Most of the BladeMaster skills don't make sense

[SpartanGamer]

Just now, Ghobe said:

I mean, no shit. I'm still fighting people that are easier than what I had to fight before I hit 1600 over a week ago.

Yeah man, just divebomb the shit out of them. You'll reach diamond in no time. Make sure you set macros up for your divebombs. 

[Ghobe]

9 minutes ago, SpartanGamer said:

Yeah man, just divebomb the shit out of them. You'll reach diamond in no time. Make sure you set macros up for your divebombs. 

Sigh...when are you going to get it through your thick skull that it's not a bad skill. There are just better skills.

 

Yes, you can get off Boot->Blindside->Honedslashx3 in the spam span as Boot->Breeze->Divebomb->Breeze->Divebomb, but doing so costs 10 focus, while the divebomb combo costs 1 focus, but depending on your breeze crits, you can actually come out neutral or with +1 focus. Yes they can ground counter these breezes, but they have to know when your breezes are coming, if they ground counter your divebomb, they lose it. You don't exactly have to breeze->divebomb->breeze->divebomb, you could divebomb->breezex2->divebomb or breeze->divebombx2->breeze. I'll say it again, the only problem with Divebomb is that you just don't have the skill points to put into it. If Honed Slash required you to invest 2 skill points into it to do the damage it does, we'd be having the same conversation.

[SpartanGamer]

2 minutes ago, Ghobe said:

Sigh...when are you going to get it through your thick skull that it's not a bad skill. There are just better skills.

 

Yes, you can get off Boot->Blindside->Honedslashx3 in the spam span as Boot->Breeze->Divebomb->Breeze->Divebomb, but doing so costs 10 focus, while the divebomb combo costs 1 focus, but depending on your breeze crits, you actually come out neutral or with +1 focus. Yes they can ground counter these breezes, but they have to know when your breezes are coming. You don't exactly have to breeze->divebomb->breeze->divebomb, you could divebomb->breezex2->divebomb or breeze->divebombx2->breeze. I'll say it again, the only problem with Divebomb is that you just don't have the skill points to put into it. If Honed Slash required you to invest 2 skill points into it to do the damage it does, we'd be having the same conversation.

Mate, you're the one being dense here. Besides this argument is stupid and "There are just better skills", which is why you don't need divebomb AT ALL. I never said it was a bad skill, but it's inferior and therefore bad for pvp-- it is good, however, for pve. If you put in two points into divebomb, which is very wasteful due to other superior dps options, you potentially waste out on additional cc moves or cc affects such as allocating an additional one point to each version(draw and basic stance) "2", which has approach, movement disables... It is a "bad" move to spec for, not a bad move in itself. And like I explained before, there is really only one for sure way of getting it off without potential counters asides from tab.

[Ghobe]

3 minutes ago, SpartanGamer said:

Mate, you're the one being dense here. Besides this argument is stupid and "There are just better skills", which is why you don't need divebomb AT ALL. I never said it was a bad skill, but it's inferior and therefore bad for pvp-- it is good, however, for pve. If you put in two points into divebomb, which is very wasteful due to other superior dps options, you potentially waste out on additional cc moves or cc affects such as allocating an additional one point to each version(draw and basic stance) "2", which has approach, movement disables... It is a "bad" move to spec for, not a bad move in itself. And like I explained before, there is really only one for sure way of getting it off without potential counters asides from tab.

It's god awful for pve. It only has a place in pvp. There are way too many ways to generate focus in a pve spec, there's no need to be focus neutral. Divebomb is great for eating the opponent's ground counter, opening them up for other abilities. If I had the 2 additional skillpoints, I would spec it.

[SpartanGamer]

3 minutes ago, Ghobe said:

It's god awful for pve. It only has a place in pvp. There are way too many ways to generate focus in a pve spec, there's no need to be focus neutral. Divebomb is great for eating the opponent's ground counter, opening them up for other abilities. If I had the 2 additional skillpoints, I would spec it.

That may be so, but so is your boot(x), which has a 9 second cd. And is the best way to combo with divebomb, but both have the same affect, making divebombs affect a bit redundant...And when you (x) boot someone, it is better to drawstance rmb them twice, instead of just one divebomb, and besides their ground counter is cancelled already by boot, why use a divebomb again? To cancel an already cancelled defense?

 

...It's better to q> rmb x2. More than double the damage. 

[Ghobe]

5 minutes ago, SpartanGamer said:

That may be so, but so is your boot(x), which has a 9 second cd. And is the best way to combo with divebomb, but both have the same affect, making divebombs affect a bit redundant...And when you (x) boot someone, it is better to drawstance rmb them twice, instead of just one divebomb, and besides their ground counter is cancelled already by boot, why use a divebomb again? To cancel an already cancelled defense?

 

...It's better to q> rmb x2. More than double the damage. 

Using Divebomb means you don't need to save Boot for their ground counter, and you can use Divebomb after Boot, Anklebiter, and Ascend/Crash. And the argument of which would be better to use in a situation would come down to your focus situation. If you have less than 5 focus, you can't just boot and honed slash twice/thrice, you'd be limited to just one, while you could have done the entire Divebomb combo instead. And as I pointed out, the boot knockdown can be utilized by 3 honed slashes(22.5) or double breeze double divebomb(16.6).

[SpartanGamer]

On 2/26/2016 at 8:01 PM, Ghobe said:

Using Divebomb means you don't need to save Boot for their ground counter, and you can use Divebomb after Boot, Anklebiter, and Ascend/Crash. And the argument of which would be better to use in a situation would come down to your focus situation. If you have less than 5 focus, you can't just boot and honed slash twice/thrice, you'd be limited to just one, while you could have done the entire Divebomb combo instead. And as I pointed out, the boot knockdown can be utilized by 3 honed slashes(22.5) or double breeze double divebomb(16.6).

Sorry man, there's no way in hell you're getting off two breezes and two divebombs on one x combo. 

[Ghobe]

1 minute ago, SpartanGamer said:

Sorry man, there's no way in hell you're getting off two breezes and two divebombs on one x combo. 

Spec it, do it. Come back.

[SpartanGamer]

1 minute ago, Ghobe said:

Spec it, do it. Come back.

Alright, I'll try it. If divebomb can cancel defense as soon as a person ground counters just like boot can, I can see it being a pretty decent pvp move. It really depends if divebomb only cancels the counter once it procs, or if it cancels their defense for the entirety of them being in the ground. 

 

I may have had some confusion with boot's cancel defense, thinking it also cancels their ground counters-- which is wrong I think. If you can get in two breezes and two divebombs in one combo, it will be really good in pvp, since you can just do something like this:

 

x> divebomb(probably can't put in a breeze after "x" since their ground counter could be up...I'm pretty sure) > breeze(if they still can't ground counter after divebomb)> divebomb> breeze

 

possible continuation if you didn't bait their tab

 

anklebiter> divebomb > breeze > divebomb > breeze

 

Honestly, I'll probably have to try it tom, unless you want to do it in a sparring match with me? Definitely not doing this in pvp, as you don't know whether the combo is effective since they could've missed their ground counters. Need another person to be aware about the counters and constantly trying to counter it,

[Ghobe]

1 minute ago, SpartanGamer said:

Alright, I'll try it. If divebomb can cancel defense as soon as a person ground counters just like boot can, I can see it being a pretty decent pvp move. It really depends if divebomb only cancels the counter once it procs, or if it cancels their defense for the entirety of them being in the ground. 

 

I may have had some confusion with boot's cancel defense, thinking it also cancels their ground counters-- which is wrong I think. If you can get in two breezes and two divebombs in one combo, it will be really good in pvp, since you can just do something like this:

 

x> divebomb(probably can't put in a breeze after "x" since their ground counter could be up...I'm pretty sure) > breeze(if they still can't ground counter after divebomb)> divebomb> breeze

 

possible continuation if you didn't bait their tab

 

anklebiter> divebomb > breeze > divebomb > breeze

 

Honestly, I'll probably have to try it tom, unless you want to do it in a sparring match with me? Definitely not doing this in pvp, as you don't know whether the combo is effective since they could've missed their ground counters. Need another person to be aware about the counters and constantly trying to counter it,

It won't prevent them from using ground counters, but if they are using their ground counter when you do it, you will cancel it and it will go on cooldown for them(and they'll remain on the ground if there's still knockdown time).

 

As for leading with a breeze immediately after the boot, they can not ground counter until they're fully on the ground(if you want to test this, do it now on people, they will never counter the first breeze swing, it's always the second(gust?)).

 

Also I don't know what the bullshit behind the scenes mechanic is, but you can not pull off double divebomb on anklebiter knockdown, even though you can with boot...even though they have the same duration of knockdown(it's a bug and I'm not sure which skill is the bugged one honestly...probably anklebiter). Which is why you would want the duration extension on aklebiter if you were to do this. Though even without it, the chip damage from that singular divebomb is painful.

 

And one more fun fact about divebomb, it only requires the opponent to be on the ground for the start of the animation, they can be standing up when you complete the animation and it will still hit(it's also an aoe so you could be hitting both the summoner and the cat at the same time). And a little extra thing...if the opponent is in the process of standing up or IS standing up, you cause some kind of mini knockdown(you can not use another Divebomb or anything like that) which can extend your cc ever so slightly.

[SpartanGamer]

The main problem I have with speccing points into divebomb is that fact that you really have one good way, reliable way to go into divebomb and that's with your boot(x). And if the opponent can hit their ground counters after x, or if to land divebomb you have to hit f before they hit their ground counters, it will be based on who has better reactions...There's just too many variables you have to worry about. Your better off speccing for additional cc. 

[SpartanGamer]

Yeah, you're right about being able to breeze while they fly to the ground, but I was wondering if the amount of time it takes to complete breeze's animation may give them time to hit their ground counter before you hit your f. I imagine they can probably f roll out, since f casts faster than your other ground counters. You can cast f as soon as you hit the ground, with your others you have to be completely grounded I'm pretty sure. 

[TheRealBronx]

Divebomb is bad. No need to debate this any further. If you use Divebomb in PvP, you're probably some Silver casual. BM's have it hard enough in arena, with a perfect spec.

 

It does not put you in an advantageous postion, and costs 2 valuable skill points to spec. I'm Hongmoon 3 right now, and even with the 3 extra points from hitting HM5, I would not have enough points for this skill without having to gimp my build in order to fit it.

 

When a BM grounds an opponent, it sets up your ground game. You can set up to counter the opponents ground counter with Boot, chain CC them if they do nothing, or set up a tech chase in case the opponent tech rolls. The ground game is vital to a BM's success in arena, and by spec'ing into Divebomb, you're pretty much negating your own effectiveness for the sake of dealing damage in the most nooby way possible.

 

Stop Divebombing in PvP, you're making us look bad.

[Ghobe]

11 hours ago, SpartanGamer said:

Yeah, you're right about being able to breeze while they fly to the ground, but I was wondering if the amount of time it takes to complete breeze's animation may give them time to hit their ground counter before you hit your f. I imagine they can probably f roll out, since f casts faster than your other ground counters. You can cast f as soon as you hit the ground, with your others you have to be completely grounded I'm pretty sure. 

I recall being able to knock them out of their f roll if they were too slow on the button press, but that's more on their part than your part. And it's perfectly fine if their ground counter is up before or after you hit divebomb. You're going to cause it to go on cooldown regardless. It would only be troublesome if they waited until after your divebomb hit them before they hit ground counter and they catch your follow-up breeze.

 

41 minutes ago, TheRealBronx said:

It does not put you in an advantageous postion, and costs 2 valuable skill points to spec. I'm Hongmoon 3 right now, and even with the 3 extra points from hitting HM5, I would not have enough points for this skill without having to gimp my build in order to fit it.

It's a safe way to deal damage when you've knocked them down which normally grants them an additional counter. Divebomb ignores that counter. And right now, as I look at my spec and what I can go into, without the book from BSH4, Divebomb will probably be what I spec into at HM5. If I have the book from BSH4 by then, then yea, *cricket* it.

 

42 minutes ago, TheRealBronx said:

Divebomb is bad. No need to debate this any further. If you use Divebomb in PvP, you're probably some Silver casual. BM's have it hard enough in arena, with a perfect spec.

I mean, Divebomb is highly effective when you don't have the skill points to spec into everything you need to do your ground play(a.k.a. level 30s). Which I understand isn't the biggest deal when you're talking about a game where the pvp revolves more around level cap, but it's still a thing. And then as I pointed out before, if you don't have the BSH4 book and you're HM5, what else are you going to spec into? Flash Step? Pierce? Divebomb is better than these options.

[SpartanGamer]

" I mean, Divebomb is highly effective when you don't have the skill points to spec into everything you need to do your ground play(a.k.a. level 30s). Which I understand isn't the biggest deal when you're talking about a game where the pvp revolves more around level cap, but it's still a thing. And then as I pointed out before, if you don't have the BSH4 book and you're HM5, what else are you going to spec into? Flash Step? Pierce? Divebomb is better than these options. "

 

After a little thought, divebomb isn't as bad as I thought, but I believe the 2 points can be better spent elsewhere, especially if you're in your 30s-- you'll need EVERY spare point you can get to complete your core build. For instance, the most important cc for your most fundamental and crucial combo requires a total of 7 skill points! 2 points into basic "2",

2 points in drawstance "2", 3 points in flicker for the stun...It's best to completely avoid divebomb until you have the extra points, but even then those points are better allocated to additional cc speccing or additional cc moves. Even speccing into flash step is better since it is free damage and is harder hitting. 

[Ghobe]

35 minutes ago, SpartanGamer said:

After a little thought, divebomb isn't as bad as I thought, but I believe the 2 points can be better spent elsewhere, especially if you're in your 30s-- you'll need EVERY spare point you can get to complete your core build. For instance, the most important cc for your most fundamental and crucial combo requires a total of 7 skill points! 2 points into basic "2",

2 points in drawstance "2", 3 points in flicker for the stun...It's best to completely avoid divebomb until you have the extra points, but even then those points are better allocated to additional cc speccing or additional cc moves. Even speccing into flash step is better since it is free damage and is harder hitting. 

Which is more or less what I've been saying since the start.

 

But I mean, at level 30...your spec is probably going to look something like...

https://bnstree.com/BM?build=30000021153211133126212302220521104221272100322

Which you could drop Divebomb and a point out of Soaring Falcon to pick up the flicker stun, but it's a question of...is flicker stun more worthwhile than the pull and Divebomb? But low level stuff is hardly a point to get in depth on.

[SpartanGamer]

I'm sorry, but that build is really bad. So many bad specs, and you missed out on your most crucial combos by speccing into divebomb. My point precisely. The build should look something like this: 

https://bnstree.com/BM?build=30000022013211011111311262123022205310032213211

 

In your build, your putting way too many points to your divebomb and boot. They're better used elsewhere. You're just lacking too much in your kit, you have like no balance between stances and is primarily focused on divebombing people. Lol. The main things you should be investing would be your draw stance abilities and core cc. You don't even have an essential core combo with s s into draw stance > fivepoint strike airborne > etc, because you wasted points on divebomb. By eliminating divebomb, you could put those two points into s s and fivepoint strike! And since you're starved for points, you really don't need the knockdown from boot. By itself it still does what its designed to do and that's to counter defense, so boot is still effective even without points-- might as well spend those points elsewhere for essential cc. And that's why you should prioritize flicker over any other non core ability because stuns are the most important cc since an opponent can only tab to counter it! So it'd be better to not waste points on z(already enough gap closers) and x(already effective) and put it into flicker stun and f(to reduce chi cost). 

 

 

[Ghobe]

@SpartanGamer

See you value that flicker stun heavily. I personally do not and could live without it. I find it hard to land without the enemy already being cc'd. You also use the aerial five point, and I stopped using it a long time ago as I value that 5th hit's defense disable much more valuable than the damage I'd get from sending them airborne(not to mention all the more focus I get). All I'm really saying here is that there's more than one way to play the blade master in pvp(even the diamond players I watch all play it slightly different).

[SpartanGamer]

 

2 hours ago, Ghobe said:

@SpartanGamer

See you value that flicker stun heavily. I personally do not and could live without it. I find it hard to land without the enemy already being cc'd. You also use the aerial five point, and I stopped using it a long time ago as I value that 5th hit's defense disable much more valuable than the damage I'd get from sending them airborne(not to mention all the more focus I get). All I'm really saying here is that there's more than one way to play the blade master in pvp(even the diamond players I watch all play it slightly different).

Ok, well only two points in 5 point for the defense disable and daze is good. You don't have to go into airborne, and it does synergize well with your v in order to keep them in your aoe. So that wasn't a bad idea, what I was mainly against were those two points in divebomb. I was just trying to utilize the extra point after taking it out of divebomb and into ss. You could probably put that in your draw stance 2 for the movement speed slow and bleed and approach disable. 

 

And about the flicker stun, every BM should value flicker stun, or just stuns in general, over any other cc ability or even most moves for that matter. Have you been reading what I've typed about core combos and how important stuns are? If you're having troubles landing flicker, then you're not combo'ing correctly. It's really easy to land, and it is a vital move for landing your huge burst combos. You absolutely need stuns in your kit since it guarantees you to land your burst combos if you do it correctly. The only way to counter a stun is with your tab/trinket, and if your trinket is blown you should be initiating your combos with a stun and weaving in other stuns in between down times to continue dpsing-- you can also use your five point to disable defense-- but if let's say you stun> combo> daze, they can immediately counter with an f roll, negating your combo. Which is why it is CRUCIAL to have STUNS in your kit, i.e "flicker".

 

Flicker is really easy to land. And if you're having trouble landing it, it's probably because you're trying to initiate with it, which is not that effective. To make it land 100% of the time, you need to cc them first then enter draw stance and then flicker. My go to combo when my opponent burns their tab/trinket is :

 

2> v > v> 4 > flicker> lmb > lmb> 2(extend stun)> etc etc

 

If you land your 2 stun and the opponent has their tab down, you will 100% of the time be able to land your flicker if you time it correctly. I shouldn't have to be explaining this...

[Ghobe]

1 minute ago, SpartanGamer said:

To make it land 100% of the time, you need to cc them first then enter draw stance and then flicker.

 

2 hours ago, Ghobe said:

I find it hard to land without the enemy already being cc'd.

That'd be what I said. It's really hard to utilize without another cc in place and at a low level, you don't have all your cc.

[SpartanGamer]

Just now, Ghobe said:

 

That'd be what I said. It's really hard to utilize without another cc in place and at a low level, you don't have all your cc.

Then why is flicker a problem for you? Going by that logic, divebomb should also be an issue for you since in order for you to land it most of the time you'll need boot. I just don't get you. You're so bent on being right/ showing how good divebomb is that you disregard more reasonable conclusions. And since you're low level and are starved for vital cc, it makes it even more important that you have as much stuns as your points can afford you! Which is why you don't waste points on unnecessary skills for mediocre combos...That being your boot and divebomb. 

 

 

[Ghobe]

1 minute ago, SpartanGamer said:

Then why is flicker a problem for you? Going by that logic, divebomb should also be an issue for you since in order for you to land it most of the time you'll need boot. I just don't get you. You're so bent on being right/ showing how good divebomb is that you disregard more reasonable conclusions. And since you're low level and are starved for vital cc, it makes it even more important that you have as much stuns as your points can afford you! Which is why you don't waste points on unnecessary skills for mediocre combos...That being your boot and divebomb. 

 

 

You're giving up a 9 second knockdown double divebomb with 18 second single divebomb anklebiter for a 2 second stun on a 45 second cooldown.

[SpartanGamer]

1 minute ago, Ghobe said:

You're giving up a 9 second knockdown double divebomb with 18 second single divebomb anklebiter for a 2 second stun on a 45 second cooldown.

Sigh. 

 

You're giving up your best burst as a BM, one of the moves that enables you to 100-0 people, one of the only moves that only has one counter! It's also easier to proc than divebomb. Also you're just finding ways to support your combo/divebomb. Literally, I don't understand why you're so bent on promoting that move. It's bad advice to anyone reading it because you're literally saying it's better than superior moves/combos!

 

Ok, so how about I counter that with "you're giving up a vital cc that ensures the opponent is stun locked for either,or both, continuing to dps with additional dmg procc'ed with honedslash(which you can twice and its damage is far superior to divebomb) and to be sure the opponent stays in your V's aoe. Literally, since once their tab is blown there is NO COUNTER. BMs aren't about double divebombing people over and over again-- it's about huge burst damage through opponent errors, and stuns are literally the only way to ensure this huge burst gets through. My god how are you even around ~1800? You must've been playing a bunch of fms or bots or something. 

 

[Ghobe]

5 minutes ago, SpartanGamer said:

Ok, so how about I counter that with "you're giving up a vital cc that ensures the opponent is stun locked for either,or both, continuing to dps with additional dmg procc'ed with honedslash(which you can twice and its damage is far superior to divebomb) and to be sure the opponent stays in your V's aoe. Literally, since once their tab is blown there is NO COUNTER. BMs aren't about double divebombing people over and over again-- it's about huge burst damage through opponent errors, and stuns are literally the only way to ensure this huge burst gets through. My god how are you even around ~1800? You must've been playing a bunch of fms or bots or something. 

lmao but you're not able to do your full combo in your 30s. You don't have lightning retribution, you don't have lunar slash daze, you don't have heavenly dance, etc etc. You will never 100-0 someone at level 30. It's just not possible. You're going to need to chip them down. And ~9 divebombs(accounting for f rolls) over that 45 second period is better than 2 honed slashes.

[SpartanGamer]

2 minutes ago, Ghobe said:

lmao but you're not able to do your full combo in your 30s. You don't have lightning retribution, you don't have lunar slash daze, you don't have heavenly dance, etc etc. You will never 100-0 someone at level 30. It's just not possible. You're going to need to chip them down. And ~9 divebombs(accounting for f rolls) over that 45 second period is better than 2 honed slashes.

Lol. I'd love to see someone get divebombed 9 times in 45 seconds. You'll have to be a potato for that to happen. Lol. And 9 divebombs is not realistic...Come on now...

Are you serious? You can 100-0 someone even without your lunar slash and lightning ret, and in fact, if you're not careful with your combo rotation, you can fk it up since they're dazes! The main rotation is with STUNS to keep them in your aoe. To one shot, all you need is your complete stun rotation, which you have in this build for 30, and your V specced to tier 2 stage 2. You still have your fivepoint(disable defense), x, and c to keep them cc chained it. For instance:

 

2> v > v> 4 > flicker> lmb> lmb> 2(extend)> fivepointstrike(disable, daze) > etc, etc.