Mage

Blade and Soul is being censored despite them previously saying otherwise.

Recommended Posts

Hiei   

Good. I'm glad you're offended. Sexually objectifying two generic male NPCs is the absolute least this game can do to equal the playing field with their sexualized fashion (disclaimer: i'm not complaining about it) and ridiculous "jiggle physics."

 

So basically you just admitted you don't actually have any principles about sexual objectification. You're simply trying to get even?

 

That's fine, just remember you're no longer able to argue against the principle of sexual objectifying women. Otherwise you'll just look like a massive hypocrite.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Waifu   

Good. I'm glad you're offended. Sexually objectifying two generic male NPCs is the absolute least this game can do to equal the playing field with their sexualized fashion (disclaimer: i'm not complaining about it) and ridiculous "jiggle physics."

 

And the mask comes off... You're simply a bigoted misandrist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We're really interested in the rich, vast, complicated and vivid story of the world of Blade & Soul? For real? This is news to me. And I like, super don't care.

 

Honestly Blade & Soul isn't a place to discuss feminism in video games. I'd love to do that, but any effort to dethrone it from its place as "the best example of how games are made for straight men and feminism is over" will be met with a whole lot of anger. The game sells itself on its women and the treatment of them, and it's cashed in on it for 4 years. You don't mess with perfection like that. It's cultural, this is gentrification, they're killing the story, blah blah blah. Who cares.

 

I know, I know, "go back to bioware games you fat ugly feminazi fgt!". Don't worry, I'm leaving. I have to go post on my tumblr about cultural appropriation or whatever. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So misandry is perfectly acceptable to you simply because it's some kind of karmic effect?

 

Good lord.

 

The thing that you people seem to not comprehend about misandry and misogyny is that it only becomes such when it's a prevalent theme and "institutionalized." For a game that would mean the sum of the fashion, the boobs, the treatment of female NPCs in quests, etc. So you have cited one example of men being objectified or sexualized. Care to provide more, specifically enough for it to become "thematic" of the entire game?

We're really interested in the rich, vast, complicated and vivid story of the world of Blade & Soul? For real? This is news to me. And I like, super don't care.

 

Honestly Blade & Soul isn't a place to discuss feminism in video games. I'd love to do that, but any effort to dethrone it from its place as "the best example of how games are made for straight men and feminism is over" will be met with a whole lot of anger. The game sells itself on its women and the treatment of them, and it's cashed in on it for 4 years. You don't mess with perfection like that. It's cultural, this is gentrification, they're killing the story, blah blah blah. Who cares.

 

I know, I know, "go back to bioware games you fat ugly feminazi fgt!". Don't worry, I'm leaving. I have to go post on my tumblr about cultural appropriation or whatever. 

 

The game did well in asian cultures where men would rather spend valentines day on an otaku "date" than have to speak to a real woman. Given the way they portray and regard women in their media, it's no surprise. That's not the case in the states, though I guess among the gaming population it may be the case because so many here have od'd on anime and manga and asian culture to the point that they think it's normal or acceptable in other cultures. 

And the mask comes off... You're simply a bigoted misandrist.

 

I'm trying to make the point of "how does it feel with the shoe on the other foot? Bad? Ok, now multiply that times a billion and get back to me."

 

But of course, it went over all of your heads. 

Not Women, Feminazis, please dont throw all women in with the crazies,

 

Weren't you going back to the dungeon, or whatever? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then are you ready to concede my point about it being wrong to glaze over a fictional tribe's traditions for the sake of adhering to a moral code they would have no business adhering to within the context of their world?

 

I was just about to leave this thread for good, but you keep contradicting yourself with every post you make.

You have been doing nothing but demonstrating a severe lack of reading comprehension and an incredible amount of confirmation bias with each post you make.

Nothing I have said contradicts itself.

- The real-world is used as a reference for everything we make in fiction. This is INHERENTLY TRUE, because otherwise we would have absolutely no basis for anything at all. Even the mere concept of ground being a thing we walk on is something we pulled from our reality. Sure, you can create a world where everyone walks on air, or on nothingness, but most people will find that difficult to deal with simply because it is a foundational principle of our reality.

- Fictional cultures can be based off of ideas WITHOUT EVER ACTUALLY BEING BASED OFF OF AN ACTUAL REAL-LIFE CULTURE. Fictional, fake, non-existent cultures by definition cannot be discriminated against by writing changes because they do not exist anywhere outside of the fictional universe within which they reside (though obviously in-universe discrimination is possible but that is an entirely separate matter and irrelevant to this particular subject).

- Female representation in games, on the other hand, is necessarily representative of women and possibly the writers' views on women. Even something as innocuous as not giving a woman any spoken lines says a LOT about that character's role in the story. Creating a fictional culture where women are always scantily clad is another way of leaning into the writers' views. There's no getting around this. It's simply self-evident.

Now where is the contradiction in anything I said?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Estribo   

The thing that you people seem to not comprehend about misandry and misogyny is that it only becomes such when it's a prevalent theme and "institutionalized." For a game that would mean the sum of the fashion, the boobs, the treatment of female NPCs in quests, etc. So you have cited one example of men being objectified or sexualized. Care to provide more, specifically enough for it to become "thematic" of the entire game?

 

So your issue is a viable issue because it is "institutionalized", but the other side of the coin is irrelevant because it's not? Are you seriously going to come in here and claim that something which you believe to be morally reprehensible is only so because a Korean development team made up primarily of men created the world it is featured in? And that the exact same treatment of the opposite sex, in the same game, is not morally reprehensible because of the fact that it was written in by largely men? You base your moral outlook upon a by-the-numbers weighing of the sexes of the involved persons?

 

I cannot fathom how utterly ridiculous that stance is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lurkios   

The thing that you people seem to not comprehend about misandry and misogyny is that it only becomes such when it's a prevalent theme and "institutionalized." For a game that would mean the sum of the fashion, the boobs, the treatment of female NPCs in quests, etc. So you have cited one example of men being objectified or sexualized. Care to provide more, specifically enough for it to become "thematic" of the entire game?

 

--------

mi·sog·y·ny
noun
dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.
--------
 
Would you care to point out which part of the definition led you to believe that misogyny is only misogyny if it's prevalent? I must admit my complete ignorance to that particular aspect.
 
I would also argue that a female both having breasts and wearing clothing we have no reason to believe isn't entirely of her own choosing isn't precisely the same as a man being locked in a cage due to his physical appearance.
Edited by Lurkios

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You need to pick up a news paper. I bet the muslim women in the middle east and India who are forced to marry their rapists, or being gang raped in public as "punishment" for something their brothers or fathers did would say they feel pretty sexually subjugated. Mail order brides from asian and slavic countries still exist as does human trafficking and sexual slavery. 

aka. actual problems... (read: not "sexist pantie theft"). They still go on in other countries, sadly =/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BroZartZ   

I've read through the issue over and over and I'm still not quite sure what the big deal is. It's just a quest... and a trivial one at best...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hiei   

The thing that you people seem to not comprehend about misandry and misogyny is that it only becomes such when it's a prevalent theme and "institutionalized." For a game that would mean the sum of the fashion, the boobs, the treatment of female NPCs in quests, etc. So you have cited one example of men being objectified or sexualized. Care to provide more, specifically enough for it to become "thematic" of the entire game?

 

DNH3PkB.jpg

 

You basically just argued sexual objectification is ok, but only when you do it. >.>

 

I don't mind sexual objectification in media, it's part of human nature & more important it's media, not real & doesn't hurt anyone. But if you're going to have a problem with it, at least be consistent.

Edited by Hiei

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll tell you what - you talk to that NPC, and you let us know how she would have felt about the whole scenario. If she expresses even the slightest amount of discomfort over the quest line I'll drop the argument entirely on my end.

 

My guess, she'll start spouting some drivel about cultural awareness and her studies. Ask her how her day was, cultural awareness and studies. There's a dragon behind you, cultural awareness and studies. Why? Because she's an NPC.

Annnnd?

That doesn't excuse shitty writing.

 

17 pages of this topic already?

 

How much has the point gone back and forth?

 

I didn't even know what the quest was about before this because it took so little time to do.

A few seconds if skipped, and you don't even need to do it, as it isn't part of the main story.

 

I guess I once again have a use for this image.

2ba.png

I've read through the issue over and over and I'm still not quite sure what the big deal is. It's just a quest... and a trivial one at best...

Yeah, just for the record, this is pretty much exactly my view on this whole thing.

I just can't help myself from getting caught up in these silly arguments because I really hate the naked sexism frequently present in threads like these.

Seriously, some folks are straight-up threatening to quit/get a refund because of these minor changes that they'll completely forget about in a day's time. Like, really? Haha! Where's the perspective?

Edited by Zyrusticae

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ikasu   

The hostility really should stop. If you want to have a discussion, go ahead. But insulting the opposing view isn't going to make your argument any more justified. In fact, all it's going to do is conceal the value of your whole argument because now you are clouded with emotion.

 

:wacko:

 

I think the whole thing is interesting though. Carry on as you wish, until the thread dies or gets locked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lurkios   

Annnnd?

That doesn't excuse shitty writing.

 

As you're fully aware, my response had nothing to do with the quality of the writing.

 

 

 

Seriously, some folks are straight-up threatening to quit/get a refund because of these minor changes that they'll completely forget about in a day's time. Like, really? Haha! Where's the perspective?

 

Some folks stand for their principals.

(And to be clear, for any potential future quotes - the principals of which I speak are anti-censorship, freedom of speech and free expression. Not misogyny. Nobody is trying to laud misogyny.)

Edited by Lurkios

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So your issue is a viable issue because it is "institutionalized", but the other side of the coin is irrelevant because it's not? Are you seriously going to come in here and claim that something which you believe to be morally reprehensible is only so because a Korean development team made up primarily of men created the world it is featured in? And that the exact same treatment of the opposite sex, in the same game, is not morally reprehensible because of the fact that it was written in by largely men? You base your moral outlook upon a by-the-numbers weighing of the sexes of the involved persons?

 

I cannot fathom how utterly ridiculous that stance is.

 

It's not irrelevant but it's not equal to the "exact same of the opposite sex" because all you have is that one, solitary example from a game literally littered with sexism towards women. 

 

 

--------

mi·sog·y·ny
noun
dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.
--------
 
Would you care to point out which part of the definition led you to believe that misogyny is only misogyny if it's prevalent? I must admit my complete ignorance to that particular aspect.
 
I would also argue that a female both having breasts and wearing clothing we have no reason to believe isn't entirely of her own choosing isn't precisely the same as a man being locked in a cage due to his physical appearance.

 

 

Pay closer attention to the body of that paragraph and not just the introductory sentence and also to what I was responding to. I think I already explained it sufficiently, but I guess I'll try again. Men writing a story where two men are revered for their looks to the point of being captured and held as trophies doesn't make the entire game negative towards men the same way that the entire game as a whole, with all those factors I listed, comes across as negative towards women. 

 

 

Done with this stupidity.

 

 

How many more times are you going to say it and still not leave?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ishtar   

I've read through the issue over and over and I'm still not quite sure what the big deal is. It's just a quest... and a trivial one at best...

 

Nuuh, it's not just a quest anymore, they've altered main quest to. Who knows what else they've altered. I had plan to rally to 45 with this beta's, then take my time with the story at launch, bummer.

I came to play and enjoy blade and soul not fan-fiction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Estribo   

You have been doing nothing but demonstrating a severe lack of reading comprehension and an incredible amount of confirmation bias with each post you make.

Nothing I have said contradicts itself.

- The real-world is used as a reference for everything we make in fiction. This is INHERENTLY TRUE, because otherwise we would have absolutely no basis for anything at all. Even the mere concept of ground being a thing we walk on is something we pulled from our reality. Sure, you can create a world where everyone walks on air, or on nothingness, but most people will find that difficult to deal with simply because it is a foundational principle of our reality.

- Fictional cultures can be based off of ideas WITHOUT EVER ACTUALLY BEING BASED OFF OF AN ACTUAL REAL-LIFE CULTURE. Fictional, fake, non-existent cultures by definition cannot be discriminated against by writing changes because they do not exist anywhere outside of the fictional universe within which they reside (though obviously in-universe discrimination is possible but that is an entirely separate matter and irrelevant to this particular subject).

- Female representation in games, on the other hand, is necessarily representative of women and possibly the writers' views on women. Even something as innocuous as not giving a woman any spoken lines says a LOT about that character's role in the story. Creating a fictional culture where women are always scantily clad is another way of leaning into the writers' views. There's no getting around this. It's simply self-evident.

Now where is the contradiction in anything I said?

 

You just claimed that a fictional culture "by definition cannot be discriminated against by writing changes because they do not exist anywhere outside of the fictional universe within which they reside". You then claimed that "in-universe discrimination is possible but that is an entirely separate matter and irrelevant to this particular subject." That is a contradiction. Discrimination does not cease to be such simply because the parties involved are not "real". Furthermore, what exactly is "in-universe discrimination"? Would that not be considered simple "discrimination", as the person making the judgement is, ya know, the player?

 

But let's continue on with that line of thinking. A fictional culture is not "real" "because it does not exist anywhere outside of the fictional universe within which it resides". You can take that in two different directions:

 

1. True. Fictional actors cannot be judged by outside views because they are fake. Granted. Now, however, you have removed your ability to judge any other actor on similar grounds. The Lycandi are not real. The woman forced to marry the man is not real. "Women are real." "Tribal societies are real". "This tribal society is clearly imagined." "That woman is clearly imagined". You cannot apply real world labels to a fictional setting, if your statement is true.

 

2. False. Fictional actors can be judged by outside views because they were written by human beings, who are naturally predisposed to bring their views, experiences, and morals into their creations. If your statement is false, then both our points have the possibility to be applicable.

 

You have claimed that my position is wrong because a fictional society cannot be viewed as legitimate enough to care about. I have claimed that my position must be true, in order for the possibility of your argument about misogyny being present in this game to be legitimate. By holding to the notion that your statement is true while mine is false, you have undermined your own position.

 

Regardless, I'm only harping on this point because I'm hearing so much disgust being leveled at the scenario in the original questline, where a 'vile' man traps a woman into a loveless marriage. On the flipside, I'm not hearing any outcry against a very similarly worrying (assuming you subscribe to an egalitarian bent) case being present that flips the roles. Why the ire against only a specific type of injustice? Is the goal of this 'fixer-upper' effort not to protect us impressionable players from being influenced by the objectionable content in the other versions of this game?

 

I should add, I find your last bullet point quite disturbing: "Female representation in games, on the other hand, is necessarily representative of women and possibly the writers' views on women. Even something as innocuous as not giving a woman any spoken lines says a LOT about that character's role in the story. Creating a fictional culture where women are always scantily clad is another way of leaning into the writers' views. There's no getting around this. It's simply self-evident."

 

That's so presumptive it might as well be an admission to possessing psychic powers. Does the fact that the Lyn are present in this game necessarily oust the development team as pedophiles? Does the presence of violence within the game necessarily inform us on their views about the preciousness of human life? There is no end point with this kind of accusation, and it really worries me. If we are to assume that the presentation of a specific subject makes a writer/director/designer's views "self-evident", then we are consuming a lot of material created by sociopaths.

Edited by Estribo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@everyone who has posted more than twice in this thread- don't you have better things to do?

 

All arguments that the NCsoft team needs to see has been said, and the only thing left is two sides attempting to convince each other (which won't happen).

There's no need to even post anymore. Everything is available to be read.

 

Personally, I've spammed F and Y on all quests so far, not sure when unique side quests kick in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lurkios   

Whelp, this is my stop.

 

If anyone cares for a game of Battlefront before the next beta look me up, same name.

Edited by Lurkios

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DNH3PkB.jpg

 

You basically just argued sexual objectification is ok, but only when you do it. >.>

 

I don't mind sexual objectification in media, it's part of human nature & more important it's media, not real & doesn't hurt anyone. But if you're going to have a problem with it, at least be consistent.

 

#NuffSaid

 

22f1859164124ddac16ad217d74cfe09185b865b

 

Also this is not the only one quest who had been altered, keep that in mind

 

Like someone said above, I want to play a fully raw Blade & Soul, not a fan-fiction.

Edited by Lichtsaule

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is why games will never mature, any time some first worlder gets triggered by content, it gets turned into a "safe space" so they can keep being a child.

Grow up. Reality is cold and hard.

 

 

I wish tumblr landwhale "feminists" would kill themselves and save this world from their stupidity and ignornane.

-A girl that actually plays games for fun and does not blame males for her lack of mental capacity (aka opressing her)

Don't even quote me. I won't bother replying. Your stupidity is not worth my time.

Sounds like you have

internalized misogyny
 =^)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nuuh, it's not just a quest anymore, they've altered main quest to. Who knows what else they've altered. I had plan to rally to 45 with this beta's, then take my time with the story at launch, bummer.

I came to play and enjoy blade and soul not fan-fiction.

There are only two changes to the main story quest:

1. The time travel being changed to 'clairvoyance', a perhaps unnecessary change but not in any way related to censorship

2. The Lycandi elder being changed to be ageist instead of sexist - which, honestly, is a change that I don't really see the point of but is so minor I can't be arsed to decry either way

 

The rest of the story, including all the major story beats, are exactly the same.

Also, you got it backwards. You should take your time with the story during the beta so you can rush at launch, because everything is getting wiped during the beta anyway.

 

You just claimed that a fictional culture "by definition cannot be discriminated against by writing changes because they do not exist anywhere outside of the fictional universe within which they reside". You then claimed that "in-universe discrimination is possible but that is an entirely separate matter and irrelevant to this particular subject." That is a contradiction.

I'm gonna have to stop you right there.

You guys keep going on about the separation of reality and fiction. With this statement you have definitively proven that you do not understand how the separation of reality and fiction works.

Changes by writing to the nature of a fictional civilization are simply changes. And these happen ALL THE TIME. Especially during pre-release drafts. Changing up how a fictional culture operates has nothing to do with 'harming' or 'discriminating against' that fictional culture because they're being made up from a series of ideas.

In-universe discrimination occurs when other actors WITHIN THE FICTION - note, this is very important, and if you have trouble with this concept I suggest looking into the difference between "in-character" and "out-of-character" in roleplaying - engage in discriminatory activity against the culture in question. In other words, like a representation of the Nazis subjugating the Jews, or the settlers subjugating the native Americans.

One side - the real-world writers creating this culture - is responsible for the features of that culture, and what features those writers are giving that culture says a lot about what they're trying to get across to the reader. The other side - the in-universe side - is that culture as it exists within the fictional universe, once the work is complete.

This distinction is extremely important, especially in role-playing. A role-player that has difficulty separating the out-of-character reality from the in-character fiction can be very hard to deal with because they'll take anything negative that happens to their character as a personal slight. But wait, you say, doesn't that sound exactly like a feminist who can't deal with bad things happening in games??

No, because there is a nuance here. You expect SOME separation between the in-universe fiction and the out-of-universe reality, but no one is immune to becoming attached from their characters and, furthermore, no one is immune to the limits of bad taste. If a female roleplayer just wants to play the game and go through a neat story like everyone else, and both the DM and other players are going out of their way to sexualize her character, yeah, she's going to feel unwelcome, and yeah, she's going to have second thoughts about the whole shebang. That doesn't mean that abhorrent things happening are completely off the table - but it does mean that you have to know exactly what people are comfortable with before trying to breach those boundaries.

A large commercial product like this does not have the luxury of polling each and every single player and customizing the experience to their needs. They can only play it safe. Compromise. There's no way to please everybody, so they just try to please the greatest amount of people they possibly can. And oftentimes this means acting without clear guidelines and going by their gut instincts. (In this case, the entire writing team unanimously agreed, so their collective 'insticts' are all in alignment on this issue.)

So again - the Lycandi never existed. They're a fictional race with a fictional culture created specifically for this game. They can be discriminated against in-universe by other inhabitants of that world, but changes to that race only changes the actual culture because it is the writers dictating (OH GAWD THE HORROR) those changes, which is not a form of discrimination but instead a form of retconning. This sort of thing happens all the time. I can only assume that a lot of you folks are being exposed to it for the first time in your lives or something, because this is only the tip of the iceberg. There are SO MANY WORKS where changes like this occur, many of them minor, some major, but they get away with it, too. Because it's fiction. It's not real. But it can affect real people. Do you see the distinction I am making here?

Seriously, look it up. In-character. Out-of-character. The process of writing fiction. All of it. I think this entire thread would benefit greatly from an elevating of the discourse, and that's not going to happen if we're still arguing about the very basics of writing fiction like this.

Edited by Zyrusticae

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Shy0   

i only read through the opening post and skimmed through the rest. my thoughts:

 

- original quest seems pretty funny

 

- this game should have a mature esrb rating already

 

- some people are taking this game waaaaaaaaay too seriously

 

- some people are taking the actions of the localisation team waaaaaaaaay too seriously

 

- if the behaviour of people in this thread represented everybody, humanity would have destroyed itself sometime yesterday. thank RNGesus and the lord gaben this is just a game forum

 

- i don't need ncwest to be my moral guardian

 

- but it's their game, so they can do what they want with it

 

- poor korean dev who wrote the original questline. bet he never would have thought that the "western audience" would be so overbearingly politically-correct that they would castrate his work

 

- i don't need random people on a cupcaking game forum to be my moral guardians

 

- and if you're complaining about this quest objectifying women.. really? bet you haven't seen the torpedo bewbs or the unrealistic proportions or the tits-and-ass parade

 

- you're the customer, you do what you want with your money

 

- if this is the game community i'm joining, i'll think about getting a refund

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
EroGG   

One side - the real-world writers creating this culture - is responsible for the features of that culture, and what features those writers are giving that culture says a lot about what they're trying to get across to the reader. The other side - the in-universe side - is that culture as it exists within the fictional universe, once the work is complete.

This distinction is extremely important, especially in role-playing. A role-player that has difficulty separating the out-of-character reality from the in-character fiction can be very hard to deal with because they'll take anything negative that happens to their character as a personal slight. But wait, you say, doesn't that sound exactly like a feminist who can't deal with bad things happening in games??

No, because there is a nuance here. You expect SOME separation between the in-universe fiction and the out-of-universe reality, but no one is immune to becoming attached from their characters and, furthermore, no one is immune to the limits of bad taste. If a female roleplayer just wants to play the game and go through a neat story like everyone else, and both the DM and other players are going out of their way to sexualize her character, yeah, she's going to feel unwelcome, and yeah, she's going to have second thoughts about the whole shebang. That doesn't mean that abhorrent things happening are completely off the table - but it does mean that you have to know exactly what people are comfortable with before trying to breach those boundaries.

1. In this case the changes weren't made by the writers who created the culture.

2. Is that really a bad thing? The story should have ups and downs for your charcter in order to make it more compelling and believable.

3. And this is related to BnS how?

 

A large commercial product like this does not have the luxury of polling each and every single player and customizing the experience to their needs. They can only play it safe. Compromise. There's no way to please everybody, so they just try to please the greatest amount of people they possibly can. And oftentimes this means acting without clear guidelines and going by their gut instincts. (In this case, the entire writing team unanimously agreed, so their collective 'insticts' are all in alignment on this issue.)

Their "compromise" seems to have pissed off their core fans. The writting team should be fired. They not only butchered parts of the story, but even when they stuck to the original they made the dialogue nonsensical and cringeworthy. I would not be surprised if their hiring was the result of quotas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.