Carthage

Quitting this game - PvP gives no feedback

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Carthage   

There is no feedback as to what's happening at all ever.

 

"Why did that guy just resist all my spells?"

"Why is he behind me and invisible?"

"Why can't I ever unfreeze?"

 

etc.

 

The game is so bad at telling players about it's PvP mechanics that I refuse to continue, even after getting near max level.

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Gratus   

It seems a little daunting at first, but you'll get into it. Level other characters (and your main), recognize patterns, look into other classes' skill trees by using bnstree.com for example. Once the frustration's over and you're familiar with the basic stuff, it starts to get really fun as you get to focus more on mindgames and match control.

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Fade   

So like almost every game. U could play another class to learn their skills or if reading is ur thing u could go over their skill tree. Or read a guide on them.... 

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Well, learn the other classes and maybe you'll know why... but you are jumping the gun, saying the game sucks because you don't know what you're doing yet.

Edited by Subpargamer

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Kutsuu   

There are status icons (for example you can see how many cold stacks you have to know when you'll be frozen), sounds and visual effects, and even contextual skills that pop up on your screen when available. All of the abilities which cause resistance/evasion/etc have visual effects.

 

I think the more appropriate thing for you to say was "I am not willing to spend the time learning the mechanics of this game, and therefore I'm quitting," as that would be a much better description of what's going on here. 

 

I can understand, honestly. The PVP in this game is much more difficult to become proficient at than any other MMO I can think of. It incorporates much more dependence on dexterity and reaction time than other MMOs, as well. It's definitely going to be a Niche game, while the majority of MMO gamers will look at titles like ESO, WoW, and FFXIV for their fix. 

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Carthage   

I would be fine learning other classes if I didn't have to go through a painfully boring week+ long grind just to be able to play them.

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Kutsuu   
Just now, Carthage said:

I would be fine learning other classes if I didn't have to go through a painfully boring week+ long grind just to be able to play them.

 

You can learn them without playing them. One option to do so is to spar with someone who plays a class you want to learn about, and join voice chat with them to talk about it. There are other ways to skin the cat, such as recording your fights and analyzing them afterwards with BNStree up in order to understand what your opponent was doing and formulate ways to counter it or prevent it. 

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Enamour   

You can even take time to just make a character and literally just read their skills at level 1. No need to level. You can also look at videos. For a while I was like "wtf sin always gets the jump on me" then I realized 2 things. First, they always land behind me when they did so (at the time I was playing BM) I blocked behind me and got Parry stun off. That felt immensely great because I learned it after getting my ass stomped in just 1 round of the match. The second thing was that I learned that little inhale breathing thing on sins was like a counter that put them in stealth.

 

You can actually learn a lot in a little amount of time if you're observant. Maybe it's because I played league so much as to why I notice small things rather quickly but I think anyone can do it regardless of background. You just need a will to try. If it's not there, this game is probably not for you.

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15 minutes ago, Kutsuu said:

 

You can learn them without playing them. One option to do so is to spar with someone who plays a class you want to learn about, and join voice chat with them to talk about it. There are other ways to skin the cat, such as recording your fights and analyzing them afterwards with BNStree up in order to understand what your opponent was doing and formulate ways to counter it or prevent it. 

You wouldn't happen to know how to fix the OBS: Admin error would you? I would like to do the record and review but I can't.

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Axciel   
29 minutes ago, Carthage said:

There is no feedback as to what's happening at all ever.

 

"Why did that guy just resist all my spells?"

"Why is he behind me and invisible?"

"Why can't I ever unfreeze?"

 

etc.

 

The game is so bad at telling players about it's PvP mechanics that I refuse to continue, even after getting near max level.

Learn to play issue

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Carthage   
1 minute ago, Axciel said:

Learn to play issue

 

There might be a good game here. I don't know.

 

I have no intention of sticking around to learn it when the game has no teaching tools and tells the player nothing about what is happening. Street fighter gives you more information with sound effects alone, with characters shouting out their move names.

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Can I ask one question, why announce that you're giving up/ quitting? 

 

If you don't like the game that's fine, it's your free time to spend as you please but I'm curious as to why announce it to everyone.

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Cogbyrn   
45 minutes ago, Carthage said:

 

There might be a good game here. I don't know.

 

I have no intention of sticking around to learn it when the game has no teaching tools and tells the player nothing about what is happening. Street fighter gives you more information with sound effects alone, with characters shouting out their move names.

 

Knowing the name of a move teaches you literally nothing about it, other than the ability to communicate what you're talking about to another person.  The animation of a move and its consequences are learned via in-game experience.

 

The onus is on you to find the information.  It can be frustrating when everything isn't spelled out for you, but it can also be intensely gratifying when you learn something on your own.  In one of my first arenas, I was playing an Assassin, and I realized I could see a Predator-like outline of him as he moved even while in stealth.  It was exciting to me to just discover that.  The other night, my ping was unplayable, so I jumped in Arenas and started to get a general feel for what combos were doing damage and when I could potentially escape them by focusing more on my health than actually winning.  

 

As someone else mentioned, if you don't want to take the time to put in the effort to learn the game, that's fine.  But the very experience you hate is loved by others.  And I also don't understand why you feel the need to announce you're quitting.  Just quit.  Or put your nose to the grindstone and learn the game any way you can, be it YouTube videos, making alts and analyzing abilities, reading PvP builds for other classes specifically against your class, etc.

 

No one is going to hold you hand.  You get to do this yourself.  Enjoy the independence, or if you don't like that sort of thing, don't try to take it away from those who do.

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Carthage   
47 minutes ago, Tteunaegi said:

Can I ask one question, why announce that you're giving up/ quitting? 

 

If you don't like the game that's fine, it's your free time to spend as you please but I'm curious as to why announce it to everyone.

I assume the devs browse their own forums occasionally

 

Just now, Cogbyrn said:

 

Knowing the name of a move teaches you literally nothing about it, other than the ability to communicate what you're talking about to another person.  The animation of a move and its consequences are learned via in-game experience.

 

The onus is on you to find the information.  It can be frustrating when everything isn't spelled out for you, but it can also be intensely gratifying when you learn something on your own.  In one of my first arenas, I was playing an Assassin, and I realized I could see a Predator-like outline of him as he moved even while in stealth.  It was exciting to me to just discover that.  The other night, my ping was unplayable, so I jumped in Arenas and started to get a general feel for what combos were doing damage and when I could potentially escape them by focusing more on my health than actually winning.  

 

As someone else mentioned, if you don't want to take the time to put in the effort to learn the game, that's fine.  But the very experience you hate is loved by others.  And I also don't understand why you feel the need to announce you're quitting.  Just quit.  Or put your nose to the grindstone and learn the game any way you can, be it YouTube videos, making alts and analyzing abilities, reading PvP builds for other classes specifically against your class, etc.

 

No one is going to hold you hand.  You get to do this yourself.  Enjoy the independence, or if you don't like that sort of thing, don't try to take it away from those who do.

 

It tells you what happened. If someone shouts teleport every time they teleport, I at least know that it's the same move they keep doing.

 

The onus should not be on the player to find the information, that's absolutely horrible design. "Here's some game pieces, figure it out" in a competitive setting is ebarassingly primitive and will just make people stop playing.

 

I'm willing to bet that the levelling process is overall hated by people who've already gone through it once.

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Cogbyrn   
1 minute ago, Carthage said:

I assume the devs browse their own forums occasionally

 

 

It tells you what happened. If someone shouts teleport every time they teleport, I at least know that it's the same move they keep doing.

 

The onus should not be on the player to find the information, that's absolutely horrible design. "Here's some game pieces, figure it out" in a competitive setting is ebarassingly primitive and will just make people stop playing.

 

I'm willing to bet that the levelling process is overall hated by people who've already gone through it once.

 

You haven't played many board games, I don't think.  "Here are the pieces, figure it out" sort of happens when you get to more complex games.  Take something even relatively simple, like Chaos in the Old World.  You have 4 Chaos Gods that you play as, each with a unique deck, models with unique decks, unique upgrade cards, and unique dial advancements.  Now, you could just pick a single god, have all of the information for that god, and then play the game.  You know how to play, you know what your god can do, but you have absolutely no idea what the other players can do.

 

In this scenario, does the game teach you?  Only after playing several games and watching things play out.  Or, you can read all of their upgrade cards, all of their region cards, all of their unit stats, and their dial advancements to think about what they are going to do and incorporate it into your play.

 

Blade and Soul teaches you about the game's mechanics as you level and play your class.  You learn about comboing, about moving, about different CC that is available, and that you can build into multiple different types of CC breaks.  You learn that when you see yourself use the same ability, it always has the same animation.  You learn the structure of the game.  Now, you have to go fill in the gaps to learn the other classes, either by slamming yourself into them and taking the time and effort to watch what is happening, or by going out and doing research on them.

 

It *isn't* bad design, we're just in an era of hand-holding when it comes to game design, and now much fewer people know how to think critically and figure games out themselves.  Do you think you have to call it bad because you don't feel inclined to do it, and for some reason feel like if it isn't bad design and you just aren't willing to put in the effort, you're bad/lazy?  Preferences are preferences.  Play what you like, don't waste your time doing something you don't.  That's fine.

 

But many people like this game, myself included.  I don't want to see it change because others couldn't be bothered to put the time in to learn things themselves.

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7 minutes ago, Carthage said:

I assume the devs browse their own forums occasionally

 

 

It tells you what happened. If someone shouts teleport every time they teleport, I at least know that it's the same move they keep doing.

 

The onus should not be on the player to find the information, that's absolutely horrible design. "Here's some game pieces, figure it out" in a competitive setting is ebarassingly primitive and will just make people stop playing.

 

I'm willing to bet that the levelling process is overall hated by people who've already gone through it once.

The devs are in Korea, and I kinda doubt they really put much care into the Na/Eu since it's a highly successful game in their area.

 

All NCSoft is is a distributor with no power over the patches. We're going to follow the Korean build.

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Mars505   
11 minutes ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

But many people like this game, myself included.  I don't want to see it change because others couldn't be bothered to put the time in to learn things themselves.

 

THose people have already left. Nothing to worry about there.

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Carthage   
57 minutes ago, Cogbyrn said:

 

You haven't played many board games, I don't think.  "Here are the pieces, figure it out" sort of happens when you get to more complex games.  Take something even relatively simple, like Chaos in the Old World.  You have 4 Chaos Gods that you play as, each with a unique deck, models with unique decks, unique upgrade cards, and unique dial advancements.  Now, you could just pick a single god, have all of the information for that god, and then play the game.  You know how to play, you know what your god can do, but you have absolutely no idea what the other players can do.

 

In this scenario, does the game teach you?  Only after playing several games and watching things play out.  Or, you can read all of their upgrade cards, all of their region cards, all of their unit stats, and their dial advancements to think about what they are going to do and incorporate it into your play.

 

Blade and Soul teaches you about the game's mechanics as you level and play your class.  You learn about comboing, about moving, about different CC that is available, and that you can build into multiple different types of CC breaks.  You learn that when you see yourself use the same ability, it always has the same animation.  You learn the structure of the game.  Now, you have to go fill in the gaps to learn the other classes, either by slamming yourself into them and taking the time and effort to watch what is happening, or by going out and doing research on them.

 

It *isn't* bad design, we're just in an era of hand-holding when it comes to game design, and now much fewer people know how to think critically and figure games out themselves.  Do you think you have to call it bad because you don't feel inclined to do it, and for some reason feel like if it isn't bad design and you just aren't willing to put in the effort, you're bad/lazy?  Preferences are preferences.  Play what you like, don't waste your time doing something you don't.  That's fine.

 

But many people like this game, myself included.  I don't want to see it change because others couldn't be bothered to put the time in to learn things themselves.

 

I have played plenty of board games. You just accept that the first couple games are learning experiences.

 

That may sound exactly like this game, but it isn't.

 

When you play board games for the first time, the players announce exactly what they are doing and the game rules that let them do it. You learn what they are doing. Once you know and experience this, you can then try and stop it.

 

It's like having an enemy flash red when they take damage. It tells the player that what they just did works. It's important feedback to the learning process.

 

This game does absolutely none of that. Don't be a stupid shill and say "oh just think critically!". This goes well beyond critical thinking. This is straight up hiding knowledge from the player. You don't know what your opponent is doing. You see "stunned", the game gives you no information on why you were stunned. Perhaps they countered what you did? Perhaps they can do it at a certain range? Perhaps it's just a move that always stuns? Different parts of different moves counter everything you do. You don't know what the properties of their moves do. You don't know the cooldowns on their moves. You don't know what moves they are currently doing.

 

The best part? Lag can ruin the whole thing even further as animations don't sync up to actions.

 

It is HORRIBLE design. Every. Single. Other. Game. Does. It. Better.

 

And then if you want to learn it, you can't learn it without playing it because of the afforementioned reasons. You can barely see the animations of their actions. You have to play it yourself if you want to actually learn what's going on, which requires levelling it up which takes dozens of hours of boring as paint level grinding. 

This game is not good enough to warrant this kind of time investment. 

 

This game is the absolute worst game at giving player feedback I have ever played. It's worse than the *cricket*ing souls series, which is built on this kind of bullshit.


 

 

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Cogbyrn   

Look, I get it.  This game isn't for you.  It doesn't give enough feedback for you.  I don't know what you want, but it seems like any time anyone does anything against you, you want the tooltip of the used ability to pop up on your screen.  You want to know the cooldown, the duration of CC/resist, the cost, the range, a small video of the animation playing alongisde it, everything.  You want the game to go the extra mile to illustrate every little thing that happens to you in the arena, so you can learn without having to go out and seek information.

 

You know how I know you want all this?

 

" You don't know what your opponent is doing. You see "stunned", the game gives you no information on why you were stunned. Perhaps they countered what you did? Perhaps they can do it at a certain range? Perhaps it's just a move that always stuns? Different parts of different moves counter everything you do. You don't know what the properties of their moves do. You don't know the cooldowns on their moves. You don't know what moves they are currently doing. "

 

That is so much information that is impossible to consume at once, that if you got what you truly wanted, you'd be so overwhelmed that you'd still quit.

 

As far as not being able to learn it without playing it, that's a matter of opinion.  You need to be observant, slow yourself down, and truly watch what is happening.  It's so easy to fall into patterns.  You see Class X, you do Opening Y.  Most MMOs you just do a thing and it kills a class, or that class is considered OP and you all but throw in the towel because who could beat an OP class?  And if you lose, it's because they're OP, right?  As it turns out, if you stop and watch for very specific things, you start to see details.  You need to disconnect yourself from the desire to just win everything all the time, and take a moment to learn.  Then you actually learn.  Otherwise the round ends and you have no idea what killed you.  Many people take this opportunity to claim the game is at fault.  But is it?

 

There are many YouTube videos that do an insanely good job at stopping and showing you details.  I watched a video by Intro the other day on the FM vs. Destroyer match-up.  He would pause the video, explain a situation, then resume so you could watch it in practice.  This game more than others allows helpful YouTubers the opportunity to truly go above and beyond to explain things, and there are those who are out there doing it.  Find them for your class. Learn.  Practice.  Improve.

 

Or, like I said, don't.  Leave and play a game you enjoy.  Not every game has to be a thing you like.  This game doesn't seem to be a thing you like.  You don't want to look into other classes.  You don't want to level other classes.  You don't want to have to.  You don't want to research.  You don't want to have to.

 

That's fine.  Truly.

 

But that doesn't make it a bad game.  It's just a game you don't like.  There are plenty of games I don't like.  LoL, for example.  I think it's garbage.  But would I change it?  No, because it's obviously doing something people enjoy.  I just don't.

 

So at the end of the day, I'm just trying to position the game in a way to help you understand why some of us really like it, because you don't have to fight it, or us.  You just have to acknowledge you don't like it and move on.  No sweat off either of our backs.

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Carthage   

Thanks for hyperbolizing what I want in a strawman.

 

I want them to go from nothing to something, and apparently that is asking the world.

 

 

 

 

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Wow, someone is mentally challenged. You have full description of all skills. What you want (and suggest few posts higher) is everyone and everything, game itself included explaining every single thing to you so you don't have to exert your brain. Oh, I guess there's the issue...

You want game to just freeze in the middle of pvp and tell you "Your enemy used Decoy. By being attacked during 2 second window he gets teleported behind you and has been put into Stealth mode". Like what the hell? Just quit lazy 13 year old. Just go, never come back. You just suck and you try to blame it on "lack of information". You clearly know how to talk big despite being sh...oe, so I guess you have huge inferiority complex that you try to patch with distorting reality and unjustifiably huge ego. Any damage on your ego is being rationalized in the most idiotic way possible. Making thread here also suggests you crave for attention. It all fits going by Adler's first definition of inferiority complex (well, it was about 7 year old kids going to school, but in terms of intelligence you can be counted as one).

Edited by Nebuchadnezzar

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When you Player Versus Player you must remain calm! It is a game of who can complete their abilities with interruptions! When Players are aimed at achieving an ability on one another it tends to be a race to whom can control when the ability is performed! If you can provide support with completing these maneuvers then you can become a dominant force in the genre! It is really quite simple! Have your performed ability prepared even if it is interrupted! Mechanics are a marvelous feature right?! Is there anything else I can help you with?!

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Grevier   

Read your skills.

Most Blade Master (Just to name a class but it's usually the QQ class) don't know that they can escape Immobilizations/Snares by backdashing or that Second win can be skilled to free from stuns/dazes.

 

Seriously people, LEARN TO READ.

Edited by Grevier

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