Mage

Blade and Soul is being censored despite them previously saying otherwise.

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Not that any of these arguments matter at this point. Reminder that 'we' won in the end, and that the quest is never going to be reverted to the original. Better get to modding, folks! ;)

 

"We" won? Dude way to go for being an armchair activist, this change was made without any of the community's input and was never supposed to be up for feedback, no one can win in this situation

The amount of rewrites this game is getting is downright disgusting, and some don't make even any sense, but who cares right? What the community thinks is not the business of the localization team

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"We're" Speak for yourself please, just because you have issues with the concept of how a Fantasy setting with an entirely different culture then yours tests Suitors to make them earn a mate, Does not mean every female has this same issue. 

 

This issue of "women being sexually subjugated" Is utterly and completely laughable, that is the past. please come into the present with the rest of us, Let me guess next your going to want to burn every copy of pride and prejudice because it shows a world view you would never agree with?

 

Your forcing your ideals onto a tribal society that in the end you do not even REALIZE the implications, the man didnt "force himself" on the woman, he doesnt even find her attractive and was trying to find another woman to be with, instead he is forced to marry the woman or she will BREAK HIM. because it is HER tribal custom. If any one should be offended or have issue with it, it would be the MALE. 

 

Just because another culture is beyond your understanding doesn't give you the right to just throw your own views and ideals into the ring just because you THINK, you know better.

This is why America is what, the ONLY country of monoglots? It's also why we constantly offend other cultures when we travel :|

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So a fictional case of 'cultural appropriation' is fine and dandy, but a fictional case of 'misogyny' is not?

 

If you are going to treat this as a work of fiction, with the ensuing stance that nothing in it matters because it's "ENTIRELY MADE-UP. INVENTED.", then you should have had no issue with the source material's presentation. Since I know for a fact that you did have an issue with the original, you have contradicted the basis for your own argument.

Already knew you'd go down that route.

Here's the deal: women are real, they, we actually exist. This fictional culture does not exist.

Using your analogy, IF a video game did in fact have an actual representation of native Americans and that representation was an inaccurate, stereotypical representation, it would still be shit and it would still need to be fixed, because the only way to be respectful of an actual Earth culture is to reproduce that culture accurately.

Fictional cultures, by definition, cannot be reproduced accurately because they are based on a whole lot of nothing. There's no one available in the real world to speak for them because they don't exist.

Meanwhile, women make up 51% of the Earth's population and are quite capable of speaking out against fictional misogyny. Which is pretty much what they did in this case and what they will continue to do for the foreseeable future.

Note that this does not preclude the possibility of NUANCED discussions on misogyny in fictional stories. There is a huge difference between blindly reproducing a sexist act and actually having a commentary on that sexist act. The biggest and most important thing here is that there must be a follow-up on the woman's reaction and views on the matter. If you completely gloss over the woman's point of view and pretend she has nothing to say, yeah, that's bloody misogynist and, yeah, people aren't going to react well to it.

Women have had their views repressed and ignored for the better part of centuries. No shit they're not going to take this crap lying down.

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Naunet   

"We're" Speak for yourself please, just because you have issues with the concept of how a Fantasy setting with an entirely different culture then yours tests Suitors to make them earn a mate, Does not mean every female has this same issue. 

 

This issue of "women being sexually subjugated" Is utterly and completely laughable, that is the past. please come into the present with the rest of us,

 

Classic. If you seriously believe that women are still not dealing with centuries of ingrained discrimination against them, their sexuality, and things/characteristics typically considered "feminine" (take a look at all the guys who are shamed for expressing emotion or even displaying a hint of what's normally associated with femininity), then you need a serious reality check.

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Rahaya   

Already knew you'd go down that route.

Here's the deal: women are real, they, we actually exist. This fictional culture does not exist.

Using your analogy, IF a video game did in fact have an actual representation of native Americans and that representation was an inaccurate, stereotypical representation, it would still be shit and it would still need to be fixed, because the only way to be respectful of an actual Earth culture is to reproduce that culture accurately.

Fictional cultures, by definition, cannot be reproduced accurately because they are based on a whole lot of nothing. There's no one available in the real world to speak for them because they don't exist.

Meanwhile, women make up 51% of the Earth's population and are quite capable of speaking out against fictional misogyny. Which is pretty much what they did in this case and what they will continue to do for the foreseeable future.

Note that this does not preclude the possibility of NUANCED discussions on misogyny in fictional stories. There is a huge difference between blindly reproducing a sexist act and actually having a commentary on that sexist act. The biggest and most important thing here is that there must be a follow-up on the woman's reaction and views on the matter. If you completely gloss over the woman's point of view and pretend she has nothing to say, yeah, that's bloody misogynist and, yeah, people aren't going to react well to it.

Women have had their views repressed and ignored for the better part of centuries. No shit they're not going to take this crap lying down.

So in other words, the butchering of Asian names. The removal of terminology and cultural references for being too foreign. The fact that the PC had to be called something Asiany that isn't even a real world but is being passed off in the game like it is one, is also a super important issue because Asia exists.

 

Well?

 

Get that thread started!

 

EDIT: And what is with this 'they' and 'we' stuff? I don't recall voting for you to represent me.

 

DOUBLE EDIT: If I recall correctly, the rewrite didn't give a voice to the woman either. So clearly, in that regard it's not any better. The real question is, why should it? The quest chain was about him. He's the main character in this little side story. I think you've lost your teeth in this argument, if you're coming up with stuff that the rewrite doesn't even address either. 

Edited by Rahaya

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This game is a 'Mature' game.


 

If ppl really want to see nudity, perversion, and subjective behavior to women then maybe they should just quit this game now and go play Scarlet Blade! I enjoy the game for what it is, "A good game!" As long as they aren't going to make it pay to win or make the storyline suck, I will be happy! Those that have not played the uncensored version of this game will not know what was changed and most of them probably do not even care because this isn't what brought them to this game in the first place, I can guarantee you that! Alot of you sound like this is such a big deal that you would quit this game over something like this! Truthfully compared to how many others that will stay over those who will leave over this is the least of NCSoft's worries. There are cultural differences between the East and West and both censor things based upon the laws put in order. It is not the publisher's choice less they be shut down by the ESRB. I understand that this game is rated (17+) Mature but that doesn't mean it should have nudity in it! Tera is rated Mature and does not have nudity either.

 

Point being is there are things not even the publisher has control over. For the person in charge of localizing the game for the west pushing, "his own agenda" I believe what he said was completely misunderstood/twisted to the point it no longer was anywhere close to its original meaning. People usually have a reason for the things they do but from what I've read this guy simply did these things because he felt like it does not make any sense to me. Its more or less like me saying I disagree with you all only because I know it makes you all mad! See how stupid that is now?

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Purple   

I think people have gone way of track here.

The thread was about content change thats not needed, its a simple concept really.

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Cadenza   

I haven't been keeping much track of this thread, but did they really change Yuran's name to Yura simply because "it sounded too close to urine"????

Are you *cricket*ing serious?

 

Not to mention changing the Kun race to Yun. For what reason?

 

This safespace babying is ridiculous and I honestly feel this is insulting to the original material and to me, as a consumer.

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Lurkios   
Its more or less like me saying I disagree with you all only because I know it makes you all mad! See how stupid that is now?

 

 

I think you underestimate just how petty people can be.

 

 

No, Im going to stick here irritating you till this thread dies and you go back to the dojo forums and stay there.

 

I hope and suggest Moderators close this thread.

 

----

 

Regardless, yes - the writer (note: /writer/, not "translator") did have a reason for what they did. They found the original text offensive, stated it made them uncomfortable and thus changed it.

 

Aside from the obvious question of why writers were hired where translators were needed - I don't care what made this team of writers uncomfortable and I don't care for their forcing their sensitivities on me. I'm a big boy, I'll decide what my limits are all on my own.

Edited by Lurkios

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Ikasu   

While I too would have preferred the original titles, it doesn't make a lot of difference if you call a rose a flower, a blossom. While something is lost, as was the case with the name changes, it doesn't change the context of the story.

My point there is that if your concern is about preserving the game as is with all it's traditional/culture sense, you should be more concerned with those kinds of localization issues more so than this uh... "censorship" issue. Reason being while this instance is of a side quest, the name-squishing thing and title changes (as Yuri Takashi pointed out) affects various NPCs that the player interacts with throughout the whole game. If this censorship issue is the only thing that really bothers you, there's no reason to have to care about what I said. Just people in general cannot hide behind the wall of "it's a part of Eastern tradition and culture, you shouldn't censor it" if they're perfectly fine with traditional names and titles being, well... slaughtered.

 

Personally, I'm not offended by the original quest, and I don't think it should be taken so offensively either. But that's just my opinion, and I can't even say it's a fair, unbiased one because I've lived with Eastern tradition, so to me it might be obvious while not to others. I've been told often that I'm blunt and cold by Westerners. The problem here is whether it is justified or not, it CAN be taken offensively. And this kind of thing will cause a problem for the game and its company when taken like that. Whether this was the right way to go about fixing the problem, I don't think so,  but it's clear from some of the responses here that it could have caused a problem with words like *cricket* and mistreatment of women. Clearly you'd want to avoid that as any gaming business.

 

For me, the best thing that could have happened was for everything to be literally translated as is, and anything deemed "not appropriate" for the Western audience, explained. Honestly, all they had to do here was explain the "local legend" as a folktale from childhood, properly tell the tale (I have no clue if they did before the changes, like I said before I didn't do this quest), and add a bit more detail here and there. But the general population doesn't actually care about this side story, or even preserving the tradition of the game. They're just here to play the game with pretty art. That is fact. And it's obvious that BnS has decided to cater towards the majority of their players (who don't care) while attempting a quick fix on a potential problem, using as little resources as possible. In that regard I don't think it was wrong of them, but I don't think they expected this backlash.

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Purple   

sorry purple, it just seems any time Zy and Nau are involved SJW i mean Feminist.. i mean minority group opinions get thrust in some how with walls of text to try and silence the majority

Its fine they're the people im talking about, at the end of the day non of its real and no one should be getting offended by it.

Feminists just make things worse for woman at the end of the day, thats just an opinion dont kill me, but this topic has nothing to do with that. People that like the story just want to play it in original form in English.

Edited by Purple

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jazdevi   

The censorship is unnecessary and unwelcome, in my opinion. I cannot fathom why a small team of writers was allowed to force their tastes on the entirety of the NA audience and I find that fact that they were not only allowed, but directed to do so incredibly disappointing. There is absolutely no reason an M rated MMO needs to read like a children's book.

 

The world isn't perfect, lets not pretend that it is.

This sums it up perfectly. I hate when things are changed and censored because of the opinions of an easily offended minority. For once, can't you people just laugh at the joke instead of labeling it racist or misogynistic. I can't stand political correctness. It's destroying the world.

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Shekinah   

I have read through all posts so far and I decided to also voice my opinion on this matter.

First of all, I haven’t played long enough during 2nd beta to meet the Lycandi nor another version of the game. So, I have to rely on the information I found in this thread. Without this topic I would probably never heard of this change.

 

The new, localized version of this quest is okay in my humble opinion as it has a focus on the topic of other cultures traditions. Still, the original version has this as well but also the aspect of a man, with a bad attitude toward women. In the end he pretty much gets smacked in the face from karma as he is forced to marry a women he doesn’t find attractive, but being a warrior, is likely able to beat him up if he continues to be a philanderer.

For me this is karma at its best or “you reap what you sow”. He got what he deserved and I see no reason to change the quest entirely.

 

If you’re wondering why I haven’t addressed the whole “panty stealing issue”. Well, I don’t think this should be or is the intended point of the quest. Stealing (panties), sexual harassment or adultery are, for me and many others, despicable manners. For the Lycandi stealing clothes/panties seems to be somewhat tolerated or normal as it is connected to their marriage traditions.

Considering all, what I learned here, of this quest I fail to see what would make you uncomfortable about this one.

Actually, maybe the whole quest line would have been alright if they added a conversation with her to get her view on things. Maybe.

I think this would have been a better way to deal with this quest.

 

Considering the complete erasing of the female/male topic in the Lycandi storyline I think it is pity. It gave the whole story another deeper meaning that is also relevant to our own real society.

To sum it all up: I would love to see and play the game as closely to the original as it was made.

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Lurkios   

My point there is that if your concern is about preserving the game as is with all it's traditional/culture sense, you should be more concerned with those kinds of localization issues more so than this uh... "censorship" issue.

 

I disagree. Once again, I would have preferred the names to be left in a romanized form of their originals and personally I find excuses like "It vaguely sounded like something that could be construed as offensive." or "It was hard to pronounce." to be asinine. However, in the end, whether it's Jack or Jim that rolled down the hill he's still dead in the end.

 

The censorship I find to be an abhorrent practice - one that very much does change the tale and the execution of which was, in this case, poor at best.

 

 

Actually, maybe the whole quest line would have been alright if they added a conversation with her to get her view on things. Maybe.

 

While I should think her "view on things" would be easily enough ascertained as to not require a separate dialogue, this would be a viable compromise as it does remove the "censorship" element. I think many fewer (though still, undoubtedly, some) would object to additional story.

Edited by Lurkios

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Estribo   

Already knew you'd go down that route.

Here's the deal: women are real, they, we actually exist. This fictional culture does not exist.

Using your analogy, IF a video game did in fact have an actual representation of native Americans and that representation was an inaccurate, stereotypical representation, it would still be shit and it would still need to be fixed, because the only way to be respectful of an actual Earth culture is to reproduce that culture accurately.

Fictional cultures, by definition, cannot be reproduced accurately because they are based on a whole lot of nothing. There's no one available in the real world to speak for them because they don't exist.

Meanwhile, women make up 51% of the Earth's population and are quite capable of speaking out against fictional misogyny. Which is pretty much what they did in this case and what they will continue to do for the foreseeable future.

Note that this does not preclude the possibility of NUANCED discussions on misogyny in fictional stories. There is a huge difference between blindly reproducing a sexist act and actually having a commentary on that sexist act. The biggest and most important thing here is that there must be a follow-up on the woman's reaction and views on the matter. If you completely gloss over the woman's point of view and pretend she has nothing to say, yeah, that's bloody misogynist and, yeah, people aren't going to react well to it.

Women have had their views repressed and ignored for the better part of centuries. No shit they're not going to take this crap lying down.

 

You are still attempting to build a house on a sand foundation.

 

If this is a fictional work dealing with content which does not exist in the real world and has no basis or bearing therein, then nothing from the real world ought to be reverse injected into said fictional work, because the real world has no bearing upon a work of fiction. *cricket* for tat.

 

You cannot claim that the Lycandi people "don't exist", then turn around and claim a specific Lycandi woman exists just enough to get offended on her behalf. After all, by your own argument, "Fictional cultures, by definition, cannot be reproduced accurately because they are based on a whole lot of nothing." That is false, but that is the assertion you have made in your post. Going by that same logic, any concept of a fictional species' sexual dimorphism is also "based on a whole lot of nothing", since apparently human beings are incapable of drawing inspiration from the past and present of the world they inhabit to create orderly, reasonable fictional universes for us to enjoy. That being the case, there is no such thing as a Lycandi woman. There is no such thing as a Lycandi man. There is no such thing as 'male' or 'female' in a work of fiction at all. These aren't real people, so why should we classify or moralize them according to the standards of real people?

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Ikasu   

I disagree. Once again, I would have preferred the names to be left in a romanized form of their originals and personally I find excuses like "It vaguely sounded like something that could be construed as offensive." or "It was hard to pronounce." to be asinine. However, in the end, whether it's Jack or Jim that rolled down the hill he's still dead in the end.

 

The censorship I find to be an abhorrent practice - one that very much does change the tale and the execution of which was, in this case, poor at best.

 

My point there is that if your concern is about preserving the game as is with all it's traditional/culture sense, you should be more concerned with those kinds of localization issues more so than this uh... "censorship" issue.

 

If this censorship issue is the only thing that really bothers you, there's no reason to have to care about what I said. Just people in general cannot hide behind the wall of "it's a part of Eastern tradition and culture, you shouldn't censor it" if they're perfectly fine with traditional names and titles being, well... slaughtered.

 

Edit: Some explanation.

 

If you want to argue that this censorship is such a terrible practice that guts the Western audience from the original story, then altering the name does the exact same thing. It prevents the Western audience from interaction with original character names.

 

The reason why I'm making Korean names seem so significant is because each character in a Korean name has a meaning. The reason why Jin Seo Yeon can share such a "common" family name but not be related to any of the other NPCs that share that same family name is because there are different meanings and different ways to write (sort of, explaining it gets more complex) the common Korean character "Jin". The name given to the main antagonist of the story was chosen carefully with consideration of each characters' meaning. The change destroyed all of that, and now it's just a plain name, with it's origins destroyed.

 

Now if you didn't know any of that, perhaps now that you do, you see how it matters. But before, you didn't care because you didn't know. If you were kept without that information, you would have never seen how it's an issue. The general player base at launch won't know the exact changes behind this side quest, because the only way you could have is to have access to this knowledge outside of this particular version. The company catered to that.

 

Do I think that's the right way to go about it? Nah. I sure as hell would have liked to keep everything original. But this is the fix the company decided to implement.

 

If you have a problem with it, what should have been done is someone should have made a post about the changes in general, and this as one of the examples. Because a problem with the whole game is more significant than just some lines of a side quest. And if NCsoft sees that them trying to edit this stuff out is causing a general problem, they'll be more hesitant to do so.

Edited by Ikasu

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Purple   

You are still attempting to build a house on a sand foundation.

 

If this is a fictional work dealing with content which does not exist in the real world and has no basis or bearing therein, then nothing from the real world ought to be reverse injected into said fictional work, because the real world has no bearing upon a work of fiction. *cricket* for tat.

 

You cannot claim that the Lycandi people "don't exist", then turn around and claim a specific Lycandi woman exists just enough to get offended on her behalf. After all, by your own argument, "Fictional cultures, by definition, cannot be reproduced accurately because they are based on a whole lot of nothing." That is false, but that is the assertion you have made in your post. Going by that same logic, any concept of a fictional species' sexual dimorphism is also "based on a whole lot of nothing", since apparently human beings are incapable of drawing inspiration from the past and present of the world they inhabit to create orderly, reasonable fictional universes for us to enjoy. That being the case, there is no such thing as a Lycandi woman. There is no such thing as a Lycandi man. There is no such thing as 'male' or 'female' in a work of fiction at all. These aren't real people, so why should we classify or moralize them according to the standards of real people?

Cookies for this Guy/Girl, bang on.

Edited by Purple

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1. Just refer to my post above about why porn is not ok but war is. Basically people know that violence is wrong but they don't necessarily know what kind of sexual behavior is wrong.

 

This exactly. What is most offensive to me is the people in this thread asking "what's the big deal? it's just clothing." These people have no concept of boundaries or acceptable behavior towards the opposite sex. 

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Estribo   

This exactly. What is most offensive to me is the people in this thread asking "what's the big deal? it's just clothing." These people have no concept of boundaries or acceptable behavior towards the opposite sex. 

 

Actually, I don't generally steal the clothing of women while they're bathing.

 

My momma raised me right.

 

Joking aside, read my responses if you want the point of view of someone who acknowledges those claiming that this is an exercise in "panty theft".

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Little J   

I feel like this topic has run its course and people now are just barking, trying to prove points that really don't matter when it comes down to it, since they won't result in changing the final game.

It's clear that NCWest has made their decision and no amount of arguing is going to alter their stance.

I'm sure this has been said several times, but what we should be doing at this point is starting a true translation mod project for those that want to enjoy the story in its entiredy.

Edited by Little J

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