Mage

Blade and Soul is being censored despite them previously saying otherwise.

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Lurkios   

I see why they changed it, and approve of their reasons.  They could have perhaps have handled the storytelling a little more skillfully, but the reasons why they changed it seem obvious to me.  What disturbs me is the violent reactions of those who are literally foaming at the mouth over this relatively minor change, and their vicious denigration of anyone who disagrees with them.  It's like gamergate is getting replayed here on the BnS forums. They should really just shut this puppy down.

 

I'd like to point out that the vast majority of emotional responses, base insults... the "violent reactions", you mention seen thus far have not come from the "anti-censorship" side of the argument.

Edited by Lurkios

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Rahaya   

The moral outrage is because unlike the murder of PTSD sufferers there are real women raped and otherwise assaulted every day. Victims of sexual violence are made uncomfortable by depictions of sexual violence in entertainment. Now I'm not saying this is sexual VIOLENCE, but it's within the realm of it. It's using the violation of a woman's right to consent and privacy and making a joke of it. Yes, Aion had a similar quest, but the tone of it was vastly different than this one: In aion the young man who asked the PC to steal the nymph's clothes was hopelessly in love with the nymph in a romantic way,not in a lustful, lecherous, viewing women as an object, creepy and gross sort of way,. 

 

Honestly, the complaining from (what appears to be) males about this quest dialogue being changed (and their inability to comprehend why it was changed) makes me tremendously uncomfortable, even more uncomfortable than the original quest dialogue does. Really boys, it's disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself. 

Don't even.

 

The stigmatization, mistreatment and at times outright murder of mentally disturbed or challenged individuals has gone on for centuries. There is still a problem with people getting the help they need, including veterans with PTSD today. The attitude of 'nothing can/should be done, just get them out of the way' is as much a problem as sexism. Right here, you would rather shove it aside because it isn't your pet issue. Which is my point.

 

You are drawing a 1:1 relationship where none exist. When was the last time a woman was magically compelled to marry the person that stole her clothes? Does it need to be murder of PTSD sufferers for the content to be questionable?

 

No in both cases.

 

And someone doesn't recall Aion that well. This is the dialog for the male NPC in question when you come to him with the gown: 

"Soon the gown, and her heart, will be mine. Oh, it's you! How long have you been here? Ah, it doesn't matter.... Have you brought me the gown? Is that what you're carrying? Please give it to me!"  

 

Yes, that doesn't sound creepy at all, I'm sure. 

 

And people, do stop assuming what gender posters are. The saying about what assume does applies here.Not everyone that disagrees is a male with questionable characteristics, nor is everyone agreeing female. Stop with the ad hominems already.

Edited by Rahaya

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Just, when we had talked about *cricket* ?

 

People, this guy just has to marry and impregnate (can be consensual) this (lycandi) woman, there's no *cricket* stories here.

 

Really, that's just an attempt to please a bunch of butthurts, nothing else.

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Pim   

You missed the point.

People who are killed cannot complain about depictions of killing because they are dead.

 

 You missed the point of the bereaved..there lost a person who there love.....

 

funny to read how pepole try to say murder a pepole is not bad because they are now dead ? ...that i call a psyshosis.

Edited by Pim

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Because the life keeps flowing no matter what.

 

I'll use this quote to say this: The censoring of this quest and your outcry of this change, is not going to cause them to change it back. Whats done is done. Because the life keeps flowing, no matter what.

 

Now, before I call it a night, I want to apologise to the modderators for a post I made where I let my frustration get to me. I edited the acronym i used. I will try to be calm next time.

Edited by Norah Arendt

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Waugriff   

Social anxiety is normal. A complete lack of social anxiety and empathy is a strong symptom of psychopathy.

Needless to say, a significant chunk of the player base does not consist of psychopaths. So yeah, I'm going to speak for them.

If you are going to completely ignore the feelings of others because you don't share them, you need to grow up.

And get some freakin' empathy. (Who am I kidding though - I know exactly the kind of people I'm talking to.)

 

Yeah, done here. Not interested in trying to speak to people with this kind of psychosis.

I'm not going to feel empathy for you because your were triggered by a video game. Again, grow up. 

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Don't even.

 

The stigmatization, mistreatment and at times outright murder of mentally disturbed or challenged individuals has gone on for centuries. There is still a problem with people getting the help they need, including veterans with PTSD. The attitude of 'nothing can/should be done, just get them out of the way' is as much a problem as sexism. Right here, you would rather shove it aside because it isn't your pet issue. Which is my point.

 

You are drawing a 1:1 relationship where none exist. When was the last time a woman was magically compelled to marry the person that stole her clothes? Does it need to be murder of PTSD sufferers for the content to be questionable?

 

No in both cases.

 

And someone doesn't recall Aion that well. This is the dialog for the male NPC in question when you come to him with the gown: 

"Soon the gown, and her heart, will be mine. Oh, it's you! How long have you been here? Ah, it doesn't matter.... Have you brought me the gown? Is that what you're carrying? Please give it to me!"  

 

Yes, that doesn't sound creepy at all, I'm sure.

 

Excuse me? You were the one trying to draw a false 1:1 when you compared the Steal clothes quest to a "Kill this other NPC" quest. I was pointing out specifically one reason your logic was flawed. You're erecting a strawman and avoiding the actual discussion. 

 

"The gown and her heart" -- not "the gown and my erect manhood" -- do you really not see the difference between the two? Do you really need it explained to you that one is lewd and offensive?

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Pim   

As long they dont censor outfit, i am fine with it :D

 

 

But that would come next when there here start calling being steal women clothes in a quest is like a *cricket* in real world ...... that what some not get ......

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Lurkios   

Honestly, the complaining from (what appears to be) males about this quest dialogue being changed (and their inability to comprehend why it was changed) makes me tremendously uncomfortable, even more uncomfortable than the original quest dialogue does. Really boys, it's disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself. 

 

If you'd like to discuss things that make others uncomfortable, should we start with your interest in a game where the objective is generally cold blooded murder, knowing that you correlate the games actions to real world events?

 

As has been stated many, many times throughout this conversation - this is a game. Please do keep that in mind. There is no threat to you here on these forums just as the uncensored text of the quest resulted in neither physical nor emotional trauma to any person. Blade & Soul is fun because it's a game. I don't want to murder people in real life. I don't want to be chased by giant scorpions in real life... I definitely do want to fly around on awesome dragon breath wind currents in real life but thus far that's been out of reach.

 

Lets not pretend this is real. No one wants this to be real.

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Just, when we had talked about *cricket* ?

 

People, this guy just has to marry and impregnate (can be consensual) this (lycandi) woman, there's no *cricket* stories here.

 

Really, that's just an attempt to please a bunch of butthurts, nothing else.

Sex in a forced marriage is technically r@pe (man, this filter is annoying) if the woman did not consent to the marriage in any way.

Consent only works when both parties are fully informed and fully capable of making that decision without outside influences (i.e. alcohol or forcible social contracts like forced marriage or slavery (note: some would argue that both of these are one in the same)).

A difficult concept to grasp, I'm sure.

 

You missed the point of the bereaved..there lost a person who there love.....

 

funny to read how pepole try to say murder a pepole is not bad because they are now dead ? ...that i call a psyshosis.

FYI it's usually the people who engage in the killing who suffer PTSD. The widowed and the orphaned go through the normal stages of grief, not PTSD (unless they were present during their loved one's death and it was a violent or sudden death).

Most folks who have that specific flavor of PTSD do not suffer flashbacks from playing violent video games. Counter-intuitive, perhaps, but this is why we can get away with having so many shooters on the market, while sexual assault simulators are extremely rare and niche games usually coming out of Japan. There is also the point that anyone who does have serious issues with virtual killing can usually choose to avoid it. A sudden side quest where sexual assault is present in a game where there wasn't any before and no warning it was coming is a different matter entirely.

 

 

I'm not going to feel empathy for you because your were triggered by a video game. Again, grow up.

Toxic masculinity in action, folks!

Can't show any concern for another's well-being. That would be emasculating. Gotta toughen up and take it on the chin!

Listen, I'll be here for you if you need someone to listen to your problems. I know everyone needs to let out airs every once in awhile. That includes even the manliest of men. Anger is not the only emotion you're allowed to feel, you know?

Edited by Zyrusticae

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Call me psychopath if you want, Zy, I won't care. Fortuna is a *cricket*, it's up to the Virtu to bend her over.

 

Still, I'll never understand why sexual references will always take harder than violence. That's just hypocrisy.

 

Censorship isn't a solution, just grow up don't try to make this world like a 1984 one.

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Rahaya   

Excuse me? You were the one trying to draw a false 1:1 when you compared the Steal clothes quest to a "Kill this other NPC" quest. I was pointing out specifically one reason your logic was flawed. You're erecting a strawman and avoiding the actual discussion. 

 

"The gown and her heart" -- not "the gown and my erect manhood" -- do you really not see the difference between the two? Do you really need it explained to you that one is lewd and offensive?

I am beginning to think you have an issue with reading comprehension. I said it was surprising that this is what people are offended by and not the murder of PTSD sufferers. Then you tried to say the latter was okay because 'no one' was killing PTSD people in the real world. To which I say to you, no one is stealing women's clothes to force her to marry them. 

 

That's the 1:1. 

 

You have pointed out nothing but a lack of understanding context, or perhaps not knowing what it was you were replying to.

 

The NPC spotted her naked bathing and fell into lust at first sight. Does not know her name, beliefs, family friends, if she likes dogs or cats but it's okay to force her to marry him regardless. Those two sentence fit both quests. I fail to see the difference.

 

Except one was okay and has been okay for years, and this one isn't.

 

This is an American thing I'm assuming. The localization in general is painfully American that just about any European can spot, I shouldn't be surprised that other 'issues' (if one chooses to make it one) go by unnoticed, the stereotyping of Asians is aokay, but god forbid this sidequest.

 

I'm done.

Edited by Rahaya

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If you'd like to discuss things that make others uncomfortable, should we start with your interest in a game where the objective is generally cold blooded murder, knowing that you correlate the games actions to real world events?

 

As has been stated many, many times throughout this conversation - this is a game. Please do keep that in mind. There is no threat to you here on these forums just as the uncensored text of the quest resulted in neither physical nor emotional trauma to any person. Blade & Soul is fun because it's a game. I don't want to murder people in real life. I don't want to be chased by giant scorpions in real life... I definitely do want to fly around on awesome dragon breath wind currents in real life but thus far that's been out of reach.

 

Lets not pretend this is real. No one wants this to be real.

 

I agree with that completely but just because it is a game doesn't mean things in the game are incapable of "hitting too close to home" so to speak, or that just because it is make-believe gives it a green light to be completely tasteless and offensive. The fashion in this game is more than enough sexualization of women to last us all our game lifetimes. We don't need more of it in our quests, and we don't need it played up for laughs.

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Pim   

 

FYI it's usually the people who engage in the killing who suffer PTSD. The widowed and the orphaned go through the normal stages of grief, not PTSD (unless they were present during their loved one's death and it was a violent or sudden death).

Most folks who have that specific flavor of PTSD do not suffer flashbacks from playing violent video games. Counter-intuitive, perhaps, but this is why we can get away with having so many shooters on the market, while sexual assault simulators are extremely rare and niche games usually coming out of Japan. There is also the point that anyone who does have serious issues with virtual killing can usually choose to avoid it. A sudden side quest where sexual assault is present in a game where there wasn't any before and no warning it was coming is a different matter entirely.

 

 

 

 

Sorry but that is bullshit ... Game is Game Fantasy is Fantasy and Real World is Real World and when you have a problem to see no  diffrents between Fantasy and Real World than you have a big problem......

 

So than maybe stop all shooter games or ? or best all kinds of Fantasy stuff ....

Edited by Pim

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I am beginning to think you have an issue with reading comprehension. I said it was surprising that this is what people are offended by and not the murder of PTSD sufferers. Then you tried to say the latter was okay because 'no one' was killing PTSD people in the real world. To which I say to you, no one is stealing women's clothes to force her to marry them. 

 

That's the 1:1. 

 

You have pointed out nothing but a lack of understanding context, or perhaps not knowing what it was you were replying to.

 

The NPC spotted her naked bathing and fell into lust at first sight. Does not know her name, beliefs, family friends, if she likes dogs or cats but it's okay to force her to marry him regardless. Those two sentence fit both quests. I fail to see the difference.

 

Except one was okay and has been okay for years, and this one isn't.

 

This is an American thing I'm assuming. The localization in general is painfully American that just about any European can spot, I shouldn't be surprised that other 'issues' (if one chooses to make it one) go by unnoticed, the stereotyping of Asians is aokay, but god forbid this sidequest.

 

I'm done.

 

Mk let me ask you then: What was your point, originally? "People should not be offended by A (the edited quest) if they are not also offended by B (this other quest)." It also seemed as if you were saying that B was worse than A and should generate more outrage. That's how I read it, and my responses have been in line with that understanding. If I misunderstood then I apologize. 

Re: asian stereotyping: a lot of people are playing this game because they have an asian kawaii culture fetish. I'm not one of them, and personally I'd like to see more westernization of things, but I know it's unlikely to happen. 

Edited by QueenSheba

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Jem   

Holy shit guys. I thought this kind of topic will stay on dojo. Guess it moved here, too.

 

Y'all need jesus.

Either that or wait until someone, that one person, will have mods for you to fan translate the game how it truly was supposed to be. Then everyone can be happy. ...Maybe.

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Killian   

When did tumblr come to my favorite game... :( When will I be free of it, shit spreads like a cancer. When will it end god? WHEN?

NPv9X6U.jpg

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Ikasu   

I feel like this topic is getting way too serious.  :wacko:

 

I know someone Korean who gets told by Korean adults that she needs to lose weight. It's not to be taken offensively, and is relatively "acceptable" when told by elders at least; they're expressing concern for her health, although her weight is nowhere near life threatening at all. But if some random old lady scanning someone's groceries said that to her customer in the West? People would flip. Point is, KR finds different things acceptable compared to NA. And vice versa.

 
If someone or something from one country is moving to another, I think it's appropriate that they or it should try and adapt the cultures of the place they moved to.
This is a Korean game moving to the West. Of course it should keep things original to keep it... well, Korean, but if a problem with something arises they or the moderators of it should be able to accept that it's causing a problem and do something about it.
Edited by Ikasu

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I feel like this topic is getting way too serious.  :wacko:

 

I know someone Korean who gets told by Korean adults that she needs to lose weight. It's not to be taken offensively, and are relatively "acceptable" when told by elders at least; they're expressing concern for her health, although her weight is nowhere near life threatening at all. But if some random old lady scanning someone's groceries said that to her customer in the West? People would flip. Point is, KR finds different things acceptable compared to NA. And vice versa.

 
If someone or something from one country is moving to another, I think it's appropriate that they or it should try and adapt the cultures of the place they moved to.
This is a Korean game moving to the West. Of course it should keep things original to keep it... well, Korean, but if a problem with something arises they or the moderators of it should be able to accept that it's causing a problem and do something about it.

 

 

Great post. You're so much easier to read when you're concise like this. 

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Midoriko   

No, I am not talking about the outfits. I am talking about a specific side quest. Yes, I do read them. The side quest in question will be marked as a spoiler and will be a quote from another thread.

 

 
 

 

Even if you agree with what was done (I don't. I REALLY REALLY don't) It is still censorship. But NCSOFT claimed there would be no censorship. Now, they might try to backpedal and say they were only referring to the clothes. However, I'll post three sites that claim that NCSOFT said there won't be any censorship or the game will be completely uncensored. 

 

http://nichegamer.com/2015/05/rejoice-no-censorship-or-fatigue-system-for-the-western-version-of-blade-soul/

http://www.dualshockers.com/2015/05/21/blade-game-wont-be-pay-to-win/

http://www.siliconera.com/2015/05/22/western-version-of-blade-soul-will-be-free-to-play-uncensored-and-will-have-no-fatigue-system/

 

Not only is this censorship, but they are hiding away cultural aspects of the eastern areas. They are insulting the players, the creator of the quest, and ultimately changing and removing the culture, history, and folk lore of the eastern part of our would. The fact that this game has an Asian theme is, at least for me, a major selling point. Most MMOs take place in the same old boring High European Fantasy setting. We finally get a fantasy Asian setting, only for NCSOFT to take aspects of it away for a minority of players. I mean lets face it. The ones who will keep playing this game far after launch are the ones who love this type of setting. They don't want the world of Blade & Soul to be westernized, they just want it translated. 

  So what you're saying is that it is OK to treat women as sexual objects, and nothing else, if you do it in context of a particular culture where that is OK?   Do you realize that in a number of countries a woman who is raped will be sent to prison, and sometimes executed, because she didn't stop the rapist?  Would it be OK to have that in the game too?  You need to consider that showing respect to a different culture doesn't mean ignoring the parts of it that are abhorent.  Using your logic, there's nothing at all wrong with Qtar still allowing slavery. 

 

   Nope.  Doesn't work for me and such archaic and horrific things don't belong in this, or any other, game.

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Pim   

  So what you're saying is that it is OK to treat women as sexual objects, and nothing else, if you do it in context of a particular culture where that is OK?   Do you realize that in a number of countries a woman who is raped will be sent to prison, and sometimes executed, because she didn't stop the rapist?  Would it be OK to have that in the game too?  You need to consider that showing respect to a different culture doesn't mean ignoring the parts of it that are abhorent.  Using your logic, there's nothing at all wrong with Qtar still allowing slavery. 

 

   Nope.  Doesn't work for me and such archaic and horrific things don't belong in this, or any other, game.

 

OMG again one cant see different in Game and Real World 

 

but being a murder ingame is fine ? 

 

i dont know maybe you guys would start with Hello Kitty Online 

 

i cant say more as ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqjF7HKSaaI

Edited by Pim

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Once again, where is sexual objectification ? Once again, where is the r@pe story ?

 

Fu ... So much hypocrisy ...

Edited by Lichtsaule

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Once again, where is sexual objectification. Once again, where is the r@pe story ?

 

Fu ... So much hypocrisy ...

Did you not read the quote the OP included?

 

 

LastWriterStanding, on 18 Nov 2015 - 11:28 AM, said:

snapback.png

@LordXeen

Ah, that quest.  Oof.

 

Spoiler 

This particular NPC and quest chain was infamous among the team during localization.  I was personally in charge of rewriting the entire quest line and NPC interactions in what is now called the "A Scholarly Path" side-quest chain.  In the original version of the content, the NPC with the pun EN1 name "Ma Ture" was a misogynistic philanderer who, after having an affair with the wife of an official, ended up in prison for the insult.  He suffered some unspecified abuse there that rendered him sexually impotent.  As a result, the first few rounds of side-quests the PC does for him are essentially him sending the player out to find cures for his impotence.  In the quest you mentioned, he's being a peeping tom spying on women as they bathe.  He wants the PC to steal some of their clothes because he believes that the women are "nymphs" and, because of some local legend, they will be forced to marry him if he has their clothes.  In the end, it turns out the women were Lycandi and that the tribe has some kind of similar custom for an unexplained reason.  Ma Ture ends up being forced to marry one of them and impregnates her, despite being very vocal about not having any sort of feelings for her, thinking she's unattractive because she's got muscles, and passive-aggressively blaming the PC for ruining his life because he's stuck married to a woman he doesn't like.

 

The whole original quest chain is played for comedic purposes, focusing on a skeevy guy who gets his comeuppance.  The punchline boiled down to "Well, he's saddled with a woman he hates for the rest of his life, but at least he got his *cricket* back!"  The whole thing was presented in a very questionable manner that sent up a lot of red flags while the quests were under review.  The nature of the NPC, his actions, and the PC's involvement in them made pretty much everyone on the team really uncomfortable.  Doubly so considering there's another side quest in that same zone that deals with the fact that Lycandi women get kidnapped and enslaved.  It's one thing to have content in a mature-rated game that addresses sexuality or plays around with adult humor, but another entirely where it makes use of crass and frankly misogynistic concepts.  That sort of thing just isn't funny and it raised way more concerns than it did laughs.

 

In the current EN3, the entire quest chain and NPC have been re-written.  Effectively, the character was made into a decent human being who doesn't go around trying to force women into marriage against their will.  Now EN3'd as "Olgani", the NPC is a scholar who's studying the Lycandi in hopes of bringing their currently-at-odds communities together peacefully.  In previous quests where he sent the PC off to find what he believed to be home remedy versions of Viagra, instead he's asking the PC to help him research different aspects of the Lycandi's lifestyle to better understand them.  The bathing pool quest you mentioned earlier was changed to remove any degree of him spying on the women (while simultaneously poking fun at a bit of meta-humor from the writers involving confusion over the Lycandi character models).  The end of the quest chain has him meeting one of the women - a scholar herself among her own people, interested in learning more about his culture as he was about hers.

 

It's not a matter of censorship or anything like that.  There are a number of quests and NPC interactions in the game that go into playful innuendos and the like.  It's more a question of whether or not we wanted to include some genuinely questionable and uncomfortable content when we had the ability to make it something more welcoming.  When I'm presented with the choice of writing a character and story line that is pretty reprehensible without it being critical commentary on his actions, or reworking it to a more positive direction that isn't going to make me and others squirm, I'm not exactly going to hesitate to go for the latter.

 

Anyway, if you truly care to understand why people get upset over this kind of thing read this reddit thread. https://np.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/3249ff/women_of_reddit_when_did_you_first_notice_that/%20

 

The sensitivity to this kind of treatment of women even in fiction is because it happens every day to most women all over the world in real life and seeing it used carelessly in something like a game, for laughs or irrelevant storytelling in a tasteless manner that does not treat the subject material with the care and respect it deserves is offensive.

Edited by QueenSheba

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