Justsomeone

CAN WE FIX FORCEMASTER SKILLS?

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i feel useless against some classes because my "counters" don't work.

1-Frost tornado "Disables Offensive-Defense for 4 sec on hit with the first attack"

 

it never worked, people can still hit you and defend for some reason, so you feel useless when you want to stop their blocks, its annoying to fight assassins and bms, i know that don't work when they are already blocking.

 

2-retreat "User is resistant to damage, status effects" maybe it's lag but people can stun me before my roll finish, so you can get combed to death.

 

3- losing stance sometimes when someone grab you and throw at the air, you want to use your ice skills to block when you get at the ground, but you lose your stance so you have to attack first and the enemy maybe can reflect it, because some classes can attack and defend at the same time, when you finally can use it you are almost dead, this is annoying too.

 

4-phantom grip "Penetrates Defense, Deflect" well people can just resist it while attacking and you waste your cool down.

 

5-divine veil "resist ranged attacks and status effects for 15s" well it work against ranged attacks but people can still stun/knock you down, blade dances and fm can still grab you.

 

so they going to fix it at later patch or will be the same and working as intended?

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dmoe33   

Watch madoshi this guy completely wrecks 

 

I thought the same and i still agree fms are unbalanced in the way u have to work much harder to get the same gain as other classes in pvp perspective. However again watch madoshi hes crazy

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13 minutes ago, SerialCaTFeeler said:

There are FM players already Dimond , so yeah FM is working correctly .

bad answer, this don't prove nothing, just because there are very pro players don't mean that the skills are working correctly;

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dmoe33   
3 minutes ago, Justsomeone said:

bad answer, this don't prove nothing, just because there are very pro players don't mean that the skills are working correctly;

True in a sense however explain by what u mean "working correctly" because to me they are working fine u just have to be a lot more careful and put in more effort to match other classes as i said in my comment watch Madoshi or even Jaesung (hes on KR server 

 

cant find a madoshi video but heres Jaesung

 

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5 minutes ago, dmoe33 said:

True in a sense however explain by what u mean "working correctly" because to me they are working fine u just have to be a lot more careful and put in more effort to match other classes as i said in my comment watch Madoshi or even Jaesung (hes on KR server 

 

cant find a madoshi video but heres Jaesung

 

because that

"1-Frost tornado "Disables Offensive-Defense for 4 sec on hit with the first attack"" why they can still defend and attack you? so im forced to spec in snowball stage 2 to counter the defense and its useless to do dmg, but not every bm and sin play defensive and i will have a useless skill.

 

i will watch the video but just because the guy is good don't means that there's only one viable build.

Edited by Justsomeone

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The skills are working correctly.

Be more specific with tornado and I can explain why you aren't getting the desired result.

 

For roll, at the end of your roll there is a small window of vulnerability, taking advantage of this through CC skills is part of many advanced combos.

 

Losing stance would be because stances only last 10 seconds, that is part of the design.

 

As for grip, very few things stop grip, this one as well you will need to be more specific about, since in most cases grip works amazingly.

 

Divine veil, as you also quoted, only works against ranged attacks so of course melee things will still hit you.

Against BM it is mostly just effective against their throw, same with LBM, against assassin it stops shurikens, against KFM it does nothing, against destroyer it again stops throw.

 

It is only very strong against summoner and other FM's, or of course in PvE.

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Bronthe   

I am an FM and I think the class is perfectly fine. Read all your skills very carefully, so that you understand what they trigger when you use them. That way you will also know when to use them. Keep your distance, spam that keyboard correctly and it's a win. I have only lost by the hand of another FM in Arenas, no other class so far.

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14 minutes ago, Bronthe said:

 Read all your skills very carefully

 

But but but reedin iz hard. I wanna go in arena and punch my win key without actually having to get good at the class I'm playing.

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Nikun   
1 hour ago, Toniciano said:

 

But but but reedin iz hard. I wanna go in arena and punch my win key without actually having to get good at the class I'm playing.

 

To be fair reading skills in this game is not enough as the tooltips are incredibly bad, especially in our version. Check Bns tree for better translations. In the case of tornado, it disables offensive-defense skills, which is a specific type of skills, more commonly known as spins.

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Thinking about it, I do think it'd be kinda cool if the type of skill it is was added. Obviously block is defensive and pew pews are offensive, but offensive-defensive skills such as those damn spins are a little tricky. Then again, it does damage -and- has a defensive trait.. A little tricky, but a tad more elaboration wouldn't be a bad thing.

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Posting a link to anyone's video if they're not using the NA client when an individual is complaining about the NA client is abolutely freaking irrelevant, you guys DO realize that right?
Different programming teams translating the code to English and making whatever changes they want.
That makes the client different, and VERY easily bugs out skills.

If you have no visual irrefutable proof that the NA client isn't bugged on these skills then there's no point in posting anything but text arguing that "it works for you" if your experience has shown that it does.

Also, stating that "the tooltips are inaccurate" is futile.  The tooltips say exactly what's supposed to be happening.  Why would you be okay with a spell that doesn't do what it says it's supposed to?  I guarantee you that if it were an item that sold for 5000G according to the tooltip and you sold it and only got 1c you'd feel ripped off in a heartbeat. 
This statement of "just take it as it comes" is why developers become complacent, and right now; at the stage and state that the NA client of this game is in, that's the LAST thing that the developers need to be doing.

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7 minutes ago, Dracconus said:

Posting a link to anyone's video if they're not using the NA client when an individual is complaining about the NA client is abolutely freaking irrelevant, you guys DO realize that right?
Different programming teams translating the code to English and making whatever changes they want.
That makes the client different, and VERY easily bugs out skills.

If you have no visual irrefutable proof that the NA client isn't bugged on these skills then there's no point in posting anything but text arguing that "it works for you" if your experience has shown that it does.

Also, stating that "the tooltips are inaccurate" is futile.  The tooltips say exactly what's supposed to be happening.  Why would you be okay with a spell that doesn't do what it says it's supposed to?  I guarantee you that if it were an item that sold for 5000G according to the tooltip and you sold it and only got 1c you'd feel ripped off in a heartbeat. 
This statement of "just take it as it comes" is why developers become complacent, and right now; at the stage and state that the NA client of this game is in, that's the LAST thing that the developers need to be doing.

The issue here isn't that the tooltip is wrong, it is that it is vague.

From how the tooltip is written, the way it works COULD be interpreted, however it is also open (and more likely) to be interpreted wrongly.

 

Your gold example isn't vague in the description, so it doesn't translate well as an example.

 

As for skills not working correctly, so far in this topic at least, he(The OP) hasn't shown any evidence for that statement being correct.

Quite on the contrary it is most likely a lack of understanding for how his skills work.

 

Posting proof against the possibility of bugs really isn't necessary before any proof for that possibility has been shown.

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Quote

1-Frost tornado "Disables Offensive-Defense for 4 sec on hit with the first attack"

It doesn't disable blocks but offensive-defenses.

Destro spin, BD spin , BM specced blade crash, KFM specced elbow *** are labeled as one. Read the tooltips

 

Quote

2-retreat "User is resistant to damage, status effects" maybe it's lag but people can stun me before my roll finish, so you can get combed to dea

You are locked to animation at the end of roll. During roll its iframe and at the very end ur vulnerable.

Term used in this scenario is tech chasing

Quote

4-phantom grip "Penetrates Defense, Deflect" well people can just resist it while attacking and you waste your cool down.

Well ofc.. because it doesn't say it would penetrate iframe.

All blocks are categorized as defense and deflects are deflects

Quote

5-divine veil "resist ranged attacks and status effects for 15s" well it work against ranged attacks but people can still stun/knock you down, blade dances and fm can still grab you.

This is typo and idk what it havent been fixed. It never ever resisted status effects in any patch

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1 hour ago, Snowbunny said:

It doesn't disable blocks but offensive-defenses.

Destro spin, BD spin , BM specced blade crash, KFM specced elbow *** are labeled as one. Read the tooltips

 

funny because frost tornado never stopped spins either, not for 4s at least, maybe for 0,2s

Quote

You are locked to animation at the end of roll. During roll its iframe and at the very end ur vulnerable.

Term used in this scenario is tech chasing

 so  i'm vulnerable at my roll? how is that even fair if can't move? while other classes can just escape forever?

Quote

Losing stance would be because stances only last 10 seconds, that is part of the design.

well that's a bad design because people can air combo you at tag matches for more than 10s

Quote

As for grip, very few things stop grip, this one as well you will need to be more specific about, since in most cases grip works amazingly.

well sometimes i can grab non invisible sins and they get invisible above me and i need to thrown them, how is that even possible?

bd can jump stun at me in the middle of my grab, destroyers can resist my grab while spinning, summoner pet can resist it while crouching in other cases it works correctly.

I am an FM and I think the class is perfectly fine. Read all your skills very carefully, so that you understand what they trigger when you use them. That way you will also know when to use them. Keep your distance, spam that keyboard correctly and it's a win. I have only lost by the hand of another FM in Arenas, no other class so far.

you never have been at arena lol.

Quote

But but but reedin iz hard. I wanna go in arena and punch my win key without actually having to get good at the class I'm playing.

well i'm at 1700 in arena i don't think that i get there smashing my keyboard, i'm not QQ for losing, i just want my skills to work like the tips is saying.

 

Edited by Justsomeone

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14 minutes ago, Justsomeone said:

funny because frost tornado never stopped spins either, not for 4s at least, maybe for 0,2s

 so  i'm vulnerable at my roll? how is that even fair if can't move? while other classes can just escape forever?

well that's a bad design because people can air combo you at tag matches for more than 10s

well sometimes i can grab non invisible sins and they get invisible above me and i need to thrown them, how is that even possible?

bd can jump stun at me in the middle of my grab, destroyers can resist my grab while spinning, summoner pet can resist it while crouching in other cases it works correctly.

well i'm at 1700 in arena i don't think that i get there smashing my keyboard, i'm not QQ for losing, i just want my skills to work like the tips is saying.

Your frost tornado probably got resisted or otherwise negated, because otherwise it would disable spin for 4 sec.

 

ALL classes are vulnerable during the END of their roll, for FM you can chase someone during their roll and dragonchar(daze)/Glacial beam(stun) them to continue your combo, and it is nothing they can do to avoid that daze/stun if you time it right, best they can do is use an escape to get out of the CC afterwards.

 

If you need a stance once you land then just Q/E, will give you iframes and lets you get right into a stance, it is design that makes managing your stances more crucial, which I would say raises the skill ceiling in a good way.

 

I am somewhat sure that sins can only stop your grip if you time your grip use at the same time they use their countermove during grip (or if they got escape skilled into negating grip as well), same with destroyers when you grip them. BD can indeed stop a grab when they want tho, that is one of the benefits of being a BD. As for destroyer spin, don't try grab them during spin since that is an offensive-defense skill which si different from a defense skill, that is why grip doesn't go through it. Lastly for summoner pet, don't grab it when it is crouching, for same reason as destroyer, without remembering from the top of my head, crouch gives a protection that phantom grip doesn't go through.

 

The skills are working as is written on them, some of them could just be written more clearly, but they are not wrong the way they are written now.

Edited by ssolitude

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29 minutes ago, ssolitude said:

Your frost tornado probably got resisted or otherwise negated, because otherwise it would disable spin for 4 sec.

 

ALL classes are vulnerable during the END of their roll, for FM you can chase someone during their roll and dragonchar(daze)/Glacial beam(stun) them to continue your combo, and it is nothing they can do to avoid that daze/stun if you time it right, best they can do is use an escape to get out of the CC afterwards.

 

If you need a stance once you land then just Q/E, will give you iframes and lets you get right into a stance, it is design that makes managing your stances more crucial, which I would say raises the skill ceiling in a good way.

 

I am somewhat sure that sins can only stop your grip if you time your grip use at the same time they use their countermove during grip (or if they got escape skilled into negating grip as well), same with destroyers when you grip them. BD can indeed stop a grab when they want tho, that is one of the benefits of being a BD. As for destroyer spin, don't try grab them during spin since that is an offensive-defense skill which si different from a defense skill, that is why grip doesn't go through it. Lastly for summoner pet, don't grab it when it is crouching, for same reason as destroyer, without remembering from the top of my head, crouch gives a protection that phantom grip doesn't go through.

 

The skills are working as is written on them, some of them could just be written more clearly, but they are not wrong the way they are written now.

i know that if they resist im not going to disable them, but it still don't work even when they get hit.

For all non force masters replying in this topic, are you sure that the tips are alright? " Unable to use ALL attack and defense skills for 4sec." even the cooldown is longer because of this.

DcFTszk.png

 

i know if use my Q/E im going to change my stance but i will waste one of my few escapes because the enemy is probability behind you and you going to move only 5m

Edited by Justsomeone

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16 minutes ago, Justsomeone said:

i know that if they resist im not going to disable them, but it still don't work even when they get hit.

For all non force masters replying in this topic, are you sure that the tips are alright? " Unable to use ALL attack and defense skills for 4sec." even the cooldown is longer because of this.

DcFTszk.png

 

i know if use my Q/E im going to change my stance but i will waste one of my few escapes because the enemy is probability behind you and you going to move only 5m

Unless you can provide a video showing frost tornado failing to disable attack-defense skills for 4sec on a succesful hit, then I don't really have any further help I can give on that matter. Just again, to mention it for the clarities sake, frost tornado only stops a few attacks that are classified as attack AND defense, stuff like BM block/KFM counter are not prevented, since these are only "defense" skills not "attack and defense" skills like destroyer spin.

 

As for not wanting to "waste" Q/E, if you are not in immediate danger then you can just LMB/RMB to get into your stance, if that is too slow then Q/E to avoid what they throw at you is the exact play you want to make, even more so considering they are your lowest cooldown dodges.

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I've been watching jaesung since the launch. his FM looks awesome however, linking his video in this topic or talking about how player X is diamond or whatever is just pointless. First of all, there are some skills that make fm considerably stronger but atm we don't have enough sp to spec like that.

Second, what most "op" forcemaster players do on youtube I can never do here ( Starfall Crater), why ? dunno really but i have a few ideas. 

 

Ping is in my opinion the biggest enemy for any FM. During certain hours of the day I can really do stuff in pvp, everything works smooth, even ani-cancel works and then when the server is in "queue" mode stuff begins to suck big time.

 

After ping, comes the actual skill build part. A lot of pro bns players skill their differently for almost each class. I doubt 50% of the people reading this topic or replying in it do the same. Since the classes are very different, you can't really tackle all of them the same way ( this should be obvious).

 

Still related a bit to skill build, I see a lot of chat ingame about how fm is too good and how blade dancers or sins are bad. For me personaly those are the 2 i have the most problems with. Reason ? I can't perma or semi freeze combo mega wreck them because i can't land a single projectile on them. Everything i see on my screen is block block counter. For those of you that may think now that I'm just an idiot and u guys are op at fm, just keep it to yourselves if you don't have anything helpful to say. 

 

I've tried the most defensive spec possible for a FM with the available skill points, like 0 into dmgm and I focused on all the defensive abilities I could get just to see if I can really defend myself and control others even if the damage wasn't enough in the long run, to actually win. Since I only have one reliable stun (3) that gets ignored by every melee class, I can't do much.  I also know that many people stress about FMs that they are able to kite too much and they can't move and all that, those people either play really bad or against some really op FM players. I can't kite stuff! By the time I press 2 buttons the guys jumps in my face from the other side of the arena, and if I try to breakout I gen countered and thrown up in the air ( fun times). 

 

In conclusion, for me FM -> ping issues matter too much, input lag, everything gets countered/blocked, I get Q E TAB SS V 5 "escapes" but everybody else seems to have either 6 counters and grabs or next to nothing when it comes to cd.

 

ps: some guy was saying here that the grip is awesome, maybe my grip is from another game, because I never encountered a player that couldn't escape from it.

 

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Vecejj   
4 minutes ago, LastMagus said:

I've been watching jaesung since the launch. his FM looks awesome however, linking his video in this topic or talking about how player X is diamond or whatever is just pointless. First of all, there are some skills that make fm considerably stronger but atm we don't have enough sp to spec like that.

Second, what most "op" forcemaster players do on youtube I can never do here ( Starfall Crater), why ? dunno really but i have a few ideas. 

 

Ping is in my opinion the biggest enemy for any FM. During certain hours of the day I can really do stuff in pvp, everything works smooth, even ani-cancel works and then when the server is in "queue" mode stuff begins to suck big time.

 

After ping, comes the actual skill build part. A lot of pro bns players skill their differently for almost each class. I doubt 50% of the people reading this topic or replying in it do the same. Since the classes are very different, you can't really tackle all of them the same way ( this should be obvious).

 

Still related a bit to skill build, I see a lot of chat ingame about how fm is too good and how blade dancers or sins are bad. For me personaly those are the 2 i have the most problems with. Reason ? I can't perma or semi freeze combo mega wreck them because i can't land a single projectile on them. Everything i see on my screen is block block counter. For those of you that may think now that I'm just an idiot and u guys are op at fm, just keep it to yourselves if you don't have anything helpful to say. 

 

I've tried the most defensive spec possible for a FM with the available skill points, like 0 into dmgm and I focused on all the defensive abilities I could get just to see if I can really defend myself and control others even if the damage wasn't enough in the long run, to actually win. Since I only have one reliable stun (3) that gets ignored by every melee class, I can't do much.  I also know that many people stress about FMs that they are able to kite too much and they can't move and all that, those people either play really bad or against some really op FM players. I can't kite stuff! By the time I press 2 buttons the guys jumps in my face from the other side of the arena, and if I try to breakout I gen countered and thrown up in the air ( fun times). 

 

In conclusion, for me FM -> ping issues matter too much, input lag, everything gets countered/blocked, I get Q E TAB SS V 5 "escapes" but everybody else seems to have either 6 counters and grabs or next to nothing when it comes to cd.

 

ps: some guy was saying here that the grip is awesome, maybe my grip is from another game, because I never encountered a player that couldn't escape from it.

 

Sums up FM pretty well, I'm a 45 FM and it's frustrating to have to work so much harder just to have similar winning chances. I like a challenge but it's come to the point in tag matches that players have been saying GG at the start because they've got an FM on their team... sad of them to do that but there is truth to it lol. 

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I'm sure others have a better time with FM because of more experience or better ping or whatever, but in my case no matter what "experts" say or show me, it's just not the case. And as each day passes I feel like the ping is just too much of a factor. Like, how does retreat even matter if all I do is spam that cricketing F button and it does nothing, in certain situations it has to work, yet for me ... not even pressing it constantly without doing anything else ( as a test) doesn't help.

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1 hour ago, LastMagus said:

I'm sure others have a better time with FM because of more experience or better ping or whatever, but in my case no matter what "experts" say or show me, it's just not the case. And as each day passes I feel like the ping is just too much of a factor. Like, how does retreat even matter if all I do is spam that cricketing F button and it does nothing, in certain situations it has to work, yet for me ... not even pressing it constantly without doing anything else ( as a test) doesn't help.

i know how you feel, i can't even use anti gravity i just waste my cooldown because you need a ping of 10ms to use this skill, at least i can use retreat after a F smash, my only problem is when im stuck at the animation and they stun/knock me up/down before the animation finish like i said at the topic.

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Animusx   

I am a fellow forcemaster and I feel your pain. You work hard for a opening only to find the other class resistant to your abilities. This in turn leaves you wide open. This is sadly what we have to deal with. Now jaesung is a great fm but don't let the people here fool you. He has the extra talent points our class needs over other classes. He also has balance patches and buffs we will soon be receiving. Use his video as a guide to other classes reactions and his to them. Now me and a friend have done some testing on frost tornado. It does not work on all but select abilities. A example would be summoners dandelion and that's all. Another point of the skill is it does not work while the other skill is active. If a bd or destroyer is spinning and you hit them mid spin the ability does not work and they will just keep spinning. To create a opening just grab them frost tornado and then be quick on the follow up. They can still counter you but it's up to you to know how to create a opening. I am also currently around 1700 rating this is because of my lack of knowledge of other classes which I am studying so I can move forward to 1800. Mido shi and diamond players have some years of play on us but we just have to study up.

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16 hours ago, Justsomeone said:

bad answer, this don't prove nothing, just because there are very pro players don't mean that the skills are working correctly;

The thing you said doesnt proves anything either. Mostly playing an easy class has less outcomes. Like the skillcap difference between a KFM and a Summoner is really different. The potential increases with classes harder(flexible) than any other ones. I've playing a kfm and a bm in pvp's and rarely got facewrecked by one them. Most probably because I also play fm for sometime. Learning a class youre playing against helps a lot about the mechanics -'s and +'s of it. So if you want to learn how to facewreck one, you have to get rekt by playing one. There are lots of tricks and tips a class can offer with its kit to you, that you cannot observe or realise by playing against it. If you cannot understand why a sin can escape from your force grab, play one, check its skills. Mostly, nearly every class has a skill that allows you to escape from a hard cc(grab, grapple, phantom grab) which is in hotkey "2", needs a proper timing to be useful. Also some classes has a significant disadvantage because of the extra hong skills and skillpoints needed for pvp. Most probably pvp will never get the proper balance maybe because there shouldnt be any. I've got your points, fm's are easier to play, easier to climb through the ranks but is it really that "op" ? Or their opponents fail playing properly? I could've think once before replying like this but I highly doubt that youre not in plat/diamond ranks for a long time, or had a significant amount of pvp matches? If you didn't you should play every single class for sometime to get their mechanics properly and make a judgement about it. 

Cupcakes!

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