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Alien52

Suggestion: Spawn killing

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Alien52   

It's possible for spawn killing because of loading. The character can be loaded into the server before the client computer finish the loading screen. When this happen in open world pvp, they are available to be attacked. The loading player can attack but they would have to blindly spam an attack and hope it hits. There should be a better solution to allow a fair method of loading. Possible solution being unable attacked or to attack in x amount of seconds during the resurrection load in process.

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Shoshin   

They already have a very clear solution to this, it's the button 3. When you die in the game, you can choose to respawn naked without an outfit on. If you have problems with loading too slow and get killed because of it, then just don't put the PvP Dobok on until after you've loaded in. If you end up dying due to loading, then push 3 and resurrect at nearest point without a dobok on and then equip your dobok and go get revenge. Simple.

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Shoshin   

They already have a very clear solution to this, it's the button 3. When you die in the game, you can choose to respawn naked without an outfit on. If you have problems with loading too slow and get killed because of it, then just don't put the PvP Dobok on until after you've loaded in. If you end up dying due to loading, then push 3 and resurrect at nearest point without a dobok on and then equip your dobok and go get revenge. Simple.

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Alien52   

That's not a solution that's call surrendering. Also it's a problem, the problem is not it is loading too slow. Matter of fact what I state says that the loading is fast enough. Just the loading screen is the cause of the problem. The loading screen takes longer than the loading itself. Since the character is loaded in before the loading screen is finish switching. I don't think it's consider simple when you have to take three step to complete when the original method was only a single step. The only problem with using a single step is a loading problem. I don't see how fixing something that shouldn't have cause a problem to begin with to be non-applicable solution. Whenever I create a script for something, I don't make a menu or script to complicate a option that should of been simple to the user. I make the option work like I intended. In this case they coded an option to spawn in with pvp availability. Instead taking an addition optional step I expect them to work on the code to make that option work in the first place. It could be use as a strategy to regroup if this was a guild war but it's not. I haven't experience the pvpve raid yet that I've heard about but if that option is available in there than it will be a problem in the future where they give the ability to spawn kill during a split loading process.

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Shirou   

Would you please stop with this? And please, don't bring any argues for this, is just certainly your only fault for wearing the dobok, and I do believe the 3 button is a solution.

Open world pvp? Factions , starting with desert, I'm sure they got guards to instakill people, so I fail to see the problem. Random pvp? You're on your own; you decide to load with your pvp outfit on? Suffer the consequences. You're an enemy to others, I don't think real life would just wait you "to load out from your loading screen".

So please..

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Teisho   

This is not a bug or a known issue... Please don't make threads like this in this section.

 

People have already gone over what your alternatives are.

 

If you're going to make a suggestion (which I think is a terrible one, by the way) I think you should leave it in general discussion instead of bumping down actual bugs/errors with the game.

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Alien52   

Ok, I would go look for a moderator to close this topic down to further post in general section.

To be fair, general discussion is general discussion not suggestion. Someone undervalue my thought, I defend it, simple.

 

I do not accept those alternatives because I do find it to be an issue if there is a split between server and client loading time. I'm not defending on who's fault it is that is in pvp dobok nor am I being a sour puss over it. I simply see a problem that I don't think should exist. I see it as a problem because that option exist but yet I do not see it work correctly. Either remove the option from pvp to spawn in a dobok and leave only surrender option (spawn without dobok) or make it work properly. I also see it as an issue because it means there is pretty noticeable difference between client and server time, and considering it to be pretty dependent on it that difference is pretty big issue if during that difference can be close to an instant kill.

 

Lastly to highlight my key point of what I'm am trying to say is the #1 issue is that there is a big enough difference between the server loading & client loading that it can lead to a instant kill. Which is what I'm really concern about because it's not an issue of personal hardware or isp bandwidth but an issue with the games server loading the character data out fast enough to be nearly killed before the client, by client I mean the software, is out of the loading screen. In short, you are loaded In as a targetable character before the client is actually finish with its loading screen. either pvp or pve it means there is big enough difference between data flow to the server, where server is much faster, and the client is still loading to make a big difference then that is a problem.

Edited by Alien52

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GnatB   

I don't think real life would just wait you "to load out from your loading screen".

So please..

 

I don't know about you, but I don't have any loading screens in real life.

 

That said, of course the server has a way faster load time than the client.  The server probably doesn't even *have* a load time for respawn.  There's nothing to load.  It just reinits values to default which likely takes 0.0000001 seconds.

 

Whereas the client has to load textures, models, etc.  (Note:  Theoretically if you're spawning in exactly the same place you died it may not *need* to load textures/models/etc.  But it probably does anyways just 'cause)

Additionally, why waste bandwidth with an extra "I'm done loading" message from the client to the server?  The server will know that you're done loading when you move, so that's out... which gives the loading person something of an advantage.  They can sit there, lurking and looking like a hostile target, watching the fight, and are completely immune until they decide to take the first strike.

 

Yeah, no.  I'm tempted to say they should just remove the option to spawn with it on, but I could see that being useful in large scale GvG encounters where you are less likely to be immediately ganked and don't want to waste the time.

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I don't really see what the issue is pressing "3" and be naked. When your screen is loaded all you need to do is equip your Faction outfit, which is instant. 

It only takes 5 seconds to take it off.

 

And, I completely see why you think pressing "3" is paramount to "Surrendering". Its using your brains instead when someone is camping your resurrection point.

Press "3" once, and kill that person after your actually loaded, and also teabag him afterwards for amusing reactions and self glory.

Edited by Shirolicious

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They can sit there, lurking and looking like a hostile target, watching the fight, and are completely immune until they decide to take the first strike.

 

Your logic is flawed. You can do that anyway.

How-to:

1) Die

2) Press 3

3) Re-equip costume at the right time

4) ???

5) Bad logic

 

 

The problem is that it's no fun when you load in immediately dead because you got dropped while loading. Getting stunlocked is one thing, you obviously screwed up enough to get caught that badly. Getting zerged is another thing, you probably should've seen it coming and ran. Getting dropped while you're loading is completely different since you don't even have the chance to defend yourself.

There are a lot of other games that already have immunity while loading. Somehow, I don't think other people are going on their forums and telling them to take it away because "They should've flagged off before ressing". It's just a matter of fair play. Spawncamping isn't fun for anyone but the griefers and, honestly, they're having enough fun ganking outside of Jadestone anyway.

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Shirou   

I don't know about you, but I don't have any loading screens in real life.

Count the sleep time, all of sudden, someone wants to kill you, you're sleeping, you're about to wake up, but you die, only that you won't "respawn" next time.

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Dolan   

The argument about spawn killing would make sense if there was no option to respawn without wearing your PvP costume. But since such an option exists, simply use it if you don't like being spawn-killed.

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GnatB   

Your logic is flawed. You can do that anyway.

How-to:

1) Die

2) Press 3

3) Re-equip costume at the right time

4) ???

5) Bad logic

 

 

The problem is that it's no fun when you load in immediately dead because you got dropped while loading. Getting stunlocked is one thing, you obviously screwed up enough to get caught that badly. Getting zerged is another thing, you probably should've seen it coming and ran. Getting dropped while you're loading is completely different since you don't even have the chance to defend yourself.

There are a lot of other games that already have immunity while loading. Somehow, I don't think other people are going on their forums and telling them to take it away because "They should've flagged off before ressing". It's just a matter of fair play. Spawncamping isn't fun for anyone but the griefers and, honestly, they're having enough fun ganking outside of Jadestone anyway.

 

AFAIK you don't actually look like a hostile player if you press 3 to respawn.  You look like an undressed player.  So people probably aren't going to be wasting attacks on you.

 

(That said, I do find it fairly peculiar that there isn't some delay between when you start changing into a PvP outfit and when you can attack.  Or is there some sort of "changing outfit" animation you have to finish before you can attack?  I have to admit, I've never really tested it.  The delay changing out (I assume you can't change at all if you're actually in combat?) seems far less useful to avoid exploits than a delay changing in.)

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Zero   

The very fact they had to implement the so called "option 3" indicates there IS an issue with default respawn option. The "option 3" people outlined is probably just a temporary workaround.

Also, I don't see why people taking offensive tone towards this bug report.

 

The fact is: Optional or not, you standing like a goof (pvp or pve) before you actually load into the game is not a smart way to handle spawns / loadings in online games. Consider the same respawn in a hostile pve environment. Monster don't consider your pvp status, they just attack. If you're loading during that time... RIP

 

On the other hand, let's just look at default pvp respawning option as a feature and ignore the alternatives and pve.

 

 

 

What do you call something enables pvp kills and has nothing to do with your or your opponent's ability to play the game? How about if that something is consistent and reproducible?

I mean bugs are behaviors that devs did not expect and did not intent to be used. I wonder if devs intended players get killed while loading.... Anyways, I can't give this "something" a name yet, because I don't know how they intended it to be.

I DO know it's reproducible AND it's gives "free" kills if used.... so it's exploitable...

 

So I have an exploitable "something".

 

Now REALLY REALLY think before answering. Is a respawn option that gets you killed while loading normal or not? I'm not talking about alternative option "3" I'm talking about default respawn in pvp. If you use that option and someone notices you're using it you can potentially stay dead forever. Would you call it a well designed or a buggy feature?

 

Now if you think developer intended for people with slower PCs to die when using this option and you think it's a well designed feature then based on your opinion this feature is fine , because an "Exploitable well designed feature" is still within developer's intended margin of use.

 

Things turn differently If you thought it's a buggy feature, though, because using an "Exploitable buggy feature" is the same as exploiting bugs, which is a bannable offense according to ToA.

 

Last I checked it is bad design to leave features that are a direct cause of bannable offenses in games.

 

Forget about the damn alternatives, this bug report is clearly about default option and not the alternatives. In my opinion default respawn option is ill designed and needs improvement.

 

 

Solution:

Most common solution I see in online games is respawn happening after client loads followed by like 1-3 seconds of invulerability (which is canceled by attacks or movement OR skills being disabled for that period).

It's not too complex so I think it's a viable solution.

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Alien52   

The very fact they had to implement the so called "option 3" indicates there IS an issue with default respawn option. The "option 3" people outlined is probably just a temporary workaround.

Also, I don't see why people taking offensive tone towards this bug report.

 

The fact is: Optional or not, you standing like a goof (pvp or pve) before you actually load into the game is not a smart way to handle spawns / loadings in online games. Consider the same respawn in a hostile pve environment. Monster don't consider your pvp status, they just attack. If you're loading during that time... RIP

 

On the other hand, let's just look at default pvp respawning option as a feature and ignore the alternatives and pve.

 

 

 

What do you call something enables pvp kills and has nothing to do with your or your opponent's ability to play the game? How about if that something is consistent and reproducible?

I mean bugs are behaviors that devs did not expect and did not intent to be used. I wonder if devs intended players get killed while loading.... Anyways, I can't give this "something" a name yet, because I don't know how they intended it to be.

I DO know it's reproducible AND it's gives "free" kills if used.... so it's exploitable...

 

So I have an exploitable "something".

 

Now REALLY REALLY think before answering. Is a respawn option that gets you killed while loading normal or not? I'm not talking about alternative option "3" I'm talking about default respawn in pvp. If you use that option and someone notices you're using it you can potentially stay dead forever. Would you call it a well designed or a buggy feature?

 

Now if you think developer intended for people with slower PCs to die when using this option and you think it's a well designed feature then based on your opinion this feature is fine , because an "Exploitable well designed feature" is still within developer's intended margin of use.

 

Things turn differently If you thought it's a buggy feature, though, because using an "Exploitable buggy feature" is the same as exploiting bugs, which is a bannable offense according to ToA.

 

Last I checked it is bad design to leave features that are a direct cause of bannable offenses in games.

 

Forget about the damn alternatives, this bug report is clearly about default option and not the alternatives. In my opinion default respawn option is ill designed and needs improvement.

 

 

Solution:

Most common solution I see in online games is respawn happening after client loads followed by like 1-3 seconds of invulerability (which is canceled by attacks or movement OR skills being disabled for that period).

It's not too complex so I think it's a viable solution.

 

I think a lot of people that is taking this as a offensive tone because I think they put in some odd personal feeling to it. Instead of treating this as an issue alone. Also I think most don't see this as an issue because it's what everyone do, press 3 and re-equip. To be fair everyone who keeps calling option 3, there is a actual name for the button. It's call surrender. It have a white flag as its icon when you highlight the button the names pop-up and says surrender. I think people is also taking on a misconception of me putting in personal feeling about this issue because of my word chose, to call the button's proper name.

 

I think the Dev logic for the buttons were intended much differently than what we're thinking. The designs were, Option 1, to revive before we are deemed completely dead so we can come back on spot. Option 2, to call for help so a team mate can come to the rescue. Option 3, to quit pvp and return to a pve state. Option 3, to simply respawn back when we're are completely dead or to ignore option 1.

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