GhostX

Attention NCSoft: Relook Premium

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GhostX   

Firstly, I want to say you have made a great game when it comes to combat, story, and visuals. This game is a fresh look at NA MMO's with a old routine. Questing is repetitive and boring but is doesn't take much time to get through that and get to the interesting part PVP. I am not playing a fighting game because non stop pvp gets frustrating and old. The regular MMO gameplay in this game gives some downtime and keeps me engaged. So overall great job on creating this game, I just wish it came to NA a little sooner. I paid premium for this game because I have been looking forward to it since it was in development in Korea. I wanted to support the game I was playing and I have no problem paying a monthly fee to do that as I have done so since EQ1 and every other MMO I have played. I bought a Master Pack because it gave me a monthly Subscription and unlocked the character slots to make alternate characters and dragon pouches to unlock inventory while paying the developer for initial release.

 

Now let me get to the point of this post. I will keep this as constructive as possible to deter trolls and have some valuable feedback with facts and advice.

 

1) Lets break down the Premium membership cost at the cheapest available price. 8000 NCoins Costs $100 US simple math break down is 80 NCoins = $1US

1 Year Premium membership is 9999 NCoins (lets round up that once coin for simplicity).  10000 Ncoins / 80 Ncoins = $125 / 12 mo = $10.41US per month.

 

Now $10.41US for a monthly fee for an MMO is slightly below average, however take into account this is commiting a YEAR paid subscription to your game. Most if not all MMO's give discounts to customers that stay paying for that long. When you take that into account it works out to about the same price. That being said, I am willing to except you would also add on a few cosmetic items in the Store to make up the difference in the average MMO's monthly cost.

 

Now if I am paying a monthly subscription to a game such as FFXIV. I get full access to bank and inventory from the start of the game. I can make a good number of characters and get consistent content updates. Now I get you are not like every game, you are a free to play model with a membership incorporated so you have to do things a bit different. That's fine, but you are still putting your monthly paying subscribers behind a large paywall for content they are and have paid for. Inventory and bank space is a basic game mechanic that should not be behind a paywall for paying monthly subscribers. 

 

It takes 214 pouches to fully unlock your inventory and bank space. The cheapest way (and only way besides daily dash) to buy dragon pouches is on the cash store for 800NCoins ($10) for 23 Pouches. ( 214/23=9.3 -> 9.3 x $10US = $93US ) That is $93US (PER CHARACTER) to fully unlock a base feature in a game that I am subscribing to.

 

Training Expansion Tickets are pages in your skill book to memorize talent specs so you can switch your talents based on your situation (PVE,PVP). This is a base mechanic in the game that costs 800NCoins ($10US). So if I want lets say 3 tabs total I need to pay $20US. Your customers that pay a monthly fee have to again pay for a base mechanic that should be included with the game if you are paying a monthly fee.

 

I can understand charging for changing character name and look, as this is standard for every MMO, so I won't bother breaking this down.

 

In almost any MMO I can think of if you buy a cosmetic item on the cash store it is account wide for all characters. I was appalled at the fact the average costume costs 800 - 1200 NCoins, ($10US-$15US) some even reaching 1400NCoins ($17.50US) and they are not account bound. These costumes are character bound, so you are now asking your paying monthly subscribers to pay $10US-$17.50US per costume, per character? I can buy an expansion for a game at this price.

 

Lets break down the cost of playing one year with just 1 Alternate character with 3 talent tabs each and full inventory/bank unlocked.

1 Year Subscription = $125

214 pouches x 2 (for both characters) -> 428 Total = $186

2 Talent Tabs x 2 (for both characters) -> 4 Total = $40

125+186+40 = $351US

 

$351US / 12 = $29.25 US per month for 2 characters for BASE Game features only.

 

This cost does not include if you want to get extras to help out the company and throw a bit of money at the NCSoft and treat yourself to a costume that you can only use on one character. Do you seriously think it's reasonable to charge your customers $29.25 a month to play your game? Then on top of that have $10-$17.50 a costume to be per character?

 

Your wording on premium says advantages to having premium but those advantages are not advantages to premium they are disadvantages to not having premium. You have simply reworded it so that us paying customers feel we are getting something for our money. I am sorry but this is not going to work. I for one have no problem paying for a game I like. But I am not going to throw my money at a game. You're free to play model is fine the way I see it but your stable income model for your paying customers is outrageous and overlooked.

 

This is a constructive post so I am going to help you out and add some suggestions to correct the issue and have happy paying customers.

 

We realize that with a free to play model as your base model you can not just give premium members full bank space and training expansions because people would pay a month of premium and that is it. However charging money for them on top of the monthly sub is unethical.

 

1) Give Dragon Pouches daily as a reward to Premium customers or have another way to acquire them at a cheap and reasonable ingame currency cost.

2) Treat Training Expansions Slots the same way as above.

3) Make a shared bank stash cross characters on same server for premium customers, this helps us share consumables with ults.

4) Make the wardrobe ACCOUNT Wide ( the price of costumes is unreal to not have account wide access ).

 

Until these changes are made you will not get another cent from me and I suggest the rest of BNS players do the same, speak with your wallets. Charging a consumer $29.95US per month (for just two characters, more if you play more Alts) for an MMO that has been out for years now is absolutely insane. I have been playing various MMO's since EQ1 and always pay sub fees to support the companies as its not cheap to make or maintain these games. But lets not kid ourselves, Blizzard was in rough shape until WOW came along and now they can throw money at developing games and movies because of the profits WOW brings in. They only charge $12US per month or so at their cheapest rate.

 

Have a free to play model for your game that's fine, but don't then ask your monthly subscribers to pay for the people not paying for the game. $29.95US per month for just two characters in a game is robbery.

 

I doubt this will be read or be considered but I think I have proved that there is a problem and there is easy fixes. Don't be greedy, you have a great game and we are willing to pay but don't let your game die because you tried to push the limits of what a gamer will pay for.

 

Thanks

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100n3y   

Here here!  I been sayin' that ever since I started the game.  They could've been getting money out of me this whole time, but because I'm being cornered into spending a ridiculous amount of money JUST TO GET TO the price of a standard MMO...I'm free playing until this is resolved.  Not only is this insulting financially, but mentally as they're assuming noooooo one's doing the math you've shown above.  It's a no-brainer NCSoft....make subscription fees more easily obtained at comparable MMO prices and you'll get more money.

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I am also more than happy to drop money on a game I like playing. And I love BnS a lot currently.

 

However, having to also spend money to get a comfortable amount of stash/inventory space and another spec made me decide not to spend money on premium. Ah well...

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Yamyatos   

I also made multiple posts about these points.. wardrobe.. costume prices (even tho i'm quite happy with them right now.. they were up to 25€ per piece when i made a thread) and last but definitely not least the insane amount of money they charge for inventory space.

 

Inventory space and wardrobe are like.. the only two real turn offs for me right now. I dont have a problem to spend 15-20€ per character on inventory space... if i unlock everything with this amount. I also dont care to spend the current price, or actually even about 30% more (it's about 70€ including the premium -10%) if inventory space was unlocked account wide.

 

I bought the master pack (120€) and am going to be subbed to the game, because i LOVE THIS GAME. But i get a bad feeling when i see the insane prices. I mean, some games survive with subscription alone. For the money we spend on master pack alone you would get 2 AAA titles. But that's not enough, for all this money you get to play the game and then have to buy stuff like skill pages and inventory space lol. I mean.. i dont expect things to be free, and i guess it should be clear that i dont have a problem with spending money.. even hundreds of euros .. on games i like, but it currently just doesnt feel like it's worth it at all.

And, because it fits to the topic, in taiwan(?) prices are about 45-55% of what we have here, which sounds quite fair.

 

All the criticism aside, i'm actually happy that they lowered prices a bit since CBT. As i said above in cbt there were costumes for 25€ and average was more like 1600 than the 1200 ncoin we got now. The inventory price didnt change per bag, but still with the 23 bags for 800 and the 10% cut it's become better than it was. It is a step in the right direction, but i still think it could be way lower. 

I also dont like the thought of the wardrobe being premium only - with that being the only option to get it. Make it a one time purchase for about 1200-1600 ncoin (default costume price) and everyone would be happy. You can make it non-purchaseable with hcoin tho.. that would be a bit overkill. It's not false to bring your players to spend money once on your game.. but it doesnt feel right to make people who pay regularily feel not rewarded for what they bought and make them feel like they are "forced" to buy more for feeling comfortable in playing the game. I mean, when a person spent like 150€ on your game, you better make them feel comfortable playing it for quite a while. White knights shouldnt be all like "wow, dude, you want everything for free. NCSoft has to make money too!". I know. We know. We all know. But fact is, for that amount of money you could buy a shitton of other, full, titles.

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For me the big points will be:

 

Wardrobe account wide (maybe at Lv8 or 9?)

A bank tab account wide (Lv10?)

 

I did the commitment to get up to Lv9, so I can have remote bank access, and got almost 3 years sub, so I intend to stick with this game for long, and if I will need to send items from one characted to another by mail, and paying for each costume that I want to transfer to an alter, I will probably not do it.

 

I think too they need to make Premium worth it. 

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if i am paying you monthly i am not going to

1: buy inventory slots with real world money

2: buy keys

3: buy rng boxes

4: buy exp food...

 

i am dedicating myself to you for a month i should be able to play the game exactly like a subscription game in that everything on the shop bar cosmetics should be available to me for in game cash. If you cant do that then you aren't asking for a subscription model you are asking for me to pay you monthly and then buy more stuff as month goes on thus your subscription is really moot and more of a buy some perks system.

 

Edit: in other words WHY would i buy your premium service when i can pay the same amount and get EVERYTHING FF14 has to offer with out the bullshit?

Edited by LordLokai

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#1 thing I agree with here is: GIVE US A WAY TO EXPAND INVENTORY FOR BEING PREMIUM!~!~!~! My bank is getting REALLY full since playing from launch. As it stands I'm very likely going to stop buying premium, throw away all my costumes (lack of wardrobe) & consumable XP  boosters, and get a couple dragon pouches to store my materials. Guild Wars 2 did a cool thing with their materials bank that stores 255 of anything you can get.

 

I don't care about the training expansion tabs, as it is, it's easy enough to switch skill trees. However, it would be a reason to keep paying for premium.

 

I think it might derail the thread to talk about the absurd cost of fabric needed for guilds.

 

My suggestions: 

  • Premium subscription
    • Make an actual SUBSCRIPTION method to buying premium, none of this over-buying of NCoin crap.
    • Prices to a recurring subscription: $15/mo; $12/mo for 3months at a time ($36/3mo); $10.50/mo for yearly ($126/12mo).
  • Additional perks for premium members
    • Additional bank space is a must. Pouches as a reward somehow would be fine.
    • Cross-character bank on the same server would be a nice gesture.
    • Windstride cooldown reduction.
    • PvP statistics
    • That 20% discount on breakthrough costs you give to Rank 4+ would be nice, but, after another month not many will want this anyway.
  • Things that should be account-bound not character-bound
    • Purple breakthrough weapons.
    • XP boosting noodles from story.
    • Many people feel costumes should be, I don't though.
  • Things that were nice for the first month, but aren't incentive to continue to have premium
    • 10% XP boost from combat
    • 10% XP from quests/dailies
    • Additional Daily Dash Spins
    • Log-in Queue Priority
    • Premium membership icon (who bought premium for this?)

The premium rank thing is atrocious, I don't know how much money it would cost to get a few ranks on this thing, but its more than the amount of things I'd want to buy from the store.

 

On the premium membership page they state,

Quote

The Premium Membership benefits and their bonuses are subject to change based on player feedback, so please let us know what you think when you begin your closed beta testing! 

Here's your feedback. Let's see some changes because players will stop buying premium because it isn't worth it.

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Diagoras   

Hmm, interesting, although I do share the disappointment of a lacking account wide wardrobe and the limited (and expensive) inventory space, my biggest problem is the lack of character slots. I really like to try and level different classes and experience how they fight, but that's already limited. Combine that with the expensive unlocks, which are per character, the game feels waaaaay too expensive if you are a premium member.

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Demise   

Account-wide Wardrobe instead of just character-locked wardrobe.

 

Make it a premium feature. Give Wardrobe to the non premium players in it's current state.

 

That's my #1 suggestion.

 

If you're unlucky and have to pay $100 or so to get the outfit from the RNG boxes, and then only have it available on one character, that's ...a lot of crap, honestly.

Edited by Demise

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2 minutes ago, Diagoras said:

Hmm, interesting, although I do share the disappointment of a lacking account wide wardrobe and the limited (and expensive) inventory space, my biggest problem is the lack of character slots. I really like to try and level different classes and experience how they fight, but that's already limited. Combine that with the expensive unlocks, which are per character, the game feels waaaaay too expensive if you are a premium member.

 

I'd rather buy character slots than inventory space. $5/slot vs $93/bank.

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Diagoras   
7 minutes ago, OldMansChild said:

 

I'd rather buy character slots than inventory space. $5/slot vs $93/bank.

Well yea, costwise, but I'd think that the opportunity to try/have all classes belongs with the basegame more than inventory slots, which could be argued as being convenience-related.

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2 minutes ago, OldMansChild said:

Perhaps, but if you play a class you don't like you can delete it and roll something else.

 

sure if you wait for 7 days =3 still waiting on my deletion so i can try a destroyer....

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Sykess   
2 hours ago, GhostX said:

Thanks


The one thing that I see making this game flounder is that we don't have a NA Dev team (or at least that's what I've been told, take what I say with a grain of rice). What's happening (AFAIK) is we complain here, the NCsoft team reports back to the KR dev team, we get a double layer of filtering for our feedback which I fear will make getting positive changes in the game far difficult. Instead of a mild uproar to get change we're going to have to raise a giant *Cricket*storm.

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Hanano   

I completely agree. The whole idea of a premium account contradicts the idea of paying per item in the Hongmoon store. If I pay for a premium account, I want to AT LEAST get a decent amount of Hongmoon coins with it, so I can buy myself an outfit or two (which will be available only during the times my account is premium), and maybe some Dragon Pouches or other premium junk.

 

This is just too greedy.

 

The most frustrating thing in my opinion is that although outfits in this game are permanent, the restriction on transferring them to other characters on the same account is horrible. And how they plan to fix it? Add another item to the Hongmoon store, which you will be able to buy with more real money, and which will allow you to make ONE OUTFIT tradeable within your account. ONE OUTFIT.

Personally, until we get some "free" outfits or Hongmoon points with the premium membership, and until the wardrobe is shareable with all characters on the same account for premium members, I'm not planning to renew my premium membership. There is just no reason to.

Edited by Hanano

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O M G.

 

I made a rough estimation of around 30euros for inventory, but its in reality 83euros. I was far far away from reality.

 

LOL.

 

I wondering if its possible to be more greedy :D

Edited by wootwoots

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and_rea   

I just have to say that all big amount of money is spent by who wants get everything from the start. Pouches to unlock the inventory slots are given for free in the Daily Dash, and the extra spin of premium makes more easy being able to get them, it just needs play the game regularly.

 

Me too have committed to the game for 1y+ premium, and as far as I can see, the so called "paywall" is more for who wants it all from day one. Free player too can get pouches from Daily Dash, it just needs be patient and play the game (almost) every day.

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niie   
10 minutes ago, and_rea said:

I just have to say that all big amount of money is spent by who wants get everything from the start. Pouches to unlock the inventory slots are given for free in the Daily Dash, and the extra spin of premium makes more easy being able to get them, it just needs play the game regularly.

 

Me too have committed to the game for 1y+ premium, and as far as I can see, the so called "paywall" is more for who wants it all from day one. Free player too can get pouches from Daily Dash, it just needs be patient and play the game (almost) every day.

 The daily dash bonus spin is worthless in the scheme of things. Because you can't go around the board again (or a new bonus board) once you have finished. This premium perk is 100% useless if you play the game regularly enough to warrant paying for premium to begin with. 

 

The pouches you receive from the daily dash are like throwing a deck chair off the Titanic. A mere 2 (TWO) pouches from the dash do nothing to alleviate any inventory space issues. They will do even less as the game matures. The paywall is definitely about who wants things quickly. But the premium perks and F2P model need to also be objectionably within reach in a reasonable amount of time. Considering the final inventory slot upgrade costs 50 pouches, that alone is over 2 years of Daily Dash on a SINGLE character.

 

The thread is about the basic financial model of the game as it stands right now. The simple truth is that things are too highly priced for what little value we receive. Unfortunately for NCSoft, they will not see this in hard numbers until after the Master/Initiate pack member's Premium months end and they see a severe lack of people purchasing premium going forward.

 

What works in Korea does not work in the West. We want more value for a game we pay monthly than those players in the Korea. I'm tired of hearing the refrain from the CMs of "no other region has that" or "Korea doesn't have it so we can't put it in here". The term "Localisation"  means to change a title to appeal to different locale and culture. If you merely wanted to translate a game, then say that. But NCWest has gone out of their way to emphasize that this is a Localisation. So part of that localisation is to alter the financial model AND the game itself to suit the locale and its players. So stop telling us that it isnt elsewhere. We KNOW its not in Korea, Taiwan, Japan or China. Just because its not there does not mean we don't NEED it here.

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4 hours ago, GhostX said:

 

Now if I am paying a monthly subscription to a game such as FFXIV. I get full access to bank and inventory from the start of the game.

 

Not actually true. You get two retainers with 100 inventory slots each and if you want more you pay an additional sub amount; you could even pay double the sub!

 

4 hours ago, GhostX said:

It takes 214 pouches to fully unlock your inventory and bank space. The cheapest way (and only way besides daily dash) to buy dragon pouches is on the cash store for 800NCoins ($10) for 23 Pouches. ( 214/23=9.3 -> 9.3 x $10US = $93US ) That is $93US (PER CHARACTER) to fully unlock a base feature in a game that I am subscribing to.

 

Games go free to play because they couldn't survive on a sub so they have to introduce these micro transactions for things like inventory expansion. These days subs are small bonuses and dont massively effect play or else it would be considered pay to win and that's a tag a f2p game doesn't want.

 

4 hours ago, GhostX said:

Until these changes are made you will not get another cent from me and I suggest the rest of BNS players do the same, speak with your wallets. Charging a consumer $29.95US per month (for just two characters, more if you play more Alts) for an MMO that has been out for years now is absolutely insane. I have been playing various MMO's since EQ1 and always pay sub fees to support the companies as its not cheap to make or maintain these games. But lets not kid ourselves, Blizzard was in rough shape until WOW came along and now they can throw money at developing games and movies because of the profits WOW brings in. They only charge $12US per month or so at their cheapest rate.

 

The sub fee model is dead and the only successful one is indeed World of Warcraft but that's basically because it happened at the right time and they still have enough players to justify it. New Blizzard games have been released with different models like B2P (Diablo and soon Overwatch) and f2p (Hearthstone and Heroes of the Storm). A common complaint is that people wont spend the $15/£10 because they'll only play a few days each month. Before you jump in and say FF14 is using a sub model they're using some dirty tricks too: as I said they have a sub for bank space - yes, a sub - not a one off fee, and they put previously obtained items in the cash shop too.

 

The standard sub fee price has not changed in over 10 years and people see it as too expensive. MMO games are incredibly expensive to run and require far more servers than say a MOBA due to the open world nature but income has not risen so you get models like f2p that give OPTIONAL perks in a sub and fairly steep prices for small things like bank space because that's the only way an MMO can survive in the market now.

 

Usually f2p models begin fair but then they tend to get more p2w because the cash dries up. So far it seems B&S has a reasonable one and who knows how long it will continue. If you dont feel premium status is worth it's while then just dont buy it. It's simple. If you want to 'support' them then buy a costume or something else each month. Asking for a 'buff' for premium makes it as good as required and puts off players if they feel trapped into paying.

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29 minutes ago, Saccharin said:

 

Not actually true. You get two retainers with 100 inventory slots each and if you want more you pay an additional sub amount; you could even pay double the sub!

 

 

You can expand your inventory space, and bank with out use of cash items my point was that it was all in game currency, retainers are mostly used for using the auction house and selling items. If i am paying a subscription i better not be expected to fork over another 60 bucks just for inventory space... that's ri*cricket*ingdiculous.... 

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2 minutes ago, LordLokai said:

 

You can expand your inventory space, and bank with out use of cash items my point was that it was all in game currency, retainers are mostly used for using the auction house and selling items. If i am paying a subscription i better not be expected to fork over another 60 bucks just for inventory space... that's ri*cricket*ingdiculous.... 

 Final Fantasy 14 you get two retainers at about 20 and they each have 100 slots and 20 AH spaces. You can expan that to a further 3-5 but you have to pay a monthly fee. No gil required.

Edited by Saccharin

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