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Pay2win or not, opinions?


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47 minutes ago, Silmaria said:

I don't think it is similar, RNG box is a lottery type instead of a fixed price to get a costume and usually lottery would make more profits.

 

Currency exchange on other hand is fixed type to exchange for ingame currency from players.

 

One is lottery from game company for more profits while others is a fixed prices exchange with no gambling at all.

 

Well you kind off missed whole point what i was making ill try again. Its not about how they work but more who does it.

 

When NCsoft sells these rngboxes they're generating new items to game. In this case its costumes / crafting / evolving materials. With this idea they try to sell these boxes to as many as they can those who want to make ingame gold and those who want to get costume. But at the same time they generate huge amounts of materials and crush economy even more.

 

Currency exchange. Well with this money just switches place. Its pretty much always someone who has worked for that money and they dont generate more gold to servers.

 

It would be same thing if NCsoft directly sold gold.

 

Did you get my point ? But you're right too its that rngboxes are just lottery or more like gambling and they're most retarded ever if they contains costumes p2w elements and stuff like that. They screwed up with this

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37 minutes ago, Silmaria said:

I just hope you are able to pay premium for years to come. When Black Desert and Tree of Savior out, I will move there and maybe checking on this game updates. (Sigh, still have 20k gems in Guild Wars 2 and barely anything worth to spend on).

 

Remember, this game is PvP game, without players, good luck enjoy the game. Seen your type in Age of BULLSHIT, first to quit the game and the server has such low population that most PvP events wouldn't have enough players to even be enjoyable.

Where dafuq blade soul is pvp game ? are u dumb ? this game is pve, good now i found one pvp carebear XD 

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11 hours ago, Ninfu said:

 

This is true and not true. P2W can also be defined to allow players instantly get strongest gear without any effort or with extremely minimal effort like now they can get in BnS.

 

Lets take BnS because we're talking about this game and thread is about it.

Currently i've no data from anyone else than myself so i use myself example and pls remember while this game been out few weeks now my played hours is lot more like +150hours so this gives better indicator than in few weeks and also pls remember that almost every mmorpg i've ever played i've been able to make tons of money and find ways to have steadi income and never been struggling with gold. So lets get started

 

So it took me like 125 hours get all my staff fully upgraded to last stage and now im just saving what ever i can for next patch and upgrade my stuff there. So in next patch ill be able to do things bit faster due this fact but players who havent played this much it will take bit more extra time.

 

So now lets look what those RNGboxes NCsoft does. Well first of all players are able to get everything important to fully evolve their weapons to max and if enough boxes are bought they can even get materials for next patch which means they're left with farming breakthrough weapons and new materials which they can buy from market with profits they're now making with this rngbox cricket..

 

To evolve from awekened infernal to true siren it takes only them to farm few epic weapons from game so it takes 1-5 runs for players get weapon from each version of poharan.

So total time spent 1-2hours getting weapons and rest can be bought from auction house with profits. So instead of playing the game and spending time in it players can now just instantly buy their way which is called P2W ofc everyone who doesnt spent any money can still get same weapon but it will take 10-100 times longer which cannot anymore be justified with pay to convience argument.

 

Then we come to next point. Lets now just assume someone spent thousands of those boxes. That player will have all the materials he needs to level up hongmoon weapon to last stage and even after that player has almost more than enough either start legendary weapon or fully upgrade it with minimal effor where it should take months of hard work and not just indirectly buying it from store.

 

Also another downside of this is economy is much worse state now than it was before and it will keep crashing.

One point is that if player really liked about that costume and wanted it player could be spending hundreds of euros / dollars for trying and not getting it

 

I'll be the first one to tell you that I hate people paying to bypass time walls.  It still is not paying to win by the definition of the term.

 

Here is the thing.  Those people that like to bypass the paywalls don't stick around long.  They come in drop a lot of money then leave as they have nothing to work for.  The person that does that will only come around during patches and then leave a couple months after.  

 

Currently (pay attention to that word) we do not have anything that is a true pay to win.  We have what is classified as pay for convinience (xp boosts fall under this category as well as keys to in game loot boxes) that will help you bypass the RNG of the game.  You still will have the same things in the end but you have options on how you go about getting there with the same end result.  

 

Should NCwest/NCsoft ever put something in the store that gives you any kind of statistical advantage (better skills, higher stats, etc) over someone in game that cannot be gotten in game, then yes we will have pay2win.  We do not have anything in the store that does this (currently).  No game has ever broken into the e-sports arena with this implemented.  Those games tend to be toxic and shunned by the gaming community.  (Look at Perfect World for reference).

 

Now yes you can make the argument that the lootboxes they just implemented that it is just the beginning but we don't knwo that.  It will only depend on the communities reaction to them.  I've seen first hand that the chances in that box are not in the buyers best interest.  But that is my own opinion on them as I won't be buying anymore of them (never seem to have much luck with them in the first place).

 

On the game economy...well...those tend to flucuate to begin with and as this game just came out it is still in its infancy.  Talking about it tanking when this game has not been out a month is rather idiotic as until things become stable the market will continue to be volitile.  (Side Note:  The market will always be volitile when new things come into the store as then something new becomes top selling item and others will drop or become more rare)

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honestly speaking as long as it doesnt actually give them a conceivable edge in game other then they advanced a little faster i personally - no you dont have to agree with me its MY opinion for a reason - dont find it to be pay to win a bit of a shallow move on NCsofts part yes but eh as long as they dont make those rng boxes the mainstay i dont mind so much - that is to say as long as they keep them to very small and NON ESSENTIAL items that while it would be convenient to buy but not needed to buy i dont feel its pay to win under these specific circumstances = praying it stays just to this extent  as any further and itll make other things that people currently do pay for feel less worth it

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19 minutes ago, capncronic365 said:

honestly speaking as long as it doesnt actually give them a conceivable edge in game other then they advanced a little faster i personally - no you dont have to agree with me its MY opinion for a reason - dont find it to be pay to win a bit of a shallow move on NCsofts part yes but eh as long as they dont make those rng boxes the mainstay i dont mind so much - that is to say as long as they keep them to very small and NON ESSENTIAL items that while it would be convenient to buy but not needed to buy i dont feel its pay to win under these specific circumstances = praying it stays just to this extent  as any further and itll make other things that people currently do pay for feel less worth it

a little faster?

nope

more like a thousand mile faster

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1 hour ago, Zarec said:

 

I'll be the first one to tell you that I hate people paying to bypass time walls.  It still is not paying to win by the definition of the term.

 

Here is the thing.  Those people that like to bypass the paywalls don't stick around long.  They come in drop a lot of money then leave as they have nothing to work for.  The person that does that will only come around during patches and then leave a couple months after.  

 

Currently (pay attention to that word) we do not have anything that is a true pay to win.  We have what is classified as pay for convinience (xp boosts fall under this category as well as keys to in game loot boxes) that will help you bypass the RNG of the game.  You still will have the same things in the end but you have options on how you go about getting there with the same end result.  

 

Should NCwest/NCsoft ever put something in the store that gives you any kind of statistical advantage (better skills, higher stats, etc) over someone in game that cannot be gotten in game, then yes we will have pay2win.  We do not have anything in the store that does this (currently).  No game has ever broken into the e-sports arena with this implemented.  Those games tend to be toxic and shunned by the gaming community.  (Look at Perfect World for reference).

 

Now yes you can make the argument that the lootboxes they just implemented that it is just the beginning but we don't knwo that.  It will only depend on the communities reaction to them.  I've seen first hand that the chances in that box are not in the buyers best interest.  But that is my own opinion on them as I won't be buying anymore of them (never seem to have much luck with them in the first place).

 

On the game economy...well...those tend to flucuate to begin with and as this game just came out it is still in its infancy.  Talking about it tanking when this game has not been out a month is rather idiotic as until things become stable the market will continue to be volitile.  (Side Note:  The market will always be volitile when new things come into the store as then something new becomes top selling item and others will drop or become more rare)

The thing is by this definition, none of the Asian regions of BnS aside from China were P2W either. Which means stuff like the much greater value of Premium of TW for example, because a problem in comparison because NCSoft gave us the false dichotomy of 'we have to do X, or else it will be P2W like other versions.' And a bit later, the strange ass 'pay to win' definition of selling character names. TW offered rare materials, gems and the legendary weapon box in its RNG boxes...however those boxes could be sold on the marketplace to other players, and each one of those items could either be farmed in game, or you could just participate in a game event (roulette, running even dungeons for tokens, etc) to buy the gems without spending a dime.

 

I am starting to vastly prefer TW as the events were fun mini-goals, gave free costumes, and VIP awarded hongmoon points as a reward for logging in and playing on top of the daily dash. And according to many in this thread, isn't even 'P2W.'

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1 hour ago, Rahaya said:

The thing is by this definition, none of the Asian regions of BnS aside from China were P2W either. Which means stuff like the much greater value of Premium of TW for example, because a problem in comparison because NCSoft gave us the false dichotomy of 'we have to do X, or else it will be P2W like other versions.' And a bit later, the strange ass 'pay to win' definition of selling character names. TW offered rare materials, gems and the legendary weapon box in its RNG boxes...however those boxes could be sold on the marketplace to other players, and each one of those items could either be farmed in game, or you could just participate in a game event (roulette, running even dungeons for tokens, etc) to buy the gems without spending a dime.

 

I am starting to vastly prefer TW as the events were fun mini-goals, gave free costumes, and VIP awarded hongmoon points as a reward for logging in and playing on top of the daily dash. And according to many in this thread, isn't even 'P2W.'

 

 

No they weren't pay to win by the definition of the term.  Was it ideal?  Depends on the player to be honest.  I didn't like it myself but that is my own feelings on the matter.  

 

A lot of people like to try and widen the definition of pay2win to include things (like convenience items for instance).  But that is more player bias than anything.  To make something truly pay2win you need to force a player to pay real money to have an advantage over the player that you can only get with real money.  There really is no grey area.  

 

The only way those versions would be pay2win is if you could only get them from the store regardless if you could sell them in game.  You can still only get them for real money.  Tera tried that once and royally pissed off their players (innerwear) and they haven't' changed that for the most part but havent' gone further either.  

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On 2/5/2016 at 1:32 PM, holanicky said:

again you people dont know what you are talking about.

i will link you a video, tell me your skill matters when you meet someone with gear like this, and his gear is not the best.

 

 

 

also, if you check your skill book, you will see a few skills are locked ,

they are acquired from pve content, the item needed to unlock those skills can be bought from AH

 

without those skills certain class can not do well in pvp,

 

for example,

blade master.

if you dont have  Soaring Falcon 5-3, dont bother pvp at lv 50.

 So you are telling me that when in arena your stats are not normalized cause if you are you have never stepped into arena. I said your skill as a player matters and your talent choices matter gear in arena is all normalized i have full duelist shield and you are trying to compare other version of the game to our current na content you cant cause we dont have it or the hongmoon levels yet.

 

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I still think it is p2p:

A premium user at my level can - buy all he needs for upgrades in Market, without doing crafting for hours.
A premium user at my level can - outbid me anytime ina dungeon. 

 

All this comes from the fact he have extra gold Drop That I dont have. If was not tricked into bidding for infernal outfit in Exiles I could have Nearly 2 gold so far, but I imagine that Premiums run with 10 gold or more at lvl 40. I guess I will buy premium If i Don't leave the game b4 that. 

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1 hour ago, Fifi2 said:

I still think it is p2p:

A premium user at my level can - buy all he needs for upgrades in Market, without doing crafting for hours.
A premium user at my level can - outbid me anytime ina dungeon. 

 

All this comes from the fact he have extra gold Drop That I dont have. If was not tricked into bidding for infernal outfit in Exiles I could have Nearly 2 gold so far, but I imagine that Premiums run with 10 gold or more at lvl 40. I guess I will buy premium If i Don't leave the game b4 that. 

no they dont not unless they are selling alot of shit and farming with bots someone who levels straight thru to that point will not have 10g at 40

 

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personally, i don't think it's pay to win/play, yet. pay to win would mean that i would absolutely have to buy cash items in order to progress in the game- and i don't. right now, cash items are purely cosmetic/convenience, not necessities. it takes a little more time to farm certain items, yeah, but i can still get everything i need without spending a dime. so in this case, i think it's more along the lines of paying for convenience/time savers, y'know? something not at all needed, but a little helpful for people who don't want to spend a lot of time grinding for certain things- read: really nice, but not at all necessary. 

 

sidenote: i usually see a lot of people bringing up the gold drop buff premium users have when they talk about p2w things, but i don't think that holds and weight, either? i mean, it's faster to make money that way, sure, but you can still do just fine making gold by selling essences and things like that. i've made a good amount without premium just selling lycan and higher essences in bulk, and i can usually match their bids just fine! ( •̀ᄇ• ́)ﻭ✧ just takes a little more work, is all- still no big deal.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 2/6/2016 at 10:06 PM, holanicky said:

a little faster?

nope

more like a thousand mile faster

thats still entirely irrelevant as it only speeds things up for them it does NOT  give them any tangible means to be more powerful than any other player that has achieved the same level - meaning its in no way really pay to win

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