Pay2win or not, opinions?

[ShadowRose]

Pay to win is paying for stats basically and thats what people dont seem to understand.

 

Basically in a pay to win game you can grind for 1,000 hours have the best in the game and get destroyed by someone who shelled out some money which this game isnt at all.

 

P.S. If you think thats pay to win wait till they add the currency converter that lets people convert ncoins directly to gold soon haha.

[Arcann]

1 minute ago, ShadowRose said:

Pay to win is paying for stats basically and thats what people dont seem to understand.

 

Basically in a pay to win game you can grind for 1,000 hours have the best in the game and get destroyed by someone who shelled out some money which this game isnt at all.

 

P.S. If you think thats pay to win wait till they add the currency converter that lets people convert ncoins directly to gold soon haha.

sup

[gypt]

If this game would have larger scale open world pvp then i would be pissed off by those money bought reward chests but since even arena pvp is balanced so that those itamz do not even matter there, i dont care about those chests that much..

 

What i have read thou that they sort of promised that such things would not come to cash shop and boom there they are, that also worries bit that if we cannot trust a word..

 

I invested 50 something euro already, that is more than what i usually invest on games, bought premium time and some inventory room but thats it for me.

[ShadowRose]

1 minute ago, Arcann said:

sup

 

I saw that shit you sob lmao

 

Take that pic back to korean bns :D

[Arcann]

Just now, ShadowRose said:

 

I saw that shit you sob lmao

 

Take that pic back to korean bns :D

edgy /s

[Silmaria]

9 hours ago, ShadowRose said:

Pay to win is paying for stats basically and thats what people dont seem to understand.

 

Basically in a pay to win game you can grind for 1,000 hours have the best in the game and get destroyed by someone who shelled out some money which this game isnt at all.

 

P.S. If you think thats pay to win wait till they add the currency converter that lets people convert ncoins directly to gold soon haha.

It's not just stats, it's more than that. Time-progression also one way of P2W like in Skyforce, Age of BULLSHIT and more.

 

You are just limiting yourself to think further about how paying to advance would greatly affect the outcomes.

 

Anyway, just wait for Legendary Weapons to come out in this game and see for yourself.

[Zarec]

To the OP...regardless of what you see as pay to win...the definition does not change.  It literally means you pay real money to win.  Do we have that? No not currently.  Regardless of how you feel about the current systems that we have in game, trying to redefine the term pay to win (you would need to change the name of the term) is rather pointless.  

 

Will it go to pay to win eventually?  It is always a possibiility.  But that usually signals the death knell of a game in the US and Europe.  Most players outside of korea do not enjoy those types of games.  That is something the people at NCsoft should take to heart.  If they truly want to break into the e-sports genre, then going that route is not in their best interests (considering no company that does that has broken into the e-sports arena and lasted).

[Zarec]

10 minutes ago, Silmaria said:

It's not just stats, it's more than that. Time-progression also one way of P2W like in Skyforce, Age of BULLSHIT and more.

 

You are just limiting yourself to think further about how paying to advance would greatly affect the outcomes.

 

Anyway, just wait for Legendary Weapons to come out in this game and see for yourself.

 

If you can get them in game as well as the cash shop that is not truly pay2win that is pay for convenience.  Most games have that in some form.  Is it ideal....hell no but sadly that is the way most F2P games tend to go.  

 

I honestly prefer people work for it.  But players whine about not having options and when they have options they still whine so for the developers it is a lose lose situation.

[Silmaria]

2 hours ago, Zarec said:

 

If you can get them in game as well as the cash shop that is not truly pay2win that is pay for convenience.  Most games have that in some form.  Is it ideal....hell no but sadly that is the way most F2P games tend to go.  

 

I honestly prefer people work for it.  But players whine about not having options and when they have options they still whine so for the developers it is a lose lose situation.

Are we having that option now? NO.

 

Most games? Which games? Most games don't have it, few games have it, that's what you failed to understand.

 

Your thinking of P2W is limited, the same way people think Age of BULLSHIT have no P2W until 2 years later and then everyone even an idiot could realize by that time, but before there are plenty of people like you defend it to no end.

 

Look at the way this game currently work, the company makes every efforts to tempt players to buy premium, even exchange market is not even in yet.

 

There are plenty of people like you who think only stats and boosts items are P2W, naive, really naive.

 

Perhaps you should look at some Chinese game companies, they make it looks like not P2W until later when people realize their profits are at the roof, mean while plenty defend them not P2W, laughable at best.

[GreenDestiny]

Look at it this way. If you have a job and disposable income you will probably want to buy stuff and take shortcuts so you don't have to spend time grinding. If you don't have a job you usually have plenty of spare time to farm. Either way it works out okay the problem is when they make stuff so that you have to spend Ncoin to get it or that the odds of earning something in game from farming are so low it drives you nuts.

[Ninfu]

19 hours ago, Ambition said:

Okay so let me first start of with saying, i don't mind one single RNG Box but i have a bad feeling more of these boxes with bigger rewards will come in the near future, so that raises the next question.

 

I hear alot of people say : ''for me pay2win means if you can buy items that give you effect/combat stats that you cannot get the normal way ingame''

 

This is true, and i agree but i have a slightly different view on it, for me pay 2 win means, if people can simply buy the items f.e moonwaterstones through the RNG boxes, without having too put the same amount of work and time into your character as the ''normal'' people, in other words I have to spend 4-5 hours everday doing the dailies for 15gold so i can buy the items necessary to upgrade my gear, while a rich person will just buy 100 of those boxes and get a few stones and tons of soulstones and just buys his gear to the max. That is something really annoys me, the aspect i liked about this game is that you have to WORK hard for everything, so when you are maxed out people will look at you and think nice bro!  that gets completely taken away with these boxes.. meh

 

What do you guys think? i know there are more topics about this, not trying to hate but it really gives me a bad taste, i understand they need to make money, but there are more ways that lead to Rome. ;)

Definition of p2w cannot be only said when items that give player power is only from cash shop otherwise majority so called p2w games would be just called something else like pay to fast or what ever suits term of getting everything with no effort at all.

 

But this is solely my own point of view

 

So how i define p2w is kind of harsh because persoanly i dont like it all if players are capable of buying power with cash. Games are meant to be played and players should work to get their stuff instead of using credit card to obtain it. In terms of BnS im already dissatisfied and dissapointed what Ncsoft did. Not alone that it speeds up getting current gear and next patchs gear to point where it only takes few hours get stuff fully upgraded it allows players get thousands of gold and even get upcoming legendary item with minimal effort.

 

Currently for me it took 2 weeks evolve my stuff to max but im most likely one of extreme cases that had pleasure to play this game a lot and able to make lot of gold which allowed me to speed things up but everything was done solely just playing the game and i was happy getting my stuff this fast with my own hardwork. Now it feels like it was taken away by these boxes because i spent hours and hours and hours making money for my upgrades now player who presses buy p2wboxes can get everything in 1-2 hours.

I cant even imagine how long it will take for players who're playing less than me. Most likely player who plays 2-3 hours per day and is not able to make 50-250gs per day it would take month to get point where im and now when next stage is coming up it will take longer to max their stuff.

 

So how this is not p2w if players can just flash their credit card and ignore almost every element of this game and skip the hard work?

If it was case of players obtaining upgrades 1min to 5-10 hours faster then i might not be dissapointed about this but now it literally takes away every other step other than just getting weapons lootbox from dungeon and use their blue keys which they obtained from those boxes. So its even faster because everything player gets from that box is used to speed things up and make it almost no effort at all. Instead of spending that +50-100 hours getting everything ready they spent less than 3 hours now if they just buy boxes.

 

Solely because of that im saying this is p2w.

 

Some might now argue about its only for world PvP and PVE. Well yeah thats true but in future we will be having PVE rankings which means players who spent hundreds of dollars / euros can just instantly top rankings because of they got everything fully upgraded in first day of patch. Personally im not playing Arena that much but Arena atleast is not  effected by this.

 

Also worst part of this is that Ncsoft clearly stated in first livestream that they dont want game to become p2w and after launch it took them 2 weeks to break their promises for players. If they said that game might contain p2w elements like this in first live stream i would have not spent single euro on this game. I bought masterpack because i liked this game and not having any p2w element in game was something that made me want to support Ncsoft so i feel like players were lied to and cheated with this.

 

Also now someone might bring currency exchange to this conversation. Yes im still against it and dont like it but it was something that i could somewhat accept because it was players who were selling gold for hongmoon coins and it had some potential to reduce goldsellers and offer players safer way to make money. Also buying gold directly would have more positive impact for economy due players being able to buy materials from market which some of us spent nice amount of time crafting / getting but well now moonwater transformation stones are worthless to anyone who doesnt buy hundreds of boxes.

 

 

[Khelagh]

man, op, you opened yourself up to a fanboy gangbang with this one. the fact is that RNGboxes are ominous as hell, and the contents of the current one are indeed troubling. it's going to impact the market, and hard i imagine. i'm biding my time to see what comes next, but i have the lowest expectations and have already decided NCSoft won't get any more of my money until the game dies or they listen to us and decide not to put anymore of that shit on the store. if another box shows up, i'll be going somewhere else - the world doesn't need another Trion Worlds, and i'll be damned if i help sow one. 

[889038_1452550551]

Pay2win has no clear cut definition and everyone has different idea about such term.

But we can all agree that Pay2win means it gives a player who used real money in the game to have more advantages than most free players.

I think that it's not pay2win ONLY BECAUSE us free players are still able to do upgrade end game gears by running a dungeons etc.

 

However, I do agree w/ you OP that it's kind of unfair that they can get better gears and such much quicker

just by paying and getting a RNGBox that can give them items that they can use to upgrade and or sell in the market.

It feels like they're taking a "shortcut" to the game.

 

I think we should have a different term than pay2win to describe this type of situation...

 

Either NCSoft discard the RNGboxes and implement the outfits that people are willing to spend money on,

or don't include any upgrade items in the RNGBoxes instead make it so that they just get random outfits,

or just make upgrade items/salvaged items unmarketable

in order to avoid the deflation of the game economy. (Feel free to correct me, but this is my personal point of view on market/economy and how the result of implementation of RNGBoxes impacting it.)

 

-Bottom line: No, it's not Pay2Win, however it's a bit unpleasant to see these "shotcutters" getting their gears faster by just getting upgrade items and or selling items they got from RNGBoxes.

 

[chinmi]

pay2win ? NO

grind fest ? YES, but it's good. so people don't get end game content in 1 week after the game release.

 

this is a good game. the only stupid thing is the master loot option can be changed while fighting.

[LordLokai]

They are not selling direct power, but the items sold can be used to get a gold advantage allowing you to essentially " purchase " power do to the auction loot system... in a way yes it is pay to win in that respect. 

[Mikeyeli]

I think its not pay 2 win, definitely pay for convenience, the thing is NCSoft went a little overboard when it comes to removing features from free players, Inventory and wardrobe are my biggest gripes, those should be available to everyone, they are very important QOL necessities that shouldnt be considered luxuries. Atleast give people an option to grind inventory space in some way in game for free. The RNG boxes, even though I hate to death, I think still dont cross the p2w line, simply because you would need to spend too much money for it to become an issue, I doubt enough people have this kind of disposable income for it to become an issue.

[naBstaer]

I don't think it's pay 2 win, but pay to get basic functionalities... like inventory and vault ;/

[TakunDes]

You can P2W in PVE yes. but thats the same with all other mmos. in fact i would love to have more people that does that?

 

know why? because these p2w players will help a ton clearing dungeons faster and will be a greater asset to the team.

 

p2w in arena? nope sorry even if you spent a trillion its not going to help as its equalized.

[Nowaki]

Well i guess is about what you understand as "P2W", i've seen people complaining about P2W just bcuz of the wardrobe, yeah, "the game is PAY TO WIN because if you pay you can get and extra inventory for costumes-only storage!!!!! Thats going to break the game!!!!!" so.... I came here from Skyforge, where P2W was/is a real thing, you dont get ultra items that can only be bought with money, in fact you can convert your in-game currency to donation currency just like that (auto system, no need to trade or anything, just converting it), sounds really nice right? well... is not... because they used that as an excuse for a ridiculous p2w fest, hided as "pay to progress faster", the game have weekly caps, so you can only get a fixed amount of money per week, once you get to that limit nothing else could give you money but converting your donation currency into ingame currency (yeah, it works in both ways), for upgrading anything you need money, so f2p users were locked by weekly limits, but p2w werent! so yeah, it was pay to progress faster, how faster? lets say that a free to play player would need a year or two (not exageration, real numbers) to catch up a paying player (that, just thinking if he stopped progressing for that year), now it was also a non-stop money grabbed, because no matter how much you pay, you gotta keep playing to keep up with the rest of the paying players.... i was a paying player at the start, ofc it was awesome, i was in the main core of parties, i was always invited as main dps to anywhere, everything was happy, but when i decided not to pay anymore (at least for a while) i start realising how fast things changed, now i was designed as suport, cuz my dps wasnt high enought, i was a member of reserve for the main group, paying players had more than 50% better dps, and about 3 times more HP than i do..... and i just stoped playing with money for like... 2-3 months.... Is not that i stoped playing at all, i keep it up with my weekly limits, playing as any other f2p player........

 

Now THATS pay to win for me.... even if people complain about random boxes..... mostly because transformation stones.... they are like 4g in the marked atm ._. you can get atleast 2 daily (more if you decide to sell your soulstones) i have more than enought transformation stones without getting those boxes.....And i really dont want to talk about people saying wardrobe is pay to win...... thats just too stupid to be taken serious.

[Zarec]

7 hours ago, Silmaria said:

Are we having that option now? NO.

 

Most games? Which games? Most games don't have it, few games have it, that's what you failed to understand.

 

Your thinking of P2W is limited, the same way people think Age of BULLSHIT have no P2W until 2 years later and then everyone even an idiot could realize by that time, but before there are plenty of people like you defend it to no end.

 

Look at the way this game currently work, the company makes every efforts to tempt players to buy premium, even exchange market is not even in yet.

 

There are plenty of people like you who think only stats and boosts items are P2W, naive, really naive.

 

Perhaps you should look at some Chinese game companies, they make it looks like not P2W until later when people realize their profits are at the roof, mean while plenty defend them not P2W, laughable at best.

 

Youre trying to make pay2win be all encompassing when it is not.  

 

If if you can get legendary weapons only in the store then yes it is pay2win. If you can get them in store and game then no by definition it is not pay2win. 

[Takao]

Boxes kills economy kills pve of the game only thing thats left is unbalanced pvp to date.....

[Ebrietaz]

I don't see why P2W would even be a problem, in my opinion.

If someone wants to toss a bunch of money at NCsoft to level up quicker, that is their choice.

I am F2P and I could care less if another player wanted to pay to advance in the game quicker.

It's their money, I don't see why it would affect anyone else.

Play the game, grind and work for your gear/items if you don't want to "P2W."

In the end, I would hope it would make the individual who decides not to P2W feel like they accomplished something, and feel good about themselves.

That is how I look at it. *shrugs*

[Ebrietaz]

20 hours ago, Arcann said:

sup

A lot of goodies you have there. *grabbyhands*

 

I am jealous of the costumes.. I wish those were tradable so I could buy some with my in-game casherino.

[Lurkios]

Since the release of the RNG boxes the game is, absolutely, P2W.

 

Content required to progress in the game is currently locked behind daily timers, rare drops and long craft times. This same content can be had, instantly, through the RNG boxes - giving on an edge in both PvE and open world PvE it would not be likely to gain otherwise.

 

100%, absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, P2W now.

[Zarec]

Just now, Lurkios said:

Since the release of the RNG boxes the game is, absolutely, P2W.

 

Content required to progress in the game is currently locked behind daily timers, rare drops and long craft times. This same content can be had, instantly, through the RNG boxes - giving on an edge in both PvE and open world PvE it would not be likely to gain otherwise.

 

100%, absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, P2W now.

 

By definition what you described is not pay2win.  Everyone still has the same advantages just different ways to obtain it. Of it gave you more power than someone could obtain in game then yes it is pay to win. 

 

Everythibf you described is not pay2win.