drops (aka FF14 ARR). The devs then can sell items to speed up the process like what you see here. Premium gets $$ drops, +20%, +40% XP gain, etc, or RNG item on sale in cash shop (brilliant key).

 

This creates two class of players, those with a lot of time (yourself), and those who has the money, enjoys the game, but do also need to work for a living (most premium members), So instead of spending 4-8 hrs to get what I need, I now only need to spend ~15 mins, get that chest, buy the brilliant key, and get the class weapon I need to move on.

 

Am I pay to win? No. I paid to speed up the process. but that line at the end of the race (lvl cap), is the same for both you and me. You play 8 hrs a day and move 2 steps forward while I pay $$ to get to the same spot.

 

When I am able to buy an item from the cash shop that is better then any in game item that you cannot obtain, then it becomes P2W.

Thats not the point, i have a good job i could buy hundreds of boxes but im not foolish enough to fall for this kind of ''sellout'' my point is that people can get to the same point, without making the same hard effort, you don't have to work for your gear.

 

Also i dont really see how this benefits ''f2p'' players, F.E i usually sell my 19 soulstones every day so i get a good amount of gold (6/7G per run) now with the RNG boxes the price of soulstones are dropping drastically, which makes it even harder for ''us'' to gain gold and we all know what a complete joke that allready is at the moment, so i dont know, i just cba anymore. High ''risk'' > low reward, not a big fan of it.

 

I really hope the next update gives like 1G for each daily quest to compensate. :) thanks for your 2 cents though.

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Naunet   
3 minutes ago, Lifesong said:

These new boxes literally give you end game upgrade items. Those upgrade items provide advantages to clearing end game content and make it much easier. If that isn't pay to win what is?

 

If you consider item progression part of the game then these boxes are absolutely pay to win.

 

Agreed.

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