LETS TALK ARTIFICIAL/ARBITRARY DIFFICULTY.

[Tjaranis]

23 minutes ago, TempSol said:

to add to other peoples comment you making it sound like because this "newer" games were using system that your more familiar with or were more recent to become familar with you creates a hindering experience for you. BnS may be published by NCsoft buts it coders/developers/studios are entirely different people and tbh Blade and soul was developed back in like 2007 in a korean studio before they had any idea of some of the newer stuff you talking about. Everyone has uses these things in fighting games and mmos for a long time and BnS system doesn't deviate far from it other than just how many keys you get and how you can track the keys visual.  I'll go with Enamour and some of the others you are choosing to spit words out of your  mouth to fit your needs and to sound smart for how this game doesn't adjust to your needs. It's fine and very robust system that has been and still being polished for all classes and continuing enjoyable. If you going to enter the conversation don't pick such junevile points of how it doesn't make sense. Find where the disconnects are in the core mechanics and how they don't translate to you and than we  can talk but for me I know it's a challenge especially on a new fighter class this time around instead of a summoner but I don't have any aversion to any combat scenarios, it's a challenge and one that can always be surmounted, 

i already did.

i even gave a VERY "normal people should understand this" explanation of the base issue i find in the game... yet some people dont seem to have the game knowledge or experience to understand even the concept of what i am talking about :/

no evil intend in the words, i oftend forget that it is very rare gamers use the time and effort to truly understand and analyze mechanical aspects of games, especially in its design view.

 

anyway have a nice day.

 

btw: i was never talking about having issue's learning or using a class, i played too many games on too high a level for it to be a issue of difficulty to do; which i have stated too many times to understand how people are still using the "you just suck, get good" card -.-

its almost like a "godwins law" for gaming at this point -.-

[Tjaranis]

FOR INFO

(Since i will stop using more time explaining this, since there is enough for someone with the knowledge by just reading what is already said)

 

It makes me sad to try to start a conversation about concepts of mechanical systems and designs within the game, then to see people simply lacking enough game knowledge and experience to even comprehend the concept itself. :/

i have come to realise that it simply is a matter of that lacking knowledge which makes it impossible to actually discuss the concept, which i have brought up, with the general forum user.

 

Anyway thanks for trying to those that did.

I will stop answering unless people should come with some actual arguments in the discussion. (when i check the forum at some point again)

 

Besides that I hope some devs will come across this post since they got the knowledge and experience to understand its concepts and hopefully derive some ideas and thoughts for future patches or games ^^

 

Have a nice day everyone.

[Kutsuu]

What a joke! You've already told us that you haven't played at max level, or in any pvp above silver, yet you say everyone in this thread is too inexperienced at B&S to comprehend your manifesto of "Let's turn B&S into Aion." If you could see past the visions of grandeur, you may realize that you aren't some prodigy that can't be understood by the dirty commoners... This isn't some unique insight, and you're not moses writing down the word of baby jesus. You're just a green new player who is having a hard time with the skill curve and wants it to be more like a game you've already learned. There's nothing wrong with that, but let's call a spade a spade. Please do yourself a favor by leveling up and getting some real experience. I'm sure on the Aion forums, where you are undoubtedly a god among men, you'd wall of text all over some new player who hasn't even hit max level hit and starts posting that Aion should play just like Rift (or whatever their last MMO was). 

[Tjaranis]

23 hours ago, Kutsuu said:

What a joke! You've already told us that you haven't played at max level, or in any pvp above silver, yet you say everyone in this thread is too inexperienced at B&S to comprehend your manifesto of "Let's turn B&S into Aion." If you could see past the visions of grandeur, you may realize that you aren't some prodigy that can't be understood by the dirty commoners... This isn't some unique insight, and you're not moses writing down the word of baby jesus. You're just a green new player who is having a hard time with the skill curve and wants it to be more like a game you've already learned. There's nothing wrong with that, but let's call a spade a spade. Please do yourself a favor by leveling up and getting some real experience. I'm sure on the Aion forums, where you are undoubtedly a god among men, you'd wall of text all over some new player who hasn't even hit max level hit and starts posting that Aion should play just like Rift (or whatever their last MMO was). 

I am sorry you didn’t understand what I said, I will try to explain it.

 

Your experience and knowledge about games and game mechanics is lacking too much to understand concepts, which is not specific cases of a specific already existing mechanic.

The level of your character is irrelevant to the discussion because it doesn’t matter if we are talking lvl 1 characters are lvl 45.

The general concept in discussion will be the same.

 

Your argument of levels meaning anything is like saying; that multiplying something has different general rules applied to it depending if the number is just bigger, and that unless you have done multiplications with very large numbers you cannot start to understand the general rules of multiplication.

It is an ignorant statement, which is born out of lack of basic understanding of general concepts, which comes from a lack of general knowledge and experience on the subject, which is what I was stating.

 

To keep trying to explain how, as an example, an A* algorithm works to some one that barely got a grip of how general graph theory functions is pointless, because even if the person wants to understand that person simply can’t.

This is what I realized when discussing this whole subject. It is not that people doesn’t want to, but that you are incapable of understanding the subject because you don’t have the pre-knowledge needed to understand what it even is that we are talking about.

 

There is also no shame in lacking knowledge or experience, so there is no reason to be angry about being told that this is the case. However, it is smart to keep it in mind when engaging in conversations that oneself might not have the knowledge or experience to comprehend the subject and therefore stop oneself from simply becoming unpleasant as a response to the frustration it might course.

As an example of this: personally, I have a hard time understanding that others might not have the pre-knowledge. Which lead to my frustration that they cannot understand something I view as extremely simple which then can make me unpleasant. I need to keep this in mind and which is what I am doing with these statements, by simply stopping the discussion which is going nowhere because of this disparity.

It was actually a close friend, that pointed this out for me and made me realize that this was the general problem.

 

Anyway have a very nice day and hope this made it more clear :)

 

 

[Kutsuu]

7 minutes ago, Tjaranis said:

 

 

I am sorry you didn’t understand what I said, I will try to explain it.

 

Your experience and knowledge about games and game mechanics is lacking too much to understand concepts, which is not specific cases of a specific already existing mechanic.

The level of your character is irrelevant to the discussion because it doesn’t matter if we are talking lvl 1 characters are lvl 45.

The general concept in discussion will be the same.

 

Your argument of levels meaning anything is like saying; that multiplying something has different general rules applied to it depending if the number is just bigger, and that unless you have done multiplications with very large numbers you cannot start to understand the general rules of multiplication.

It is an ignorant statement, which is born out of lack of basic understanding of general concepts, which comes from a lack of general knowledge and experience on the subject, which is what I was stating.

 

To keep trying to explain how, as an example, an A* algorithm works to some one that barely got a grip of how general graph theory functions is pointless, because even if the person wants to understand that person simply can’t.

This is what I realized when discussing this whole subject. It is not that people doesn’t want to, but that you are incapable of understanding the subject because you don’t have the pre-knowledge needed to understand what it even is that we are talking about.

 

There is also no shame in lacking knowledge or experience, so there is no reason to be angry about being told that this is the case. However, it is smart to keep it in mind when engaging in conversations that oneself might not have the knowledge or experience to comprehend the subject and therefore stop oneself from simply becoming unpleasant as a response to the frustration it might course.

As an example of this: personally, I have a hard time understanding that others might not have the pre-knowledge. Which lead to my frustration that they cannot understand something I view as extremely simple which then can make me unpleasant. I need to keep this in mind and which is what I am doing with these statements, by simply stopping the discussion which is going nowhere because of this disparity.

It was actually a close friend, that pointed this out for me and made me realize that this was the general problem.

 

Anyway have a very nice day and hope this made it more clear :)

 

 

 

What I (and everyone else in this thread) have been saying to you the whole time is that you don't have a good enough grasp on how this game works to make decisions on how it should work. You want mechanics from other games because these are too hard or confusing for you (IE, stances are too hard). I've been playing MMOs and PVP games in general at the very least as long as you have - since I also played the first MMOs and have been gaming ever since. Your insinuation that everyone on this forum is too dumb to understand your "elevated" thought process is ridiculous. Thus the pages of ridicule. 

[Tjaranis]

15 minutes ago, Kutsuu said:

 

What I (and everyone else in this thread) have been saying to you the whole time is that you don't have a good enough grasp on how this game works to make decisions on how it should work. You want mechanics from other games because these are too hard or confusing for you (IE, stances are too hard). I've been playing MMOs and PVP games in general at the very least as long as you have - since I also played the first MMOs and have been gaming ever since. Your insinuation that everyone on this forum is too dumb to understand your "elevated" thought process is ridiculous. Thus the pages of ridicule. 

 

 

You are completely wrong.

You assume i find them too hard, which i stated more times than you can count that isnt the case.

Again, you simply lack the experience and knowledge to even comprehend what I am talking about, therefore the conversation is pointless.

It is like you trying to explain geometry and gravity to a young child, no matter what you say the child will understand nothing of it, because the child simply doesn’t have the experience or the knowledge to comprehend what the concepts you are talking about is.

When that is said the big difference is that the child would properly not tell you that you just don’t know because you haven’t played enough with HIS play-car to know why it would fall down the hill he is putting it on. That you need to play more with it on the hill to be able to try to explain to him why physics work as they do.

 

Which is what you keep doing to me -.-

I am talking general concepts, which applies to all games. You are talking individual fractioned aspects of a specific game case, and you do not seem to have the knowledge or experience to translated it into a general concept understanding.

 

edit:

btw:

Something is not ridiculous because you lack the knowledge, intellect, experience or for other reasons can't comprehend it. That is a very narrow-minded few.

[Saddio]

Arbitrary/Artificial difficulty? Master player? Oh dear god... >.>; 

[Nitely]

Combat is fine. Reason I was looking forward to this game.

[vigarious]

So, would you say street fighter is made artificially difficult because the command prompts are not displayed on screen at all times? I don't find this idea very challenging... it's a matter of learning which skills are going to place you in which stance, and reacting to procs as needed.

 

Also, stop being so condescending to people, you come across as a *cricket*.

Think of it this way, if everyone is disagreeing with you; either your a genius that no one can intellectually match, or.......

[Alkorin]

Firstly, artificial difficulty is already an established term for making something difficult by increasing numbers (e.g. more boss damage) rather than increasing complexity. Secondly, I'm not sure you understand what arbitrary means. Thirdly, am I to understand that you think Assassin Stealth/Decoy stances or FM Fire/Ice stances have no meaning other than activating certain abilities? Your argument lost credibility there.

[Sinns]

I dunno, maybe you're just to hardcore to play this game. I haven't met anyone so far that didn't like the combat. I loved Aion's combat and I love this style of combat, it just takes time to get it right. But if you're not happy with the game, no harm and no foul.

 

*after reading more of your posts I've come to the conclusion you are most definitely too hard core to play this game.  /bow down before the experienced master player!

[xaqq]

you do know the reason why pvp "sucks" in this game (i guarantee you someone's going to get real butthurt i said that) is because the combat looks like it's very natural and creative but it's actually not. It's the same tab targeting/autotarget system you see in other mmorpg's, except instead of offering you real creativity with combos they force you to use the same several sets of combos in the same order over and over again. 

Some skills are locked out of your use until you use the right skills in order to use that combo, forcing you to combo the way they want you to. There is no air juggling, no fighting game SSB level of skill required. It gives you the illusion of a required level skill by heavily relying on countering, which is extremely lame since there are skills specifically made for countering instead of offering the player the choice of using positioning and skill iframes to smartly counter.

so in the end its not the pvp that sucks, it's the whole combat system that sucks. If you were to watch the combat from youtube you'd think, "hey this gameplay looks like a real hacknslash/fighting game system that requires real competitive skill with natural and creative combos". Well once you play it, you're like: "shit this *cricket*ing sucks ass".

there i said it, now i'll just hafto wait for the hate to come.

[Kaida]

I have a question for the OP. Since you are claiming that chaining skills is basically adding extra difficulty...

 

I remember having a 15+ skill dps rotation in aion at one point, with too many skills to even put on my bar on some classes (sm). Surely it would be less "arbritrarily difficult" to just give me one skill that would do all this damage.

 

Now I ask you... How boring would that be to play?

 

the CDs for all skills are shown on a CD/Buff bar, I suggest moving it to a more suitable place for you and you will never have a problem knowing she your skills are on / off cd.

 

that also being said please don't assume all gamers are like you. This is why there are so many different kinds and type of game. There were way too many skills for me to even think of keybinding in aion, my brain doesn't work that way. Keybinding in this game has been a blast and its the most fun pvp I have ever played.

 

you have come across as a crybaby who probably trashed ppl in aion pvp due to super high gear and has come to bns where gear cannot carry you and you are struggling. This is okay. Just because you are amazing in one game also doesn't mean you will be amazing in all. This game is not aion, so either enjoy it for what it is and practice to get good or play something you enjoy more. There is nothing wrong with the combat in this game, just sounds like it isn't your cup of tea and that's okay.

 

I think aion pvp is shit. If they made bns more like aion I'd be out of here in a flash. That's my opinion. Doesn't make aion a bad or "wrong" game, its just not for me and that's ok because now I have bns.

 

I apologise for inevitable typos. Phone typing is hard.

 

[QueenSheba]

OP was TL;DR. You could have just replied to one of the other dozen topics saying that "not being able to map my skills to keys I want sucks" -- which I agree. I don't really like the skill/key binding system of this game at all. There's such a tiny window to hit the skill as it changes, and by the time I move my finger to the key it's over and I can't use it.

[MintEggs]

Ok so from what I'm getting. You're saying that the combo chains are adding an unnecessary layer of difficulty because you have to think about what combos you have to do in order to get certain results right? NGL, I haven't read all the post completely. Mostly just skimmed through them. However I haven't seen anyone state that BnS was made and developed by team bloodlust in KR. It was not made by NCsoft thus how the game operates isn't up to them.  

 

BnS wasn't really meant to be full on action combat, say like tera or Dragon Nest. It leans more towards a fighting game. In that, well, you have to achieve certain combos for certain effects. Many people enjoy BnS and it's play style for exactly what you're calling 'arbitrary' Now don't get me twisted! If it's not for you and you don't like it, that's fine! However maybe finding a game that suits you better instead of suggesting one should change would be a better choice.  

[Neroht]

the only thing that its kinda true its skill windows are too short for some skills, in arena sometimes ping is a lil higher and even with decent reaction time you wont make it, all the rest its just ur opinion about the combat in this game nothing less nothing more, the artificial complexity you speak about its called depth, Aion does this by having multiple chains for one skills, prerequisites for skills aswell like kd stunned rooted etc, this game is just much faster paced than aion, the rest is pretty similar combat wise, not having a target does not even matter too much since u kinda do have a target with the kinda smart targeting system we have in b&s, anyway its your opinion your entitled to it but dont go around saying the game its broke just b/c you dont like the (3 days?) test u gave it.

[Gear]

I fail to see how the difficulty is "arbitrary" by any means.

 

Arbitrary difficulty is any of the following (For MMOs):

Pure gear/math checks (IE: Can't kill a boss because it has more HP regen (Or an enrage timer) than you put out in optimized DPS, or tank checks).

Ping difficulty (The lag is real)

Overpopulated mob spawns

Imbalanced repair costs/money gain/etc.

Anti-grouping mechanics (Forced solo instancing, bad loot mechanics, bad boss-to-player stat scaling)

 

NOT arbitrary:

Difficult skill rotations.

In-depth class and game mechanic knowledge. (Your complaint).

Pacing

AI complexity

 

If you don't enjoy a challenge, don't play the game - but don't pretend it's some failing of the combat system, which is where this game clearly shines. If you want to blame BnS for anything, blame it for the overall bland feeling outside of combat, horrible loot system, and massively imbalanced sell/buy prices at vendors during early levels. The combat system is by far better than most MMOs.