LETS TALK ARTIFICIAL/ARBITRARY DIFFICULTY.

[Tjaranis]

 

i was trying to figure out why i found the PvP combat so unenjoyable, since i am usually a huge PvP'er and loved pvp in Aion and generally in action mmo's, and the whole analyzes lead me to this:

 

 

So let us talk arbitrary difficulty. (i was told it makes more sense to use artificial difficulty, so keep that in min when you read this)

 

With difficulty, I mean difficulty of playing, the Real life skill ceiling which master players strife to reach.

Difficulty of playing is important to have in games, it is what separates the master players from the less skilled, it gives positive motivations to improve etc. all that nice stuff (we can do a discussion about why it is so positive if there is a need for it.)

 

But the way to increase difficulty is not always a positive enhancement, in my opinion.

 

So what do I mean with arbitrary difficulty.

Well I was trying to define it and what I came up with is:

“Mechanics which only effect is to make something more difficult to accomplish.”

 

When making a game or playing a game I think one of the most important factors for the enjoyment is whether or not it feels intuitive and that it feels like the controls are optimized for the effect. Meaning that you cannot come up with a solution in control or design that accomplish the same but is easier to do without removing functionality from other aspects.

 

When saying it like this it is because it is hard to explain in a general term, so instead I will come with some examples of what I mean:

 

Lets take Aion, because its another ncsoft game with focus on combat.

In aion when you look at the mechanics of using skills and applying effects, there isn’t really a faster way of doing so, if you want to apply a slow, you would use a slow skill directly with 1 push of a bottom, you can see all skills constantly and see all CD’s etc. there is really no way of optimizing this process.

Therefore it is as easy and intuitive as it can be without hurting functionality of other skills.

 

Now lets look at something like GW2, also owned by ncsoft, when applying an effect here you might need to first put down a field, then switch to another weapon, then use a skill upon that field.

This is not very intuitive and it is adding extra steps, which really isn’t needed and doesn’t add to the effective gameplay in other ways than increasing complexity and thereby difficulty of use.

This is what I call arbitrary difficulty, because its primary function is there to push up the difficulty of accomplishing whichever goal is there.

Removing the “switching weapon” functionality from the equation would simply make it easier to do, more intuitive to do and give you more information to work from (CD timers etc. would be visible for all skills then), again making it easier to do. But at the same time it wouldn’t make it harder, less intuitive or remove information from any other mechanic or gameplay aspect.

Thereby it is an arbitrary difficulty increaser. You can discuss about the field+blast effects, since it adds an extra layer but isn’t there a better way the effect of this layer could have been added which would be both more intuitive and faster/easier to accomplish? I would argue there is.

 

NOW BACK TO B&S:

It took me some time to located why I found the combat of B&S “not optimal”/”not fun in PvP”, and besides my personal preference of wanting more movability in combat which is a discussion of preferences, it comes down to the adding of arbitrary difficulty.

The constant switching of skillsets is making the use of skills less intuitive, more difficult and much slower. It also indirectly slows down the process of reaction for your brain in general since it is going from an auto responsive nature to an active nature, because it needs to keep track of “which stand am I in and which will I need for what skills”.

Having all skills available all the time (with some obviously conditioned by crits, KD, etc status effects) would only help to increase the ease of overview over skills available, the speed of use, change to auto response from active brain activity (as explained), and make it “easier in general”.

 

Now as I mentioned arbitrary difficulty is adding mechanics, which purpose is to crank up difficulty but they don’t really serve other purposes.

So the question comes to “what purpose does the stance serve which wouldn’t have been accomplished in a better manner without them?”.

Well they increase difficulty a lot, as we established.

They created precursers for which half of your base skills you can use, but this is simply increasing difficulty, not adding extra effects etc. that is important for the gameplay.

So why have the stances be pre-req for skills? Well to add difficulty and to lower “hotkey amount”.

Now hotkey amount is more than proven with aion that it is NOT an issue (75+ hotkeys and 0,1 sec GCD, so adding 4-8 extra hotkeys would be NOTHING and we would still be under the 25 hotkey amount.), so the system is basically there to add arbitrary difficulty and this is where I think my negative feeling of the combat system comes from.

 

It slows down the combat speed a lot because it has too, due to the autoresponse becoming active brain activity to keep track of this. So instead of the difficulty adding like in aion because you need to decide each move within 0,1 sec of the last, you are adding it by arbitrarily adding more “clicks” in a specific order for the primarily purpose of making it harder to do.

You could increase this even more by adding “QTE” to the skills, which is adding difficulty in the same manner, it counter intuitively increase difficulty of doing something which in reality is extremely simple and should be extremely easy.

 

This is where my feeling of the bad combat comes from and I do believe that it is where the biggest difference on other action games, or other popular fast pace combat ncsoft games and B&S.

That you usually don’t add arbitrary difficulty into fast pace combat games because it isn’t needed and it isn’t wanted when you are already working at a very high speed. Yet B&S decided that they Rather Slow down the combat speed by slowing down movement, slowing down projectiles, slowing down skills use (by setting up GCD to 0,5 sec instead of the 0,1 that aion as an example use. That is FIVE times faster skill use between each skill, that is an insane difference in rl skill ceiling need), and then add an arbitrary difficulty of having to push more bottoms and keep better track of which “mode” your character is currently in and which he needs to be in and which the enemy is in and which it can switch to with what skills…

 

It is a choice; arbitrary difficult increase or actually difficulty increase.

Personally I think it is a HUGE mistake that ncsoft have choosen to go the “arbitrary difficulty” route with this game and I hope they will rethink this for their next product.

You could easily speed up the fast pace of combat in B&S by simply removing stances/modes and let all abilities (not pre-req KD, other effects) be used from a single set of hotbars with hotkeys, which would focus more on the actual difficulty instead of the extra addition of “more clicks” to add arbitrary difficulty that truly wouldn’t be needed in a game like this.

 

This would actually fix the problem of the “slow feeling movement in combat” and the “off feel” of combat as well.

 

[Tlalte]

you just explained why people(or just myself) love this new combat feel, going away with the conventional keyboard smash and all~

why would you fix its only special feature?

[Aigels]

GW2's IP is owned by NCSoft, yet it was developed fully by ArenaNet. If you notice, there's no direct access to the game in the site, neither your account has anything to do with it. The same applies if you go to GW2 website

That said

 

git gud

Seriously, I played a criketton games, specially action, and it's all about the tools you have vs the effort you put. Play the game more than a few days, and you'll realize how it plays, your limitations, and how you work around them. I was very frustrated against sins in arena, but I was able to win a few matches the more I played and the more I practiced. They still win, but at least I'm not that scrub anymore

[Tjaranis]

10 minutes ago, Tlalte said:

you just explained why people(or just myself) love this new combat feel, going away with the conventional keyboard smash and all~

why would you fix its only special feature?

but this "new concept" isn't new, it is just GW2 in a slightly tweaked version (upgraded if you ask me, since they removed the combo field complexity which i would argue is arbitrary difficulty or very close to it as well), and it is actually not removing bottom smashing either ^^

 

i dont think it adds anything positive in its addition.

however it does slow down the pace of the combat or the feel/look of combat, since the activity of your brain and the activity of your finger movement is roughly the same (fingers might be slightly slower, but i would think the limit here is more on the brain than your finger movement speed).

 

it is simply a question of whether your brain is managing to think about the counter to the skills and combo's (aion), or thinking of 50% on the stance/modes and 50% on the counter to the skills and combo's  (B&S).

and that your keypresses in B&S will have arbitrary key spamming with only intend to change the stance (B&S) or every keypress is there to have a direct effect either to counter or to force a counter to a skill.

 

as i mentioned it is adding arbitrary difficulty, it is not changing what you actually need to do, it is simply changing the reasoning why you need to do it, and the feeling of the actual pace of the activity happening on the screen.

[Tjaranis]

21 minutes ago, Aigels said:

GW2's IP is owned by NCSoft, yet it was developed fully by ArenaNet. If you notice, there's no direct access to the game in the site, neither your account has anything to do with it. The same applies if you go to GW2 website

That said

 

git gud

Seriously, I played a criketton games, specially action, and it's all about the tools you have vs the effort you put. Play the game more than a few days, and you'll realize how it plays, your limitations, and how you work around them. I was very frustrated against sins in arena, but I was able to win a few matches the more I played and the more I practiced. They still win, but at least I'm not that scrub anymore

first of i do know how their firm buildup work -.- (the game was used as an example because of its mechanics, and it IS owned by NCSOFT, which OWNS the company which made it)

so no reason to state this, for no other reason than trying to sound smarter than others.

 

secondly reported for the bad attitude and the trolling of "git gud" BS.

if you got zero arguments and do not want to have an actual civilized discussion about the SUBJECT in question, then just go away, don't post, don't read, just go away.

you are adding nothing for anyone and your preasense is only a negative influence on the discussion -.-

 

edit: btw if you actually read my OP it states CLEARLY that difficulty in playing is a good thing, and i am not complaining about anything being too difficult or not being able to do it. I am simply stating that the way that they add arbitrary difficulty is bad in my optic and it removes the ability to add actual  difficulty by setting up the pace of the combat decisions (faster combat movement, lower GCD etc.)

[Aigels]

5 minutes ago, Tjaranis said:

first of i do know how their firm work -.-

so no reason to be a smartass, for no other reason than thinking you sound smarter.

 

secondly reported for the bad attitude and the trolling of "git gud" BS.

if you got zero arguments and do not want to have an actual civilized discussion about the SUBJECT in question, then just go away, don't post, don't read, just go away.

you are adding nothing for anyone and your preasense is only a negative influence on the discussion -.-

I added an argument, and my personal experience. It would be "artificial difficulty" if only you suffered from limitations against other players, but it isn't the case. EVEYRONE has the same limitations. And probably certain classes are more easy to win over others, but that makes them stumble against certain floor, thing that makes difficult to them to know why exactly they're failing (usually in silver/gold). That's what happens with mostly Destroyers. They have it ez in lower tiers, but they have a hard time in higher tiers

Now, if you read more than the "git gud", you could read something similar in my post, which ain't the case

In any case, the game expects you to master it over time, not in some days. So I recommend you to keep practicing

[Enamour]

7 minutes ago, Tjaranis said:

secondly reported for the bad attitude and the trolling of "git gud" BS.

LOL holy shit. 

 

8 minutes ago, Tjaranis said:

if you got zero arguments and do not want to have an actual civilized discussion about the SUBJECT in question, then just go away, don't post, don't read, just go away

Oh the irony.

 

8 minutes ago, Tjaranis said:

you are adding nothing for anyone and your preasense is only a negative influence on the discussion -.-

I smell a new meme being born.

 

I've replied to your other thread as well. If you claim you want to "discuss" something, don't try insisting that your point is correct through means (or rather lack of) "evidence". You're actually counter-arguing yourself.

[Tjaranis]

2 minutes ago, Aigels said:

I added an argument, and my personal experience. It would be "artificial difficulty" if only you suffered from limitations against other players, but it isn't the case. EVEYRONE has the same limitations. And probably certain classes are more easy to win over others, but that makes them stumble against certain floor, thing that makes difficult to them to know why exactly they're failing (usually in silver/gold). That's what happens with mostly Destroyers. They have it ez in lower tiers, but they have a hard time in higher tiers

Now, if you read more than the "git gud", you could read something similar in my post, which ain't the case

In any case, the game expects you to master it over time, not in some days. So I recommend you to keep practicing

 

First of no you didn’t stop lying you were trying to be an ass and succeeding. there was no argument related to the topic either -.-

 

Secondly as I wrote above (properly didn’t read it since it was in an edit but it also answers nicely the rest of your view):

“If you actually read my OP it states CLEARLY that difficulty in playing is a good thing, and i am not complaining about anything being too difficult or not being able to do it. I am simply stating that the way that they add arbitrary difficulty is bad in my optic and it removes the ability to add actual  difficulty by setting up the pace of the combat decisions (faster combat movement, lower GCD etc.)”

 

 

[Enamour]

2 minutes ago, Tjaranis said:

 

First of no you didn’t stop lying you were trying to be an ass and succeeding. there was no argument related to the topic either -.-

 

Secondly as I wrote above (properly didn’t read it since it was in an edit but it also answers nicely the rest of your view):

“If you actually read my OP it states CLEARLY that difficulty in playing is a good thing, and i am not complaining about anything being too difficult or not being able to do it. I am simply stating that the way that they add arbitrary difficulty is bad in my optic and it removes the ability to add actual  difficulty by setting up the pace of the combat decisions (faster combat movement, lower GCD etc.)”

 

 

And yet you claim that conditional skills slow DOWN gameplay. Your main "argument" is movement speed and the fact that gameplay is slow but gave no examples. I gave more than one example counter-arguing your theory and you've ignored them both and failed to even mention it. This is why the fact that you ask for civil discussion is irony at its finest.

[Aigels]

3 minutes ago, Tjaranis said:

 

First of no you didn’t stop lying you are trying to be an ass and succeeding -.-

Secondly as I wrote above (properly didn’t read it since it was in an edit but it also answers nicely the rest of your view):

“If you actually read my OP it states CLEARLY that difficulty in playing is a good thing, and i am not complaining about anything being too difficult or not being able to do it. I am simply stating that the way that they add arbitrary difficulty is bad in my optic and it removes the ability to add actual  difficulty by setting up the pace of the combat decisions (faster combat movement, lower GCD etc.)”

 

 

Well, you're using "arbitrary difficulty" in a way it can confuses people. It did for me, since something like "arbitrary difficulty" can be described in games like I wanna be the guy and etc

There's nothing "arbitrary" in the chosing of CDs, how skill work, or how fast or slow they work. This isn't an action game where the only variables are the FPS and the lag input of the controller/gamepad. There's these things involved here, but also how the servers map your position, the oponent's position, how your skills land in a person who is 10.000 kms away from you (I play with the penguins at my side, actually), or probably a few houses, but the information has to travel and be procesed in real time. And in top of that, there's the risk of someone who doesn't "play by the rules" (anybody who played Aion, another NC game, can confirm it... but if you want to make your own idea, imagine someone who can spam 3 times in a second a skill with 10 sec of CD). In sum, everything was crafted thinking in that

What you're thinking is Artificial Difficulty, which also doesn't have anything to do with anything you said in the beginning

[Tjaranis]

1 minute ago, Enamour said:

And yet you claim that conditional skills slow DOWN gameplay. Your main "argument" is movement speed and the fact that gameplay is slow but gave no examples. I gave more than one example counter-arguing your theory and you've ignored them both and failed to even mention it. This is why the fact that you ask for civil discussion is irony at its finest.

First of, and this is said as nicely and unprovoking as possible:

Try to relax,  aggression/frustration comes from when we simply don’t have the optimal response to whichever situation course our negative reaction. So lets both relax and try to engage in a discussion if you actual wish to do so :)

 

Now I do not understand what you mean in this “argument” of yours here?

I made an example of how a mechanic was accomplishing its purpose with the EASIEST and most INTUITIVE input from the user possible.

In this case the mechanics purpose is to put a “slow down” on an enemy, and it is done by pressing ONE bottom, with no pre-req etc. to do so. You cannot find an easier or more intuitive input method than that.

It is an example of how ALL arbitrary difficulty is removed to insure focus is on accomplishing what is wanted in the easiest and most intuitive manner for the player.

 

Whichever example you are talking about that have been the “counter argument” to this thread and theory, you have not written them here.

In this thread keep to THIS subject, and if you do have counter arguments to it please do post them, there might have been things I missed, didn’t consider or simply a new viewpoint that might add to my experience and consideration, which is how we evolve our theories and ideas :)

 

Best regards from here.

[Tjaranis]

11 minutes ago, Aigels said:

Well, you're using "arbitrary difficulty" in a way it can confuses people. It did for me, since something like "arbitrary difficulty" can be described in games like I wanna be the guy and etc

There's nothing "arbitrary" in the chosing of CDs, how skill work, or how fast or slow they work. This isn't an action game where the only variables are the FPS and the lag input of the controller/gamepad. There's these things involved here, but also how the servers map your position, the oponent's position, how your skills land in a person who is 10.000 kms away from you (I play with the penguins at my side, actually), or probably a few houses, but the information has to travel and be procesed in real time. And in top of that, there's the risk of someone who doesn't "play by the rules" (anybody who played Aion, another NC game, can confirm it... but if you want to make your own idea, imagine someone who can spam 3 times in a second a skill with 10 sec of CD). In sum, everything was crafted thinking in that

What you're thinking is Artificial Difficulty, which also doesn't have anything to do with anything you said in the beginning

I am sorry that you misunderstood my OP.

I think you are still missing or misunderstanding it, since you are talking about me saying CD’s, skills mechanics etc. is arbitrary, which I haven’t stated anywhere, neither do I think so.

The arbitrary concept I speak of specificly on B&S is the stances/modes which classes switches too to get access to 50% of their skills at a time (yes yes its not 50% exactly, calm down ;) ).

 

The switching mechanic is an arbitrary difficulty, its purpose is to make it “harder” to accomplish the task of using a skill fast.

Therefore its purpose is simply to make it harder to accomplish something, which is how I would define “arbitrary difficulty”. It doesn’t add any value to the gameplay which couldn’t be accomplished in a better manner.

 

The type of game doesn’t matter for the concept really. However some games might need arbitrary difficulty because they are so incredibly easy by nature that without this, they get too boring and you simply lose interested.

But in B&S that should really not be the case, especially when taking hints from other action mmo’s or from their own Aion which have its main difficulty added in simply the speed and amount of skills to keep track of (and every one of them have its specific own purpose, with very few if any truly overlapping and able to be removed or put together for same effect).

 

For the balance which you are back to when talking “3 times a second etc” that’s a balance issue, number game. IF it turns out that it is too fast, then set up the GCD until it is manageable for a top pro player to react.

If you mean that removing CD’s (which I never said) or lowering the CD’s (which could be needed if setting up the speed of the gameplay), then again it is a balance to hit the right difficulty wanted in the gameplay ^^

 

and yes you can call it artificial difficulty as well, and would properly be a better way to describe it in one word (however the explanation should make it clear what we are talking about).

 

[Enamour]

13 minutes ago, Tjaranis said:

 

First of, and this is said as nicely and unprovoking as possible:

Try to relax,  aggression/frustration comes from when we simply don’t have the optimal response to whichever situation course our negative reaction. So lets both relax and try to engage in a discussion if you actual wish to do so :)

 

Now I do not understand what you mean in this “argument” of yours here?

I made an example of how a mechanic was accomplishing its purpose with the EASIEST and most INTUITIVE input from the user possible.

In this case the mechanics purpose is to put a “slow down” on an enemy, and it is done by pressing ONE bottom, with no pre-req etc. to do so. You cannot find an easier or more intuitive input method than that.

It is an example of how ALL arbitrary difficulty is removed to insure focus is on accomplishing what is wanted in the easiest and most intuitive manner for the player.

 

Whichever example you are talking about that have been the “counter argument” to this thread and theory, you have not written them here.

In this thread keep to THIS subject, and if you do have counter arguments to it please do post them, there might have been things I missed, didn’t consider or simply a new viewpoint that might add to my experience and consideration, which is how we evolve our theories and ideas :)

 

Best regards from here.

I'm perfectly calm as I'm not offended easily by words. It's more-so the fact 

 

1 hour ago, Tjaranis said:

The constant switching of skillsets is making the use of skills less intuitive, more difficult and much slower. It also indirectly slows down the process of reaction for your brain in general since it is going from an auto responsive nature to an active nature, because it needs to keep track of “which stand am I in and which will I need for what skills”.

Having all skills available all the time (with some obviously conditioned by crits, KD, etc status effects) would only help to increase the ease of overview over skills available, the speed of use, change to auto response from active brain activity (as explained), and make it “easier in general”.

 

It's more about a learning curve. In Aion (or any game for that matter), it becomes less and less about processing time and more about prediction and knowing what to do easily. It sounds more like you haven't taken the time out (as a player) to learn what to do and when but compare to something that you've acquired in a few months-years already in Aion. That's apples to oranges. Also, saying "it also indirectly slows down the process of reaction for your brain in general since it is going from an auto responsive nature to an active nature" just further reinforces my point that you're still learning, therefore you're expected to be moving out of this "auto responsive nature". Learning applies to all games but it seems more like you're using yourself as a standard, in which case, would make assumptions highly inaccurate (considering you have a different "catch time" than others).

 

1 hour ago, Tjaranis said:

In aion when you look at the mechanics of using skills and applying effects, there isn’t really a faster way of doing so, if you want to apply a slow, you would use a slow skill directly with 1 push of a bottom, you can see all skills constantly and see all CD’s etc. there is really no way of optimizing this process.

Therefore it is as easy and intuitive as it can be without hurting functionality of other skills.

These mean nothing to me because Aion have chain skills that are conditional, just like Blade and Soul. 

 

1 hour ago, Tjaranis said:

They created precursers for which half of your base skills you can use, but this is simply increasing difficulty, not adding extra effects etc. that is important for the gameplay.

Increasing difficulty by conditional skills leads to a more complexing pvp environment meaning that pvp isn't as linear as other mmos. It's based more on your reaction, execution, and knowledge. Aion is more akin to "button-mashing" in which case, said complexity is diminished.

 

And this is just from browsing. This whole post makes no sense and is riddled with contradictions, assumptions and a highly biased attitude.

[GnatB]

I'm also against game difficulty due to interface/mechanics.   (Which is  what I think you're calling arbitrary difficulty), however I'm not sure it applies in this case.  

 

Less buttons = easier.  I'm sorry, Only having to worry about ~10 keys is far easier than the veritable dozens some other games require.  So, again, have to disagree.

 

Admittedly, I'm not all that familiar with the whole stance concept.  I haven't gotten terribly far into the game.  For as far as I've gotten, only my Force Master and Blade master really have what I'd call "stances".  (and at least so far, my blade masters "stance" only lasts for a short time, and only has 1 or maybe 2 skills she can use while in it, though I suspect that changes?).  My Kung Fu Master, Assassin, and Destroyer don't really have what I would call "stances" that you toggle between, at least not yet.  The Kung fu can just grapple (for a bit), The assassin (like most rogues) can stealth (for a bit), and the destroyer can grab (for a bit)  For the most part they're more like just moves in a combo chain.  Many fighting games actually have things like that.

 

The only character I have that has an absolute definite "stance" (so far) is the force master.  Entering either the ice stance or the fire stance, pretty much at will.  Each with a full and completely independent set of abilities.  And I have to admit, to me the force master seems like a fairly lame afterthought, that doesn't really work that well with the games mechanics.

 

 

Note:  The one thing I will agree with is the cooldowns.  I'd be inclined to argue that the skills should be designed such that any skill available in a subposition should always be off cooldown whenever you enter the subposition.  Whether the act of entering the subposition clears it, or the cooldown for the "enter" skill is shorter than the cooldown for the "in subposition" skill.

 

Also, skills that have a "proactive" condition requirement (such as Destroyers grab) that can be self triggered in multiple ways, should have some UI treatment that lets you know what their cooldown is.

[Enamour]

12 minutes ago, GnatB said:

Also, skills that have a "proactive" condition requirement (such as Destroyers grab) that can be self triggered in multiple ways, should have some UI treatment that lets you know what their cooldown is.

But they do show the cd. It's 18 seconds (without anything in it) and shown along side the other skills that are on cooldown.

[Tjaranis]

18 minutes ago, Enamour said:

It's more about a learning curve. In Aion (or any game for that matter), it becomes less and less about processing time and more about prediction and knowing what to do easily. It sounds more like you haven't taken the time out (as a player) to learn what to do and when but compare to something that you've acquired in a few months-years already in Aion. That's apples to oranges. Also, saying "it also indirectly slows down the process of reaction for your brain in general since it is going from an auto responsive nature to an active nature" just further reinforces my point that you're still learning, therefore you're expected to be moving out of this "auto responsive nature". Learning applies to all games but it seems more like you're using yourself as a standard, in which case, would make assumptions highly inaccurate (considering you have a different "catch time" than others).

 

And this is just from browsing. This whole post makes no sense and is riddled with contradictions, assumptions and a highly biased attitude.

While I agree mastering something is about learning it. I will argue that mastering a maxed character without prior knowledge in B&S is FAR easier than doing so in Aion. (simply because of the amount of skills and classes there are, and the speed of which you need to do it, it means it is muscle memory training which makes you a master on top of the vast knowledge needed to know the right move to everything).

 

However mastering something have little to do with whether or not the difficulty of what you master would be needed to do what you are accomplishing.

As an example, you might have a system where you got 3 individual skills, which can only be used in a chain, skill 1, skill 2, skill 3, and which only have any effect when the last skill hits. having these 3 skills on 3 different hotkeys would seem counter intuitive (since they can only be used in succession, so why not have 1 hotkey used 3 times?) and having them as 3 separate skills is also counterintuitive and add extra “work” to accomplish what is done (since what they accomplish is only done when the last skill hits, there is no reason not to make it a single skill instead of 3).

While it shouldn’t be a discussion if it is more difficult to do this combo when there is 3 skills on 3 different hotkeys, compared to 1 hotkey pressed 3 times and more difficult to press 3 times than having it be 1 skill needing 1 press. Designing the system like this is adding a lot of what I call arbitrary difficulty (or artificial difficulty if you like that wording better).

 

Now in B&S you have stances and the only purpose of stances is to add that “extra layer of complexibility” which is there to add extra difficulty.

The real question is then: does it do anything else really? Removing it would have what effects? You would simply removing an extra bottom press, and removing some of the difficulty of thinking over this extra complexity to accomplish something. However this would not affect the way you actual accomplish your goal (besides removing arbitrary difficulty).

 

Which is my focus on the whole argument, and which you seem to miss ^^

 

About the slowing down the process, that is not a really a discussion, it is a matter of FACTS, the less actual change your brain needs to take into consideration the faster its auto response can take over. If the brain knows that it doesn’t need to consider anything else than 1 door and when that one door opens, its response will be VASTLY faster than when it needs to consider 2 doors and be able to stated which door opened (was it door 1 or 2 that opened?), this is because the response to “door opened, is an auto response situation, the brain doesn’t further consider anything. While the need to acknowledge which door opened, then find the associated attributes and then express them takes FAR more activity of the brain.

Now what I mean with this is not that you think more in B&S or your brain works more, no it simply just works on different things which takes a lot more for each reaction, meaning the amount of reactions that it is able to respond too per interval is the ratio in difference smaller.

THEREBY slowing down the feel of the gameplay, because actual actions happening is slowed down to accommodate that the brain needs more time for each action due to the consideration of changing states and which attributes are considered different depending on the stated.

 

This is not always a bad thing in games, in my opinion, if there is a purpose besides stressing the brain to make it “arbitrarily harder” then I think it is a good thing. But just adding elements which sole purpose is to force the brain to consider extra stages for no other reason than making it harder for the person to react fast, then slowing down all the gameplay to accommodate for the slower reaction time, I find that very negative on the gameplay, and as a bad way to make core design.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Enamour said:

These mean nothing to me because Aion have chain skills that are conditional, just like Blade and Soul.

yes aion has chain skills, but they all have a purpose (almost all at least), you might not want the second skill effect to land, which is why it is an option to not use it. it is also made as intuitive as can be, by simply putting it on the same key as the pre-req skill, so wanting to cast both skills in a row becomes as easy and intuitive as it possibly can while STILL keeping the ability to not use the second skill (if its effect is unwanted, time isn't there to use both etc, which happens quite oftend).

 

21 minutes ago, Enamour said:

Increasing difficulty by conditional skills leads to a more com

this didn't make sense to me, either i don't understand what you mean or the argument doesn't make sense to our subject, please explain.

 

22 minutes ago, Enamour said:

plexing pvp environment meaning that pvp isn't as linear as other mmos. It's based more on your reaction, execution, and knowledge. Aion is more akin to "button-mashing" in which case, said complexity is diminished

this i already responded too, and it is not true.

what it does do is force you to stop and slow down because the brain needs more time to access each move due to the many stages that can be, which means less moves per interval. while in Aion there isn't that extra abitrary "stance/mode" stage to consider, therefore it can skip the full step and consider only the actual move/action being made and then grab what is needed to response.

 

one does not take more knowledge, better reaction time, or is harder to pull of than the other.

it is simply a matter of which way the brain use its "power".

the speed of your fingers are most likely never going to be the place which is the issue in these games, it is simply your brain taking the wrong decision out of the many it needs to make and the fingers doing what is told.

(finger speed would be a problem if your brain new the answer but your fingers where just to slow to tab the key: we actually see this a bit with the hardcoding of the backflip/dash left/dash right, skills which require a double tab of the same key to activate, so there is a delay of 1 extra keypress from when your brain goes "I GOT IT" untill your fingers have done their part. but again that is bad design not a finger speed issue ;)

)

 

my issue throughout the whole discussion is simply that they have added the stance/mode (aka weapon switching of GW2) as their way to add difficulty to the game, which i find as a very bad way of doing it, because as said it is "arbitrary/articifial difficulty" which shouldn't be there in my opinion.

[Enamour]

My point is, you say this "added complexity" is basically hard...FOR YOU. You're then trying to apply it to EVERYONE when it simply is not true. It's not a flaw with the game, it's a flaw with your catch time.

 

Also on the note of chained skills: What's different from a Destroyer's grab when he wants to either choose Z (our knockdown) to continue a kd chain or using our 4 (a knock up then press F for slam)? You're nitpicking things and avoiding the fact that the points you're claiming are different really aren't. Again, you also ignore the fact that you have what, 3 days of pvp practice (excluding if you played beta) vs what, months to years on Aion? Once you figured out what a person wants to do, regardless of the game, the combat is quite easy.

[Kutsuu]

Ranting all over the forums about how you want this game to be changed into Aion 2. First it's "we need Aion's CC and dodges" now it's "we need Aion's 8 billion hotkeys" and "stances are too hard. Aion doesn't have stances" Everyone else is wrong and you're the only one who can see it for what it is. I applaud you standing against the savage masses who can see no reason!

 

Can I ask what you're expecting to get out of this?

[Tjaranis]

10 minutes ago, Enamour said:

My point is, you say this "added complexity" is basically hard...FOR YOU. You're then trying to apply it to EVERYONE when it simply is not true. It's not a flaw with the game, it's a flaw with your catch time.

 

Also on the note of chained skills: What's different from a Destroyer's grab when he wants to either choose Z (our knockdown) to continue a kd chain or using our 4 (a knock up then press F for slam)? You're nitpicking things and avoiding the fact that the points you're claiming are different really aren't. Again, you also ignore the fact that you have what, 3 days of pvp practice (excluding if you played beta) vs what, months to years on Aion? Once you figured out what a person wants to do, regardless of the game, the combat is quite easy.

No Enamour I do not say that, I never did, you keep saying that I do and I do not get why -.-

I say it is ADDING extra difficulty, making it HARDER Then it otherwise would/should be to accomplish the task it does.

You are moving into the argument of “well you just suck that is your problem” which considered i've been top 2% (if I commit time, and when not most likely top 20%) and the VAST majority of players will suck more than me at the game, this argument is just silly and shouldn’t be used EVER when discussing mechanics.

 

Even if I was the fastest thinking person in the world and the most superman finger mover in the word, that would NOT change the problem which I am describing here.

The problem has never been that it is Too Difficult, the problem is that it is difficulty added for no other reason than wanting more difficulty added. In which case you could EASILY do so by simply speeding up combat pace, and have same result but without any of the negatives of arbitrary difficulty.

 

__________

When we are talking chain skills which have a reason for multiple chain options you need to design it in the manner which is the EASIEST and most INTUITIVE for the player to do.

In Aion they did that, chain skills with multiple chains you  can CHOOSE which skill is laying on the same key as the pre-req skill is on, and then hotkey the second chain skill to whichever key you find the easiest to use.

 

And again stop dragging in the argument of “you just ain’t good enough at the game to have an opinion”, because this is not an opinion which mastering the game will change, it is a basic concept which applies to ALL game development of ALL genres and it doesn’t matter how good you are at the game for this to apply.

[Tjaranis]

double post sry

[Tjaranis]

17 minutes ago, Enamour said:

My point is, you say this "added complexity" is basically hard...FOR YOU. You're then trying to apply it to EVERYONE when it simply is not true. It's not a flaw with the game, it's a flaw with your catch time.

 

Also on the note of chained skills: What's different from a Destroyer's grab when he wants to either choose Z (our knockdown) to continue a kd chain or using our 4 (a knock up then press F for slam)? You're nitpicking things and avoiding the fact that the points you're claiming are different really aren't. Again, you also ignore the fact that you have what, 3 days of pvp practice (excluding if you played beta) vs what, months to years on Aion? Once you figured out what a person wants to do, regardless of the game, the combat is quite easy.

 

No Enamour I do not say that, I never did, you keep saying that I do and I do not get why -.-

I say it is ADDING extra difficulty, making it HARDER Then it otherwise would/should be to accomplish the task it does.

 

You are moving into the argument of “well you just suck that is your problem” which considered I have used most of my freetime playing games since I was young, been amongst top 2% in several games, am a hardcore gamer with focus on efficiency and am an elite martial artist (making me extremely competitive), the VAST majority of players are going to suck a LOT more than I would ever do, even if I used very little time and effort on the game.

Now even if I was the fastest thinking person in the world and the most superman finger mover in the word, that would NOT change the problem which I am describing here.

The problem has never been that it is Too Difficult, the problem is that it is difficulty added for no other reason than wanting more difficulty added. In which case you could EASILY do so by simply speeding up combat pace, and have same result but without any of the negatives of arbitrary difficulty.

 

__________

When we are talking chain skills which have a reason for multiple chain options you need to design it in the manner which is the EASIEST and most INTUITIVE for the player to do.

In Aion they did that, chain skills with multiple chains you  can CHOOSE which skill is laying on the same key as the pre-req skill is on, and then hotkey the second chain skill to whichever key you find the easiest to use.

 

And again stop dragging in the argument of “you just ain’t good enough at the game to have an opinion”, because this is not an opinion which mastering the game will change, it is a basic concept which applies to ALL game development of ALL genres and it doesn’t matter how good you are at the game for this to apply.

 

[Tjaranis]

31 minutes ago, Kutsuu said:

Ranting all over the forums about how you want this game to be changed into Aion 2. First it's "we need Aion's CC and dodges" now it's "we need Aion's 8 billion hotkeys" and "stances are too hard. Aion doesn't have stances" Everyone else is wrong and you're the only one who can see it for what it is. I applaud you standing against the savage masses who can see no reason!

 

Can I ask what you're expecting to get out of this?

you clearly didnt read my post so stop talking bad about them -.-

and i never stated anything about aions dodge's, aion doesnt have a "dodge system", so again just stop talking bad.

neither have i said stances is to hard or any such nonesense -.-

 

to answer your question, oppose to some people, i actually believe that the devs like getting feedback on good/bad area's of the game, so that they can improve their concept, if not to improve the current game then to make it better with the next one.

why do you think our movement system out of combat (gliding etc) is so good in B&S? that's right because they had a TON of feedback from AION!, mostly telling them what NOT to do again, which have resulted in a really damn awesome system in B&S.

[Enamour]

Now you're just reading too much into it. I'm saying just because it's an issue to you, does not mean it's an issue for others. Get that straight first.

 

Second, who are you to force "facts" on people? On top of that, you've derived these "facts" from a misconception. There's literally nothing that's harder in difficulty in terms of "Stances". 

 

I do not care about your past experiences in RL. That has nothing to do with this. YOu're trying to say that stances make things too difficult without the slightest idea of what "subjective" means. You're just going in circles about a mechanic that has a minimum amount of issues with it and complaining for no reason. 

 

Finally, maybe this will make it simple for you:

 

Stances = Conditional skills (excluding cc for right now)

Chain skills = Conditional skills.

 

You literally choose what you want to use in both games. What's the issue? If you're complaining about format, simply state that "I believe that the format is bad" instead of going through this lengthy goose-chase of comparisons and "reasons".

[TempSol]

to add to other peoples comment you making it sound like because this "newer" games were using system that your more familiar with or were more recent to become familar with you creates a hindering experience for you. BnS may be published by NCsoft buts it coders/developers/studios are entirely different people and tbh Blade and soul was developed back in like 2007 in a korean studio before they had any idea of some of the newer stuff you talking about. Everyone has uses these things in fighting games and mmos for a long time and BnS system doesn't deviate far from it other than just how many keys you get and how you can track the keys visual.  I'll go with Enamour and some of the others you are choosing to spit words out of your  mouth to fit your needs and to sound smart for how this game doesn't adjust to your needs. It's fine and very robust system that has been and still being polished for all classes and continuing enjoyable. If you going to enter the conversation don't pick such junevile points of how it doesn't make sense. Find where the disconnects are in the core mechanics and how they don't translate to you and than we  can talk but for me I know it's a challenge especially on a new fighter class this time around instead of a summoner but I don't have any aversion to any combat scenarios, it's a challenge and one that can always be surmounted, 

[Tjaranis]

39 minutes ago, Enamour said:

Now you're just reading too much into it. I'm saying just because it's an issue to you, does not mean it's an issue for others. Get that straight first.

 

Second, who are you to force "facts" on people? On top of that, you've derived these "facts" from a misconception. There's literally nothing that's harder in difficulty in terms of "Stances". 

 

I do not care about your past experiences in RL. That has nothing to do with this. YOu're trying to say that stances make things too difficult without the slightest idea of what "subjective" means. You're just going in circles about a mechanic that has a minimum amount of issues with it and complaining for no reason. 

 

Finally, maybe this will make it simple for you:

 

Stances = Conditional skills (excluding cc for right now)

Chain skills = Conditional skills.

 

You literally choose what you want to use in both games. What's the issue? If you're complaining about format, simply state that "I believe that the format is bad" instead of going through this lengthy goose-chase of comparisons and "reasons".

Whether or not you OR I think it is a personal issue to us, really does not matter at all in this  conversation.

This is a conversation on the concepts of the mechanics that add difficulty in a specific way.

 

If your answer is simply “I don’t think it is a problem for me” then fine, but that is not what this thread is about, so don’t post here at all then.

If your answer is “I do not agree with your assessment because these arguments would indicated that this kind of difficulty adding is either needed because of X, or removing them would have Huge issues that couldn’t be fixed because of Y, BUT fixing them it from the core game would have been better due to z or worse due to a”, then your answer is completely correct for this conversation and I would love to hear it.

 

___________________

The facts about the brain, is simple knowledge of how your brain works, you can look it up if you want.

 

the FACT that difficulty is added by adding an extra layer of complexity (in this case stances) is again a pretty obvious one, but I am sure if you search for it you can find some research testing multitasking when adding complexity levels etc. something in that area (but seriously it wouldn’t be needed to understand that having to do A,B and Z is harder than having to do only A).

 

----------------

Again NO NO NO I am NOT saying it makes it TOO difficult, where the hell are you getting this? Are you even reading what I am saying? Just tell me WERE is this bs coming from?!

 

----------

Yes I am going in circle’s because you clearly do not understand it when explained once, so I am trying in many different ways to get it through your head or give you enough understanding of it to come up with some arguments for why you do not believe it is so.

 

_________

 

you do not see the difference on stances and chains?

Ok let me try to explain it to you then. Chain skills are pre-cursers for effects that would otherwise break balance if there wasn’t a pre-curser for them, in the same manner they NEED to be chains because the second effect of the skills is not always wanted and can be used for multiple purposes depending on when you choose to use it.

 

Stances are pre-cursers to ALL skills, they are there to add extra complexity, they are not there for balance, they are not there because you might not want to use the next skill but the stance in itself is what you are looking for (aka to add an effect, like GW2 attunement switching as an example).

Their purpose is simply to add extra complexity for the sake of making it “harder” to do something.

 

There is a WORLD of difference.

Chain skills are made as chain to ADD! Extra options and extra stuff a player can do, to make it faster to do so and more intuitive and efficient to do so.

Stances are added to subtract options from players, to remove extra stuff, and to slowdown the pace while making it less intuitive and efficient in its use.

 

They are more opposite than equals in their design and reasoning.

__________________

I am STILL waiting for you to actually come with some arguments about the actual subject. WHY do you think that stances isn’t adding arbitrary/artificial difficulty, WHY do you think they are needed and what do you see it really adding to the mechanics that wouldn’t have been done better in another way, and ofcouse WHAT issues do you see that can’t be fixed by removing the stances mechanics and allowing all skills to be used without the stance pre-req?