Zeykes

Proper dungeon etiquette

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Zeykes   
9 minutes ago, Alukah said:

I'm gonna admit I have limited knowledge of other classes, so I have to ask, what's the downside of having the cat as main tank by default? Seems like any AoE can be avoided by just general awareness of where the boss is facing, and the cat wont be spinning around either.

Whether the tank is a cat or a player isn't of importance in the current content (aside from Blackwyrm, obviously), but the general idea is that a player tank is more in control of the boss than your cat is. What I mean is that should a tactic require the boss to be moved somewhere, or face a certain direction, a player tank would easily be able to do this whereas a summoner cat would not. The current PvE content (again, aside from Blackwyrm) isn't difficult/specific enough for this to matter, but in the future it might be required.

 

P.S. I'll admit I haven't played a lot on other servers to know much about the content to come, but this is me using my general PvE knowledge from my experience with previous MMOs.

Edited by Zeykes

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Smallpox   
3 hours ago, Alukah said:

I'm gonna admit I have limited knowledge of other classes, so I have to ask, what's the downside of having the cat as main tank by default? Seems like any AoE can be avoided by just general awareness of where the boss is facing, and the cat wont be spinning around either.

 

For the current bosses, there isn't much difference between a kitty tank and a player tank if you're just doing DPS. In addition to Zeykey's post, having a KFM/BD tank greatly benefits the tank. As a KFM, I do much more damage being a tank than using a straight DPS rotation. I get 3 focus back on a counter, in addition to letting me use iron shoulder right after if I feel like CCing the boss by myself. On a dodge, I unlock searing palm, which gives me (and anyone hitting the boss) a massive crit boost for 10 seconds. If I can get 4 of these to go off before the previous buff expires, I get 100% crit chance for 10 seconds. That's 10 seconds of guaranteed 2F nonstop and healing from the amethyst. If we dodge successfully 3 times within 24 seconds of each dodge (we need to iframe the attack), we get 6 seconds (6 WHOLE SECONDS) of iframes to do whatever we want. 

 

I'd also assume you want your cat to attack rather than sit there like a log, but that's just my opinion. Honestly, a kitty tanking isn't bad;  we can (mostly) get these benefits by sitting on top of the cat, but if there is a dedicated tank in your party, please let them tank. (That being said, very few KFM/BM's I've met actually do tank, so it's probably a good idea to ask first if you're wondering.)

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Hiyakira   

Ok so i have a question! I play a FM and i keep getting aggro from bosses, hell i even get aggro from Poh 24 man. Im not using threat generating skills (that i know of) nor i have threat increase gear. On my RMB i even specced o the one that does not increase threat, which suck for me since it uses more focus. I'm sure im doing something wrong here, i cant be simply out dps'ing everyone.

 

EDIT: Great post man, very informative :3

 

Edited by Hiyakira

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Smallpox   
33 minutes ago, Hiyakira said:

Ok so i have a question! I play a FM and i keep getting aggro from bosses, hell i even get aggro from Poh 24 man. Im not using threat generating skills (that i know of) nor i have threat increase gear. On my RMB i even specced o the one that does not increase threat, which suck for me since it uses more focus. I'm sure im doing something wrong here, i cant be simply out dps'ing everyone.

 

EDIT: Great post man, very informative :3

 

To be honest, I think you are just out DPSing everyone. We aren't exactly high on the DPS ladder and have very limited amounts of burst damage, so if we aren't specced to tank, we probably won't hold aggro. Best option here is to go into ice prison when you get aggro'd so the boss stays still for a few seconds so that other players can take aggro from you. 

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Area specific self-revival charms are available at the general vendor for extremely cheap. The chances of you needing one may be very slim but due to the low cost and potential benefit of a 1-up (with a cd), you should probably tote a few around. One quest reward will buy you more than enough to last you. Moonwater ones, for example, cost 1s and work even in Poharan. While most parties are either going to make it or break it (in any dungeon), there are the few odd cases out where instant revivals can make the difference between a failed run or completion.

 

As for having to move bosses; there are a few circumstances that might warrant the bosses moving. For example, imagine this very likely scenario on Dokumo: It does the red circle webbing move and for whatever reason, most of your party DPSes through it even if they are melee. Now they are all strung up via webbing and there's no DPS being done by them. With a tank sitting there, all of them are hit by her subsequent spinning attack which deals a decent chunk of damage. If you have a tank that isn't sitting right there (or webbed up) , she will move to the tank and do her spinning attack which ideally gets blocked by the tank and the only thing that happens to the webbed team mates is them falling down and rushing to the boss for MOAR MAD DEEEPES. Rinse, repeat. This kind of situation can apply elsewhere as well where you need to lead the boss elsewhere while your team mates stop crawling around on the ground etc.

 

Or well, you can let them get hit and laugh at them or get webbed up yourself/crawl around on the ground/wait for someone else to take aggro. Whichever works cuz screw this tank stuff.

 

Edit: If you aren't on top of Poharan when she does her fire ring bomb and let it expand, I don't think you even need invincibility frames. You can just do a dash/rush skill through the fire as it moves closer to you. You can then proceed to back step the flame when it comes from behind.

Edited by 875199_1452550424
Reasons

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Agreed on rushing. There was a time I just happened to step right onto the spot the firewall spawned on because someone rushed ahead, and I got killed by it. Most of the party made it past in time though. One guy ressed me after the Terracotta General died, but then I got glitched and ended up falling forever in some blue space. By the time the textures finally loaded properly, the party'd already went into the boss room, locking me out of the boss fight. Even after I'd told them my game glitched out.

 

And yesterday one idiot rushed far ahead of the entire party, locked the other five of us out of the Terracotta General fight and got rekt by it. No one bothered to ress Mr. Leeroy Jenkins.

 

Something I want to add regarding auctions:

- Don't bid on something you don't need when others might need it more. Like the Infernal accessories for example. I know they make great fodder, but spare a thought for the people who need them for breakthrough. Well, at least they're easy to get...

- DO pass on a item if you don't want it. Don't just sit there waiting for the thing to time out; it's a total waste of time when there are like 5 or 6 items queued up after it.

Edited by fatalystic

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Careyni   

One item I've found useful to have on me as well is mass revival charms. Convenient item to save from a wipe if you lose half the party in a fight.

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Engete   
1 hour ago, fatalystic said:

Something I want to add regarding auctions:

- Don't bid on something you don't need when others might need it more. Like the Infernal accessories for example. I know they make great fodder, but spare a thought for the people who need them for breakthrough. Well, at least they're easy to get...

- DO pass on a item if you don't want it. Don't just sit there waiting for the thing to time out; it's a total waste of time when there are like 5 or 6 items queued up after it.

oh, yea... that one who bid all the item...

usually it doesn't so bad, but it getting annoying when someone really need that item but he still purposely increase the bid just because... ~~

 

and it seems not all player do know what pass is really mean... they only know how to bid, but don't know how to pass... lol ~~

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Zeykes   
15 hours ago, 875199_1452550424 said:

Edit: If you aren't on top of Poharan when she does her fire ring bomb and let it expand, I don't think you even need invincibility frames. You can just do a dash/rush skill through the fire as it moves closer to you. You can then proceed to back step the flame when it comes from behind.

Yup, this is correct. From what I've noticed as KFM, any dash/leap ability negates the ring damage completely and I'll recommend any class that has these kinds of abilities to use them, as i-frames are more important on her other abilities.

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Shadovvv   

This should be a given but DON'T pull the boss next to a reviving player. I use Lotus of Escape to rescue my near dead party members but my entire party just runs toward us as I infuse chi.

 

Another thing to add about patience: DON'T make the immediate assumption that people are afk or whatever because they're not in the dungeon yet. They could be either managing their gear, or be stuck in abysmal loading times.

Edited by Shadovvv

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Azharzel   

I'd like to add something to this topic.
Forcemasters, please if you get aggro from the boss, DO NOT run around trying to flee from him. You are not making yourself any safer by doing this when most of the the classes in game are melee as they can't even hit the boss to get aggro back if they can't reach him cuz you are running about jumping and shit like a retard. Best thing to do, iframe the boss attacks by either going through him so he spins but doesn't move, or stay still and idk use your ice protection skill thing that absorbs damage while the other classes steal aggro from you.

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MrRaz   
On 2/5/2016 at 3:10 AM, Engete said:

oh, yea... that one who bid all the item...

usually it doesn't so bad, but it getting annoying when someone really need that item but he still purposely increase the bid just because... ~~

 

and it seems not all player do know what pass is really mean... they only know how to bid, but don't know how to pass... lol ~~

Had a guy bidding me up on an outfit on infernal lord, I let him have it for 1 gold since there was another one to bid for waiting. So the next one comes around and can you guess what. The guy that won the previous one decides to try bidding me up so I let him have the second one for 75s. Ended up with no outfit but a nice 60s extra in my account while the as.swipe got a second outfit he can't do anything with other than discard/take up space in inventory.

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Sazie   

Nice~  happy to see someone actually saying something about etiquette.  Some just have none...  


I want to add on to something someone said earlier, if you got something say or want something done in a certain way, please say so before the run starts.  If you'll be afk a sec for bathroom, a tornado ripped your roof off, say something.  If you don't want to rush through, say something.  I will just leave and F8 again, if your way doesn't suit me.  Otherwise I will go about my way, which how most 45s do dungeons using F8.

 

Please don't start calling me stupid or an idiot because you are the only that didn't survive a room full of spiders in Skitters.  (A 44 28k hp BM with stage 5 Awaken Infernal weapon)  Or I ran straight to the boss in Skyhaven and you're the only one that die mid-way for some reason with all mobs on me.  (A 45 39k hp destroyer die while a blade dancer with less hp & an Infernal sword managed to make it.)  I F8 to do my dailies, I don't mind leaving to find another group with similar mind set as myself.  

 

I don't see myself as a elitist.  I don't mind running the 4 dungeon with 44s, while some (or most) 45s will just leave group.  So try not to be a sore loser, man (or woman) up and keep going yeah?

 

 

Edited by Sazie

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Cynic   
On 2/4/2016 at 0:27 PM, Alukah said:

 

Honestly I trust my cat's tanking more than any other player tank, both for dungeons and open world (except blackwyrm for obvious reasons), whenever I trust other people with tanking I end up pulling aggro, like 90% of the time, the cat wont lose aggro unless I delay my Q and wont die as long as it's getting attacked.

 

That's because you're a dick, like all your half-breed midget kin (Just kidding...kind of). 

 

You pull aggro because you either use the cat, have that ridiculous-for-non-KFM/BM threat-bracelet, or have a weapon which is much more superior to the tank's.  

 

On 2/4/2016 at 0:34 PM, Zeykes said:

I understand that you'd rather have your cat tank if the supposed player tank isn't up to par, which is quite fair imo. Just give em a chance and see what they're made of and if they can't tank properly, you're in your full right to use the cat instead. Also keep in mind that most KFM/BM players out there don't actually want to tank, but rather spec dps instead. So even if there's a BM/KFM in your party, it doesn't necessarily mean they're there to tank. I'd suggest asking at the beginning if someone's planning to tank, and if not, use your cat.

 

It's not 'fair' at all. How do you define 'not tanking properly'? Knockdowns significantly reduce threat, and tanks are humans, mistakes can be made even by a good player. Every single BM/KFM player 'wants' to tank. Every single one. It's because even if we want to DPS, tanking is the best way to do it. It also gives us control, so we can optimize our rotations based on the boss's pattern. Even good things like double-ccs are annoying, because I'm here intuitively dodging the red, but it turns out it's fine. In that, I lose DPS, and sometimes (I'm still trying to figure this part out) a boss will use his move immediately after the double-cc. So instead of him skipping to the next part of his pattern, it's just delayed. This supremely screws me over. BM's five-point-strike's DPS ability and threat-generating DPS ability are the same. Every non-PvP BM will also go for threat cyclone. Unless a weapon is 1-tier above the tank's, or you have a crazy attack gem, he'll rarely lose aggro. When he does, it'll be because he was knocked down. He can easily get his threat back, if those punk-ass summoners don't immediately say "me me cat cat go go".

 

On 2/4/2016 at 0:38 PM, Alukah said:

I'm gonna admit I have limited knowledge of other classes, so I have to ask, what's the downside of having the cat as main tank by default? Seems like any AoE can be avoided by just general awareness of where the boss is facing, and the cat wont be spinning around either.

   

Never really seen a situation where a cat holds aggro successfully without the boss moving around. Eventually, something happens, boss goes to the summoner, the little punk starts running around. My best experiences with summoners have been when I'm always holding aggro, but if something goes wrong, they temporarily grab aggro. Then it returns. I have no idea what Summoner skills are, so my impression of "good summoner" vs. "bad summoner" just came down to this. Good is useful with the big green nature CC thing. Good is useful with tanking when things go wrong (lots of spawns to deal with, people dead etc). Good is healing when the tank rushes through a dungeon, to kill the 40 mobs together. Bad is "I DPS with my big shiny true siren, My cat tank". Another downside is that you lessen overall DPS if you have a KFM or BM in your group. 

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Zeykes   
On 2/10/2016 at 7:00 AM, Cynic said:

It's not 'fair' at all. How do you define 'not tanking properly'? Knockdowns significantly reduce threat, and tanks are humans, mistakes can be made even by a good player. Every single BM/KFM player 'wants' to tank. Every single one. It's because even if we want to DPS, tanking is the best way to do it. It also gives us control, so we can optimize our rotations based on the boss's pattern. Even good things like double-ccs are annoying, because I'm here intuitively dodging the red, but it turns out it's fine. In that, I lose DPS, and sometimes (I'm still trying to figure this part out) a boss will use his move immediately after the double-cc. So instead of him skipping to the next part of his pattern, it's just delayed. This supremely screws me over. BM's five-point-strike's DPS ability and threat-generating DPS ability are the same. Every non-PvP BM will also go for threat cyclone. Unless a weapon is 1-tier above the tank's, or you have a crazy attack gem, he'll rarely lose aggro. When he does, it'll be because he was knocked down. He can easily get his threat back, if those punk-ass summoners don't immediately say "me me cat cat go go".

Naturally tanking is a DPS-increase to both BM and KFM if done properly. I was referring to the majority out there, who don't yet feel like they're skilled enough to continue dps-ing whilst having to block/counter boss attacks, as well as dodging. As for CC I believe the only boss in the game currently where CC is unacceptable is Blackwyrm and the two Terrors. This is because these bosses have much quicker attack animations than other bosses, thus you need to predict, not react. Otherwise I find if a boss is CC'd and its attack pattern is delayed as a result usually isn't a problem because their attack animations are slow enough for me to react to them so I don't waste i-frames.

Also on a side note: I believe BMs got an additional stage in Cyclone this patch. This new stage is identical to the threat one, except without the threat part (which gives non-tank BMs a good Cyclone option).

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Shadovvv   

-DO Iframe Venom Thrasher's roar. Don't put faith in Siren Belt or Soul Shield to negate it.

-DON'T kill the automatons accompanying Blood Mane.

-DO drive the automatons accompanying Blood Mane so they can bleed and kill him faster. He has 5.4 million HP and higher than Hae Munjin for a reason.

Edited by Shadovvv

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MrRaz   

New addition I found today trying to complete Giant Killer and Firestarter Achievements

 

DO read the lobby description and DON'T join unless you meet the requirements.

 

Also something I do when rushing low level dungeons for daylies:

ASK if its ok to rush the dungeon if not leave and re-que or finish it at normal pace

DO kill the mobs on the way to the bosses so that the low level players don't get swarmed by the huge group of mobs you just pulled.

LET low level players get the loot if they need it. Its a lot easier for you to run it again especially if they are trying to get a specific weapon.

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Shadovvv   
4 hours ago, MrRaz said:

LET low level players get the loot if they need it. Its a lot easier for you to run it again especially if they are trying to get a specific weapon.

I'm in a Bloodshade Harbor party, being the only one with Moonwater Arena while everyone else has Bloodshade or Endless Tower. The entire party tries to roll on the Bloodshade soul shields despite already having them.

 

Yeah, maybe you want better rolls, but ever heard of common courtesy? I'm willing to pass up my rolls because I'm not fond of wasting my money or anyone else's money, but jeez are people that damn greedy?

Edited by Shadovvv

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Windy   

Nice post ,they are common sense things and its just great when you see a comunication in party and ppls help out each others even if they left behind for some reason. I usually send cat to tank if i take aggro from mob or if i am asked to .I'll watch out from now on the air combos . Usefull post ,ty !

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DeKus   

Actually other people can hit airborne targets, but obviously you need the "reach" to actually hit them, doing an AoE on the ground will obviously not hit anything in the air (most melee attacks are not locking on, but actually swing "as you face"). As FM (probably similar for SUM) I do not care about enemies being air-borned, I just continue to launch my lock-on skills. But still I agree that different CC chaining (usually it's a follow up to daze, knock-down or stun) is highly preferable for mentioned reasons.

 

I think you forgot a few etiquette details:

  • Do not run dungeons with broken weapons, be honest and tell the party if it broke due to too many "injuries"... usually it's fine to have 1 or 2 broken weapons, but running bloodshade with a party at which a weapon replacement (because the main weapon broke) with just 160 ATK draws aggro, is not doable... because when ~220ATK is the highest dps, you will fail (at least supply chain and bloodshade) ^-^
  • Participate, I can't care less if you are low or have a low weapon... but if you are just going to lie dead around or even standing AFK at the dungeon entrance to leech the auctions (and cause all auctions to time-out), you are just being an unwelcomed dick
  • Either bid or decline... it just makes everything faster! (Tip: you can decline pending auctions in advance... sadly you can't set a starting bid in advance :()
    Please remember that an open auction window (even when Y and N are greyed out) blocks the Y button on a QWERTZ (Y and Z are swapped) keyboard until the auction window is closed (either due to auction end or manually closing it)... well better solution would be to replace the bid-Y with another key like Z or J... but well... I have failed to find an option for that

Btw. I am really shocked how unsocial this dungeon system is... not even a "hi", "thanks" or "goodbye" or whatever is usually written. I feel like chatting with bots most of the time. How far have standards dropped in recent MMOGs?

Edited by DeKus

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Vexe   

TERA was also affected by people prefering to stay silent, but B&S is especially bad. People got used to being loners (coz the game allows it and doesn't promote teamwork pre-Poharan 6) and don't even say a word. You rarely even see people talk in towns, unless some Crimson-Cerulean pair kills each other and starts chatting.

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